Undercut Hell

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Originally Posted by Illya

Nobody cares about the plight of the 1%

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I am not going to participate in the debate/discussion... but I did want to mention that this is actually quite an insightful comment. Much more insightful that it first seems at a surface level.

If you take the time to ponder this (particularly how it applies irl), you would be surprised how one-sided and closed minded many arguements/debates really are. In game, for sure... but also, as I mentioned, irl (regardless of which stance you take on most matters).

I'll undercut by atleast 10% or more just to drive the price the down, when it reaches a good enough decline I will buy it up and resell at back at the price I originally undercut, after I made my first million doing this, I figured it was a good way to manipulate the market. They put it there for us to use it as we see fit, so I made the system work for me.

The markets in this game and the emotional response that people have just crack me up. I love how many people are willing to share their "trade secrets" with other people, but people just write-off the suggestions for one reason or another. Personally the undercutting/overpricing game is quite funny. Every once in a while I go and adjust prices on my items for sale and I crack myself up. I normally do the undercut by 1 gil, so my item is at the top of the list for at least a min, so it really cracks me up when I have something like an animal skin up for sale for like 600 gil but end up just having to NPC it because there are 500 of them listed for 1 gil each. Looking back on it, it cracks me up that I would even put it up for sale for that much in the first place.

Ah the undercut threads. Always a popcorn eating good time at work. Please continue to entertain me with faulty understandings of rudimentary economics bound with the emotional zeal of social injustice and moral righteousness.

I be like:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...GQLfBpH8aYKyw3


After the close:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...fCR67fyNz-svlX

Then me:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...z8QI9390P9avvw

You:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...IJws9hl-lKYQL_

>Hates undercutting
>Buys all the undercut
>????
>Profit

Economics 101

This is what a free market is. If you see someone undercut you by an obscene amount on an item that is in at least a moderate demand, then buy that item, relist it at a more appropriate price, and gather the profits. That's one option, and an option that I personally take advantage of from time to time. There's not a huge amount of integrity in this option, but it's the most efficient method.

Another option would be to ignore the undercut price, acknowledge that it is only one or two items that will get sold quickly, and keep listing at your intended price.

We do not need a blind auction system. Any advocacy for it is just advocacy for supply-end price manipulation.

Markets only function when both buyer and seller have full information on what they are buying and selling, which blind auctions prevent. Blind auctions are part of the equation making FFXI's market economy dysfunctional.

Undercuts are not 'malicious' or 'exploitative'. They're basic supply, demand, and market competition theory. The 'undercutters' are not denying your ability to make a sale - your high price is generating a surplus you need to react to.

All the same tactics used on the FFXIV market board are tactics used in the real world every day and considered legitimate uses of the free market. Including one-gil undercuts. Haven't you ever seen an item for 39.99 instead of $40.00?

Everyone undercuts b/c their dumb and do not know the meaning of the word patience...you playing an mmo but are in a hurry.

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Originally Posted by Relaeh

Everyone undercuts b/c their dumb and do not know the meaning of the word patience...you playing an mmo but are in a hurry.

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http://www.academiccomposition.com/w...pot-kettle.jpg

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So by the middle of the day, the item I was selling was 375k and I was selling them very regularly.. all of a sudden some moron places one on the market for 200k.. an undercut of 175k..

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Bad for sellers but good for buyers. This is beneficial depending you look at it.

Supply and demand

I never undercut. I look at the sales history, and mark accordingly. Sure quick sales are nice but the price will always vary once people buy the cheap stuff off and only reasonable prices remain.

'This too shall pass' is my idiom for selling on MB.

Buying is a lot trickier since I don't have a more comprehensive knowledge of the market yet.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Supply and demand

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+1

You can make much better business decisions as a crafter if you understand some of the basics of economics.

If someone undercuts me by 1 gil repeatedly, I lower the price much more since I dont have time to undercut by 1 gil all day. I only change prices a few times a day

The trick to never having to deal with undercutters is to only ever craft or selling things that have 0 competition to begin with. Thank you, quantity sort!

Its a open market in the game and, Supply and Demand.

If you think their prices are so low then why don't you buy all of their items and relist them for what you want to sell them for?

you should probably start yourself by not doing the unnecessary 1 gil undercut anyway

Give us unlimited retainer space and/or the ability to sell unlimited amount of items and I will start to be patient. As it is now we need to sell quickly to just not drown in mats and gear.

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Originally Posted by Maza

One thing for me is if there are several items up for say 10k and someone puts one up for 9999 I will buy the one below it for 10k.

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I do that too. 9999 is just an untidy way of saying 10000, so I buy the one that was listed first to be fair to the seller (and because I like round numbers). Undercutting by 1 gil is the market equivalent of a kill steal (a "sell steal"?) If I've made a seller happy then I feel good about it. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

It's time for fun time with Economics, starring me! :D

To fully understand the economic underpinnings, one must understand that the type of market in FFXIV, at least on the market boards, are a perfect competition market. It can't be a monopolistic competition. It can be an oligopoly, but that's only true for relatively rare and high level crafting items. It can also be a monopoly, but that's difficult to create, and very difficult to maintain over a given length of time. Thus, it's important to realize that for most items, we're dealing with a perfect competition market.

With that said, the supply curve in a market economy is the quantity of a given good that suppliers will give at given prices. As prices rise, suppliers will supply a greater quantity of a given good. In a perfect competition market, the supply curve is an aggregate of all of the suppliers of a given good at given prices that they are willing to sell that good. The demand curve in that same market is the quantity of goods buyers are willing and able to buy at given prices. As prices rise, buyers will buy lesser quantities of a given good. The equilibrium point is where the supply curve and the demand curve meet. It is the optimum price point where the market can supply the quantity demanded without excess. Price above that point, and there is an excess of goods in the market, and things don't quite sell as fast. Below the point, and there is a market deficit, and things sell faster than can be supplied. The problem, though, is that the demand curves and the supply curves are in constant motion, making the equilibrium point move up and down.

This is especially true for durable and semi-durable goods. For durable goods, the demand curve will constantly move to the left, as demand is filled and does not need to be filled again. For semi-durable goods, the demand curves does move to the left like in durable goods, but can move to the right according to changes in the game.

As far as undercutting goes, it may be a signal that the prices are set too high, especially if the prices stick, and thus, the person who set their prices as high as possible will be left with a market surplus that isn't selling as well. On the other hand, if prices are set too low, such as below the NPC price, these market goods will sell very fast, and the person might not be able to meet the market demand. Undercutting is neither bad nor good from an economist stand point, rather it is a signal and a sign of where the market curves are, and where the equilibrium price is located.

Okay, now there will be a test on this next week, so I expect you guys to study. ;p

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

I am fully prepared to get shot down in this thread by the undercutters themselves but I just don't understand these people and it's driving me insane.

All weekend I have been selling an item and profitting well out of it, I started by undercutting the best price by 1gil.. this keeps the price at the same amount and if anyone wants to undercut me at 1gil they are VERY welcome to.. all our stuff will sell for the intended price eventually and everyone is happy.. yes you have to keep an eye on the market but thats fine because we are all profitting.

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If you undercut me by 1 gil I'm going to drop it 10k every time until you stop. Put it at the same price if you want but the 1 gil stuff is beyond annoying and I'm not going to stalk the boards to play your 1 gil game.

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Originally Posted by Maza

One thing for me is if there are several items up for say 10k and someone puts one up for 9999 I will buy the one below it for 10k. If you are going to undercut someone don't be cheap about it, give a better deal than one dang gil imho : ) .

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Same here. I never buy th 1 gil undercutters.

OP talks about maintaining the economy. You know when I go to the vending machines down the hall... All of them sell drinks for the same price.

Your the reason people are undercutting if the accepted value of something was a FIXED number it would stay so. Your the one starting the downward slope.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

I never buy th 1 gil undercutters.

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I couldn't care less. I almost always undercut by 1-5 gil. The only times I will price match is if I'm selling a product I know is in high demand.

I do not discriminate against 1 gil undercutters, and have actually found that some of the people who do that are diligent with their products on the market, know the going rates much better, and give more reasonable prices when making personal requests.

To each their own I suppose. This has a little to do with my stance as well:

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Originally Posted by Cynthis

Give us unlimited retainer space and/or the ability to sell unlimited amount of items and I will start to be patient. As it is now we need to sell quickly to just not drown in mats and gear.

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I don't undercut prices that are unusually below the standard going rate. Just thought I'd mention that.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

OP talks about maintaining the economy. You know when I go to the vending machines down the hall... All of them sell drinks for the same price.

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But if you go to a grocery store you can buy your beverage at a lower price. At a big box store you can get them in at an even better price. Then of course, sometimes they can be on sale.

Is that undercutting? No, that's a deal.

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Originally Posted by kidvideo

But if you go to a grocery store you can buy your beverage at a lower price. At a big box store you can get them in at an even better price. Then of course, sometimes they can be on sale.

Is that undercutting? No, that's a deal.

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And then you are paying for the convenience of not having to go to those stores in town.

Since the MB is in 1 place regardless.. The vending machine scenario works.

All things being equal the price has to be equal or the higher priced people go out of business. If the status quo is maintained everyone will sell for the same price and make equal profits. undercutting in any amount destroys that. Be it 1 gil or 50k the person at fault is the 1st person to break the status quo.

Vendor prices are WAY too low. Currently, you have two options: vendor it for next to nothing (most items < 10 gil) or put it up on the market board. If vendors offered a reasonable price for items, then I think a lot of the undercutting casuals would vendor items rather than deal with the hassle of the market. For example, a housing item is up on the market for generally ~50k. The vendor price is 100 gil. This is too much of a gap and doesn't reflect the rarity of the item. So the people who need money put it up for a fraction of the market price to move it quick. But, what if the vendor price was 5k? I think a lot of people might just vendor rather than deal with the market board and also to have the money in hand. You combine this with the limited space to sell and it puts a lot of pressure for people to make quick sales.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

All things being equal the price has to be equal or the higher priced people go out of business. If the status quo is maintained everyone will sell for the same price and make equal profits. undercutting in any amount destroys that. Be it 1 gil or 50k the person at fault is the 1st person to break the status quo.

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I appreciate your purchasing and economic philosophies. However, this is business. The truth of the matter, is that your personal buying habits and selling principles are such a small part of the common purchasing demographic in game that it's hardly realized, if at all in any tangible way.

You need top paged. Unless you're leveled high enough to craft things in extremely high demand, you need to push product. If I want to sell 3 craftsman materia I or II at say 3k a piece and there are 10 of them on the market board for 2675, I'll be selling my three for 2670. That's just the way it works.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

I appreciate your purchasing and economic philosophies. However, this is business. The truth of the matter, is that your personal buying habits and selling principles are such a small part of the common purchasing demographic in game that it's hardly realized, if at all in any tangible way.

You need top paged. Unless you're leveled high enough to craft things in extremely high demand, you need to push product. If I want to sell 3 craftsman materia I or II at say 3k a piece and there are 10 of them on the market board for 2675, I'll be selling my three for 2670. That's just the way it works.

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Do what you want. But don't do it then complain that someone else did it to you.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

The vending machine scenario works.

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Incorrect. Your vending machine scenario is essentially price fixing. More often than not, the sodas & beverages are all from the same parent company.

Absolutely nothing from the vending machine scenario applies to this game. There isn't anything in the game that resembles that market. Supply and demand is constantly shifting in the game, the vending machine is a stable market.

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Originally Posted by Ren_Taka

Vendor prices are WAY too low. ....

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Whatever the vendor prices, the mark demand will set a price that will in no ways match the vendor price. You see items that can be vendor for 2 gil being sold on the MB for 1 all the time, and even stuff for 10gil to the NPC being sold for 1. If you increase the NPC payout for items, all that does inflate the money supply. What was 10 gil going for 5000, will induce what is was 50K to be 25 mil.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Do what you want. But don't do it then complain that someone else did it to you.

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Who is complaining? Certainly this thread was not started by the undercutters and not those who undercut by 1 gil.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Absolutely nothing from the vending machine scenario applies to this game. There isn't anything in the game that resembles that market. Supply and demand is constantly shifting in the game, the vending machine is a stable market.

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Vending machine. These people have no understanding what a real market is. Even vending machines follow market rules. The prices of item are set by a person who has to adjust them from time to time and change up the items for sale too. It is very much a give an take, just that things in real life for the sanity of everyone has a more stable pricing. People whine/cheer too much on a weekly basis when gasoline prices moves. Heaven forbid they deal with pricing that changes by the second on a stock market.

Vending machines are a completely different market. At worst, a vending machine is a monopoly, at best is a oligopoly. The market board economy, on the other hand, is mostly a perfect competition economy.

It's not fun, when you want to sell something on a competitive market to stay in front of the action house to actualise the price of an item every two minutes for 3 hours straight.
I don't give a damn being undercut, but people shouldn't be able to doing that as much.
I don't think something like a 30 minutes timeout when you can't undercut since you're last price change would be a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Ravno

I don't think something like a 30 minutes timeout when you can't undercut since you're last price change would be a bad idea.

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That solution will tank the economy. Anyone wanting to get the sale would just start out at a lower price. & the rest would follow suit.

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Originally Posted by kidvideo

That solution will tank the economy. Anyone wanting to get the sale would just start out at a lower price. & the rest would follow suit.

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I think it's better to have an economy when concurence beetween seller is based on price rather than "I can camp the marketboard longer than you".

While the FFXI auction system does have its drawbacks, the markets did stabilize a lot faster. Unsold items were returned to you via mail if they were on the AH for more than 3 days. Why can't this feature be at least implemented?

Its like you all /enjoy/ arguing.

I just wish people wouldnt undercut by such large numbers and severely driving the prices down. There are so many items up on the block that are selling for less than their vendor value which is pure comedy. If you want to undercut a product just do it by smaller increments, maybe 1-3% of the previous value. So you can get yours on top and possibly keep the value of the item in question.

when I see a low level gear being solde for 40k and when I mean low level is like well lvl 20 or so, it drives me nuts, and I will undercut by far...because is just DUMB to take advantage of new people because there are new people out there o those that started a new and dont have zillions to force them to pay this amount to be able to have a decent gear. I cant stand rip off

Mei