NIN Opener / Rotation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Craiger

There is no Doton in that "guide" for the AoE part... Which is a DPS loss.

Doton does 240 potency, and Koton does just 180. If Kassatsu is up, you should do Koton -> Kassatsu -> Doton. Yes, Doton crits....

---

Was thinking about this just last night. Sounds like Doton > Katon in all AoE situations unless mobs won't live long enough for duration, or if the situation you listed where you can use both with Kassatsu. Am I understanding that right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Craiger

There is no Doton in that "guide" for the AoE part... Which is a DPS loss.

---

He's right. Doton > Katon IF the pack of mobs is alive for 19+ seconds and agrees to stand in the fire, which is rare in my experience. Also, it's not much but, Katon is a .5 second faster cast and doesn't have a positional req. So, I guess it's good if you've traded your party's BLM for a tank with lead feet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaala

Was thinking about this just last night. Sounds like Doton > Katon in all AoE situations unless mobs won't live long enough for duration, or if the situation you listed where you can use both with Kassatsu. Am I understanding that right?

---

on paper doton looks stronger. but 24s is a pretty long time with death blossom every 2s + your other party doing AoE. I don't think i've run into a lot of situations where Doton gets to fully tick on anything if I do a buffed katon first while spamming buffed dbs

on another note though doton, and hyoton are amazing in pvp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

on paper doton looks stronger. but 24s is a pretty long time with death blossom every 2s + your other party doing AoE. I don't think i've run into a lot of situations where Doton gets to fully tick on anything if I do a buffed katon first while spamming buffed dbs

on another note though doton, and hyoton are amazing in pvp.

---

I don't know what scenarios you are talking about, but you pre-cast B4B/IR and your Katon so that you can cast it as soon as the enemies are in position, and then quickly do Kassatsu -> Doton... And Doton only needs to last for 18 secs to be as good as Katon, meaning that if the enemies last for more than like 20 seconds, it's worth doing Doton. With Ninja's crappy AoE dps, they usually last more than that.

No point in arguing about it though... It still sucks :)

When we parse our Ninjas we count from the first move cast. The cast of Huton initiates the parse, if you are waiting the 10 - 20 secs before attacking that should be included into the number as zero DPS. That's 10-20 seconds of no dps. Otherwise you are legitimately loading the number to a very circumstantial degree. Most situations do not allow you to stand there and wait for your cool down and for all intents this should be counted against your dps. From an objective context any move that results in unsheathing your weapon should be counted as the initiation of a parse.

Another downside to going straight into TA is that you aren't capturing most of the team dps burst in the ten second window as most take a few GCDS to get to their sweet spot so you would be again falsely inflating your own dps but in this instance at the expense of your teams average.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

snip.

---

Okay so while your party is casting stoneskin/protect/succor prepull everyone in your party is counting zero DPS because the fight started right? 8 stoneskins at the most 2.5s per Stoneskin, It's very easy to prebuff huton during this time.

By your logic while the Whms and Scholars are prebuffing the party I should run at the enemy before everyone else is ready.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

Another downside to going straight into TA is that you aren't capturing most of the team dps burst in the ten second window as most take a few GCDS to get to their sweet spot so you would be again falsely inflating your own dps but in this instance at the expense of your teams average.

---

I somewhat agree with this, for monk / drg this is true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

Another downside to going straight into TA is that you aren't capturing most of the team dps burst in the ten second window as most take a few GCDS to get to their sweet spot so you would be again falsely inflating your own dps but in this instance at the expense of your teams average.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mardel

I somewhat agree with this, for monk / drg this is true.

---

Even starting the fight with Huton (which you'd better fcking do), a Ninja isn't going to be immediately using TA. It's going to be around 8-12 seconds, plenty of time for any decent Monk to have GL3 from PB and a Dragoon will likely be applying Chaos Thrust in time to catch the vulnerability. It couldn't be more perfect for the other melee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

When we parse our Ninjas we count from the first move cast. The cast of Huton initiates the parse, if you are waiting the 10 - 20 secs before attacking that should be included into the number as zero DPS. That's 10-20 seconds of no dps. Otherwise you are legitimately loading the number to a very circumstantial degree. Most situations do not allow you to stand there and wait for your cool down and for all intents this should be counted against your dps. From an objective context any move that results in unsheathing your weapon should be counted as the initiation of a parse.

---

From an objective context any attack should be counted as the initiation of a parse, not any action. Not a buff. Enrage timer starts upon first attack, DPS checks for phase pushes start at first attack, the MP lifeblood of your healers starts at first attack ... not when you unsheathe your weapon.

You can realistically do anything you want before a tank pull, buff wise. Huton 15s before pull, pre-buff if you're into that. No reason why you should mandate that's part of your DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treuhavik

Even starting the fight with Huton (which you'd better fcking do), a Ninja isn't going to be immediately using TA. It's going to be around 8-12 seconds, plenty of time for any decent Monk to have GL3 from PB and a Dragoon will likely be applying Chaos Thrust in time to catch the vulnerability. It couldn't be more perfect for the other melee.

---

Ya, of course have huton up. I'm just agreeing that people should probably delay their TA ever so slightly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treuhavik

He's right. Doton > Katon IF the pack of mobs is alive for 19+ seconds and agrees to stand in the fire, which is rare in my experience. Also, it's not much but, Katon is a .5 second faster cast and doesn't have a positional req. So, I guess it's good if you've traded your party's BLM for a tank with lead feet.

---

Not quite. doton = katon if mobs are up 18-20 seconds and are never moved out of the circle. 21 seconds is the time where it's a slight improvement, and it's kind of an unlikely situation. As far as katon vs doton positional requirements, you're in the middle of the group doing death blossoms anyway so that's a moot point.

But basically, doton is bad unless your overall dps is also bad.

Edit: also there will be cases when some mobs are up for 21 seconds and the katon still wins. If even 1 mob dies before the full duration, especially if it dies quickly, the katon on more # of mobs wins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Yeah I got quite a lot of help testing last night. Wish I could take video easier , but SKSPD to be @ 2.00- GCD is best indeed. I'd like to add that I feel like when there are times like say we are on dancing edge rotation but Dancing edge will refresh at 4 s or more we can do an ID(yeah I know bear with me) before the Spin as filler to make a bit more use of those extra seconds. But I didn't get to test this enough to see if its worth it before my friend went to sleep. Do you mind testing for me?

---

I've also noticed the same thing while practicing lots with my ninja. At some point or another you will either refresh Dancing Edge 1s earlier or having Shadow Fang/Mutilate dropped for 1s, but I think that's not too bad.

I will see if throwing dagger as a filler will be better or not. More than likely, I think we shouldn't. Unless you are sure that if you go ahead with your rotation you will clip both Shadow Fang and Mutilate with each having one more tick to go, then the potency might worth since Shadow Fang = 40, Mutliate = 30, Throwing Dagger = 120, total 190 potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ooshima

I've also noticed the same thing while practicing lots with my ninja. At some point or another you will either refresh Dancing Edge 1s earlier or having Shadow Fang/Mutilate dropped for 1s, but I think that's not too bad.

I will see if throwing dagger as a filler will be better or not. More than likely, I think we shouldn't. Unless you are sure that if you go ahead with your rotation you will clip both Shadow Fang and Mutilate with each having one more tick to go, then the potency might worth since Shadow Fang = 40, Mutliate = 30, Throwing Dagger = 120, total 190 potency.

---

Sorry I didn't mean T D I meant I D as in Impulse Drive

Dagger costs too much TP for our 2 s GCD to be worth it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Sorry I didn't mean T D I meant I D as in Impulse Drive

Dagger costs too much TP for our 2 s GCD to be worth it

---

We can cross Impulse Drive? (not very sure because that never came to my options list lol).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

Not quite. doton = katon if mobs are up 18-20 seconds and are never moved out of the circle. 21 seconds is the time where it's a slight improvement, and it's kind of an unlikely situation. As far as katon vs doton positional requirements, you're in the middle of the group doing death blossoms anyway so that's a moot point.

But basically, doton is bad unless your overall dps is also bad.

Edit: also there will be cases when some mobs are up for 21 seconds and the katon still wins. If even 1 mob dies before the full duration, especially if it dies quickly, the katon on more # of mobs wins.

---

Thanks for supporting my point and my lolflowchart. Dim MS paint skillz doe. ;D

So far the only time I've found Doton to be of use is during add phase in Shiva Ex.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ehayte

Doton > Katon > Kassatsu > Katon.

---

And this is exactly how I've been doing it.

I would assume the safe bet for best AE rot is Doton > Katon > Kassatsu > Katon.

Another quick question that might be answered quickly or take some more discussion: I have always struggled (and my struggled I mean it takes me more effort than I feel like it should, not that I am failing) with monitoring my buffs and debuffs during a fight with MNK and NIN. Anyone have a screen shot of a UI set up that puts everything in front of your face in a major way? I wish I could just set up my UI so that my buffs and the debuffs I have on the boss are translucent in the middle of the screen, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ooshima

We can cross Impulse Drive? (not very sure because that never came to my options list lol).

---

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps3076a7fd.png

So 486 sks is the good number for nin? If so how does that make BIS look in terms of acc/det/crit for nin?

SkS is helping keep our dots on a tighter loop.

I'd like to test it for myself too. Just curious.

Idk why but, I don't like impulse drive as a filler...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tilgung

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps3076a7fd.png

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonus

Idk why but, I don't like impulse drive as a filler...

---

Thanks but ID as filler... IDK. I took Mantra as the last cross :X

The opener that i've eventually come up with allows me to spike to ~800 dps if its done right just on a dummy without a party or food (i110 weapon)

Huton (20s before pull ideally) > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Blood for Blood > Gust Slash > Internal Release > Dancing Edge > Dex pot > Spinning Edge > Trick Attack > Shadow Fang > Kassatsu > Mutilate > Raiton > Spinning Edge > Mug > Gust Slash > Jugulate > Aeolian Edge.

i realize this is longer than most openers, but its the only one i've made/found that actually involves potions and seems to work quite well for now, plus it doesn't waste time on b4b/IR by using them pre-pull like most do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqutYpkQqmg

huton nin opener

full duration mutilate>sf with ir+bfb>sf and mutilate with bfb and ta, no clipping

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ehayte

I would assume the safe bet for best AE rot is Doton > Katon > Kassatsu > Katon.

---

Katon is straight up 180 potency, and Doton has to tick for 18 secs (Doton icon duration goes from 24secs->6secs) to match that. And even then a full 24sec Doton (if the mob stays in there the entire fight) applies 240 potency. That's an extra 60 potency compared to Katon, per mob.

I would say that if mobs are going to die sooner than 18secs, you might as well go with Katon. If they're going to last more than 18secs, Doton might be better if they remain in the circle all the way through.

Mine is only level 39 so have not put into practice all skill sets or done any raids on this one yet but my opener is different to what most people do I think. I will use lighting/fireball mudra while running towards to mob(s) followed by throwing knives and then when close enough pop DoTs onto it, then I begin my normal combo sequence finishing that first one with dancing edge I think it is called then back to normal rotation without dancing edge until I need to reapply DoTs. But like said I am only level 39 right now so do not have access yet to quite a few mudra's and other skills. I consider my rotation so far good for the level I am at as I am not waiting on till standing right next to the mob before I have started DPSing it. My rotation will evolve the more skills I unlock. Enjoying the class a lot still and I prefer building/experimenting with my own rotations based on my own experience since more fun than just copy+pasting someone elses. :)

I just hit 47 and Doton is amazing in dd. but in my opinion ninja AOE is bad. I mean don't get me wrong I fcking lov the job but there AOE is not the to to if u want to b a ninja

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcherboy

I just hit 47 and Doton is amazing in dd. but in my opinion ninja AOE is bad. I mean don't get me wrong I fcking lov the job but there AOE is not the to to if u want to b a ninja

---

How about waiting until level 48 for your Death blossom to be stronger?

Yes it'll get stronger to 100 potency but that's nothing really to brag about

Now, idk if I'm just not getting matched with good BRDs, MNKs or DRGs, but I'm beating them all out on AoE pulls. All I'm doing is popping B4B and IR, spamming Death Blossom and weaving in my Katons/Kassatsu. TP obviously becomes a problem eventually but we may be wrong about NIN's AoE damage capability.

This thread is really intended to discuss the opening rotation on endgame content for a single target encounter.

The Suiton starter rot seems to be pretty close to ideal that was posted a few posts ago. I'm going to practice that one a bit tonight : D

I wish I had a parser!!!

I just hit 50 and I'm 108 where is that suiton started rot, I can't find it. I'm checking all rot to see which I'm comfortable with

I'm sitting at i104 with only an atma weapon, but my DPS apparently is sub-par. With everyone reporting ridiculous DPS numbers, I'm wondering what weapon they're using. I was only able to pull about 237 in T7. Granted, that fight involves a bit of running around and switching between targets, but I'd like to know whether it's my weapon, or just a bad rotation that I'm using. Any input (minus the "git gud" comments) would be appreciated. Just trying to tell myself to stick with it and have faith that it'll get better once I get animus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

I'm sitting at i104 with only an atma weapon, but my DPS apparently is sub-par. With everyone reporting ridiculous DPS numbers, I'm wondering what weapon they're using. I was only able to pull about 237 in T7. Granted, that fight involves a bit of running around and switching between targets, but I'd like to know whether it's my weapon, or just a bad rotation that I'm using. Any input (minus the "git gud" comments) would be appreciated. Just trying to tell myself to stick with it and have faith that it'll get better once I get animus.

---

I've done the same thing. I enjoy the mechanics of NIN,even with the mudras. But I just can't keep my DPS up with my dragoon (which, according to everyone, shouldn't be the case). I feel like there is a variable with when the pull is made based on where you are in Huton effect that if you hit the sweet spot, then everything falls in place and all your rotation/priority clicks.

I'm still fiddling with it (even some people from the FC trying to help me out with my rotation), but I can't just quite get it. Of course, I've been playing DRG for a year now so I have the rotation down pat. But with NIN, it feels like one mistake in my rotation throws my DPS down the dumps quickly...and that's not even factoring in delay of Mudra

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpecialKK

snip

---

Priority based pulling

Huton 70 -60 s : Start with Mutilate SE SF Option A Kassatsu into Suiton for Trick early, Option B Perform SE GS DE rotation and when mudra CD finishes > Suition TA and Kration are available
Huton 60- 65 s : Buff during SE GS DE Suiton > TA to apply DoT with all buffs and Kraiton
Huton 55 - 45 s : Suiton / pop buffs and TA as soon as possible then apply DoTs
Huton 40s or less : You should just reapply huton at this point buuuuut if you don't it's the same as 55-45 s

I'd like to note that this is only for bosses. for trash it doesn't matter as much.

Ok did some practicing on a dummy and just doing rot without weaving OGCD stuff(this assuming everything is down), SE GS DE(20 sec) /SE SF(18sec)/ Mut(30sec)/ SE GS AE, after that I have 5 sec left for Mut, DE 5 sec left and SF 6 sec left. Refreshing DE and SF works out perfectly by the time I hit my second Mut but I end clipping Mut by 5 sec. Now I can see clipping DE since it's just a debuff.

Ok did some more testing and I think for when OGCD here's my rot
SE GS DE 20 sec
SE SF 18 sec
Mut 30 sec
SE GS AE

Part 2 of rot

SE GS DE (3sec left) 20 when refresh
SE SF (4sec left) 18 when refresh
Mut (8sec left) no refresh
SE GS AE

part 3

SE GS DE (had 5 sec left) 20 refresh
Mut (0 sec) 30 refresh
SE SF(1 sec) 18 refresh
SE GS AE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcherboy

snip

---

there no need to refresh DE after the first one as a warrior should have it up by this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Remember that DoT ticks are not affected by resistance down and vulnerability debuffs on mobs.
So only the initial 60 potency of Mutilate, and the 200 Potency of Shadow Fang will be affected.
So it is probably worth getting Dancing Edge up before Shadow Fang, but only a 6 potency increase for Mutilate.

---

looked thru and no one brought it up, but dots are affected by vul down debuff. dots from all sources except potions.

Yes DE DEBUFF if war can keep up it. But they won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcherboy

Yes it'll get stronger to 100 potency but that's nothing really to brag about

---

Not sure what you think other jobs do for aoe but here's some #'s:
MNK: 50, 0, 130, repeating, 170 off gcd every minute. NIN wins. (except perfect balance rockbreaker spam every 4 minutes @ 130 repeating)
BRD: 110 repeating, 35 dot up half the time, bonus if with a caster. Without caster involvement I'm sure it's close if not slightly less than nin.
DRG: 100 repeating unless neatly lined up, then 160 repeating but elevated tp cost. 250 off gcd every 2 minutes
SMN: kinda hard to calculate but goes down when there's 5+ mobs.
BLM: even the king of aoe is still mostly doing 100 potency hits a high amount of the time, just with things that boost it.

NIN aoe is just fine. Better than MNK and possibly preferable to all but BLM when paired with another melee and/or war tank.

BLM aoe should be Fire II 180 potency and Flare 468 potency under Astral 3.

Huton > DE > Mutilate > Fang > AE > setup for next AE (use SE and GS) pop IR BfB Suiton Kass TA Ration Finish AE hit jugilate and mug

I hit 500+ with this opener. I just have to work on my sustained.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destinova

Huton > DE > Mutilate > Fang > AE > setup for next AE (use SE and GS) pop IR BfB Suiton Kass TA Ration Finish AE hit jugilate and mug

I hit 500+ with this opener. I just have to work on my sustained.

---

Just curious, what weapon do you have, and what's your overall ilvl? I'm asking because I feel like my DPS is garbage, BUT I only have atma weapon.