Marauder needs a damage boost now ~

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Originally Posted by Rexus

LNC have the highest dmg weapons in the game, in addition they have abilities to increase TP gain and attack. They should do the most damage (per single target), or be equal with ARC. These two classes are the pure DD's, so it makes sense for them to be better DPS than MRD.

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Archer should have the upper hand, that's all they have. Lancer have several support abilities that makes them shine on their own.

Once my Linkshell was talking about how Ogre and Barthal seemed tame and barely WSed at all while the kill was even faster...then I pointed out that I was spamming Twisting Vice, Moosrise II, and interupting with Leg Sweep and keeping Comrade in Arms II and Life Surge at all time (thus buffing my party's TPs and accuracy, therefore their WS frequency).

Lancer is a support Melee, and an amazing one at that. We don't need to win the best raw DPS contest.

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I'm going to have completely disagree on GLA always the being ideal tank. GLA tanking is a safer way to go, for sure. However, you can hold hate just as fine (or better due to DPS) on MRD while making fights go faster. That seems ideal to me.

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Unfortunately, Gladiator's ability to use a shield makes them better at what tanking means: holding hate and reducing dammage recieved to a maximum. I personally wouldn't mind a tank doing more damage as long as it's damage mitigation isn't affected. If I want the fights to end faster I'll just whip and yell at my DPSes ;-)

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Originally Posted by Zarvlad

Unfortunately, Gladiator's ability to use a shield makes them better at what tanking means: holding hate and reducing dammage recieved to a maximum. I personally wouldn't mind a tank doing more damage as long as it's damage mitigation isn't affected. If I want the fights to end faster I'll just whip and yell at my DPSes ;-)

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That's the thing, shield skills became near useless on Ogre/Batraal under 60%. They end up having as much dmg mitigation as MRD but with severely lower DPS ability. I tank Ogre/Batraal on MRD only now =/

Wow, I'm going to need glasses after reading this thread.

Again, let's make it simple. Just reduce Broad Swing to a 15 sec recast and all our main issues are solved.

Why is it that simple?
Because when you can use Broad Swing more, you do more damage on more enemies, resulting in more TP, resulting in being able to use Storm's Path more which is doing more damage and build more enmity.
And that's a MRD's role, case closed.


So what happens when it's only a single mob to attack?
Well that's not our specialty, call in the Archers.

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Originally Posted by Rexus

That's the thing, shield skills became near useless on Ogre/Batraal under 60%. They end up having as much dmg mitigation as MRD but with severely lower DPS ability. I tank Ogre/Batraal on MRD only now =/

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What is your setup? I'd be willing to give it a shot.

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

Wow, I'm going to need glasses after reading this thread.

Again, let's make it simple. Just reduce Broad Swing to a 15 sec recast and all our main issues are solved.

Why is it that simple?
Because when you can use Broad Swing more, you do more damage on more enemies, resulting in more TP, resulting in being able to use Storm's Path more which is doing more damage and build more enmity.
And that's a MRD's role, case closed.


So what happens when it's only a single mob to attack?
Well that's not our specialty, call in the Archers.

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Indeed. And i apologize about it >< I knew it was gonna be a wall of text.

And i don't really understand why shouldn't i be saying Nexus name if that was specificaly to him. Its the very same of putting an @Nexus there. Also, i'm in no way attacking him...i'm just using him as an example of players that have generic playstyle...those that put actions over classes. And talking about him...nop, this discussion is not about armory system...i know some cross-class actions are cool...i use some too...but what i mean is that you let the cross-class actions define your playstyle...i wish i could see your macro palette...i bet instead of having a macro for LNC, PGL, MRD, etc you have macros for roles...Tank, DD, Mage, etc because you do seems to use the very same setup for the very same role...excluding some WSs and class exclusive stuff i bet your DD palette for all classes is the same...you palette for tanking is the same, etc. But of course i'm guessing this based on what i read until now...if i'm wrong, i do apologize. I also apologize if i sounded like if i was attacking you...it wasn't the intention. I just wanted to use you as example of one possible playstyle (the copycat)...so was this i do said you can be badass this way...somewhere near the end of my text wall you might even find the "badass" word while talking about him.

And about asking me how do i play dungeons right now...i play THM....or GLA. I have right now the setup for playing MRD as GLA copycat...but i don't feel like it. I don't want my MRD to be generic...i already had way too many problem with this before (like people openly even saying i sucked as MRD because i wasn't stacking disorient with them and, instead, i did use it more rationally, only against evasive monsters...and this because the way i played the class wasn't the same the dude did...he was one of those with 50 STR and 170 VIT we often see nowadays) so i'm kinda used to people bashing playstyles that aren't what whey assume its optimal...its exactly what you said...if you don't have those actions or don't play that way, you're gimp. This is the common sense.

And in response to that i had that balanced build that is posted...and the result...i had people that known me having outdamaging me as goal because i could tank and DD at very same time. Its nice you seeing people actually wanting to steal hate from you...seeing them trying hard enough to force you using a real tanking stance. It was cool seeing people challenging my warmonger, my full swing, my heavy swing and my storm path...but right now there is no challenge. The "born ready" tanking style of MRD is dead...noe its just like GLA...you need people to hold back so you won't feel that pathetic. I swear you...with fast basic attacks MRD would eat those raids on breakfast because those are some extremely favorable terrain for the class original mechanics. I can give you an easy example...ogre gives you low TP due strong damage mitigation, right? what about that ghost right by it? That ghost is there dor cone TP generation...you get 80ish from ogre but some decent beef from ghost...but you , right now, can have this beef only twice every 30~60 seconds...you know...i do believe that a old mechanics MRD PT (place 5 MRD 3 CON) could get the ogre dead by the time the ghosts did the 5th (3rd time they go to center) teleport just by using the ghost TP generation and fast WS bursts.

And this is what i mean...why being happy in playing GLA if you can play MRD? But for this we need basic attacks adjustments.

Some of y'all are arguing for what Marauder has become vs what it was designed for.

Visit http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game...marauder/range

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The marauder is a combat specialist whose weapon of choice is the greataxe—a fearsome arm emblematic of Eorzea’s pirates. Their approach to battle is one of brute force, relying on strength and steel to crush enemies and sunder weapons.

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Does that sound like Marauder to you?

Your idea of Marauder seems to be a Paladin with a Great Sword in FFXI (well, gaxe).

Just look at the picture of them ... they are meant to use large weapons, and deal large damage. Unfortunately someone who attacks faster, hits harder, and weaponskills more has really taken over the role of 2 handed damage dealing.

Marauder shouldn't be Lancer, but Lancer shouldn't be weaponskilling faster, and auto attacking faster, for more damage.
Samurais never did as much damage as Dark Knights per hit, but they hit more often.

If Lancer hits faster than Marauder it should deal less damage per hit. Now, since the discussion was not to "nerf lancer", I bring it back to boost marauder damage a tad, boost TP gain per hit for 2 handed weapons. For the sake of balance Lancer should have to give something up. It shouldn't get all those benefits... Marauder should deal more damage per swing, but Lancer should keep the faster TP, the faster weaponskills, and the party support. Marauder doesn't have party support, it has a lot of HP, and a really really slow weapon.

Good things to make the class more useful are a Marauder-Exclusive Reposite/Counter Attack stance. In FFXI there is a move by Warriors called Retaliation, which gives you roughly 50% chance to counter attack. On Single Targets the move is ... okay. Where it really shines is in AoE fighting, the more mobs hitting you, the more often you attack, the faster you get TP, the more damage you deal.

Perhaps a "Retaliation" move would fix Marauder as well, at least in letting them maintain their AoE king status. However, there is still the issue of being outclassed by Lancers, and barely outclassing Gladiators in the DD department.

A sword has almost half the delay of a Marauder Axe but deals 80% of the damage.... why do you not see this as a problem yet? Leave swords where they are, boost Strength to Damage for 2-handed weapons. This helps Lancer, and Marauder (although lancer is relatively fine right now).

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Some of y'all are arguing for what Marauder has become vs what it was designed for.

Visit http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game...marauder/range

Does that sound like Marauder to you?

Your idea of Marauder seems to be a Paladin with a Great Sword in FFXI (well, gaxe).

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To be fair, you have to admit most of the info on the site is outdated or flat out incorrect. I was talking more about the current abilities lineup for each jobs.

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Good things to make the class more useful are a Marauder-Exclusive Reposite/Counter Attack stance. In FFXI there is a move by Warriors called Retaliation, which gives you roughly 50% chance to counter attack. On Single Targets the move is ... okay. Where it really shines is in AoE fighting, the more mobs hitting you, the more often you attack, the faster you get TP, the more damage you deal.

Perhaps a "Retaliation" move would fix Marauder as well, at least in letting them maintain their AoE king status. However, there is still the issue of being outclassed by Lancers, and barely outclassing Gladiators in the DD department.

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What about adding double attack, as stated earlier? Retaliation was added late in FFXI, counter attack always been more in the Monk's niche of moves. Not that I don't want it on Marauder (we have Fracture as a sort of counter move, after all), but I wouldn't be surprised if PUG/"Monk" get's it instead.

@Lienn

There are only so many skills each class has... what do you expect people to fill your other 20-30 actions slots with? I highly doubt anyone has every WS on their bar, and most probably don't have Disorient (since it rarely lands on high level stuff), Enduring March or Barbaric Yawp. I'd have Bloodbath on if I didn't have to use Quickstride. Other than that, I use every skill MRD has. I fill the rest of my bar with skills from every other class to supplement my role as a DPS Tank.

GLA is a polar opposite for me. I fill half my slots with GLA actions, then shield actions, then I have a few left for 'needed' cross class skills (Cure, Featherfoot, Emulate, Defender, Etc).

I don't "copycat and play MRD like GLA" at all. I have some defensive skills yes, but I focus on trying to get in BR's and pump out as much additional damage as I can while keeping hate. With GLA, I'm only focusing on keeping myself cured, having shield skills up all the time, and using any other hate ability w/e I can.

In regards to your way of wanting to do Ogre... that just isn't feasible, even if Broad Swing was on a 4 second timer. You would NOT put yourself in the middle of the room near all the ghosts, as you would die near instantly from all their AoE's. Add into the fact you/the tank would get pushed away by Ogres WS's.

I'm still confused, pre 1.18, how did you play MRD in endgame situations (NM's only I guess...)? Once the NM adds are dead in the first 2-5 minutes, your Broad Swing becomes pretty useless. I don't understand what your "former glory" image of MRD is.

@Defmetal

Zarvlad said it best, those supposed class definitions on the FFXIV site are severely outdated and no longer valid. Remember how LNC had that "you can stab from far away and not be in danger!" thing? looooool. Or how about PUGs offensive/defensive stances and their Steal/Stealth? Oh maaaaaaaaan lol.

MRD is the same MRD it started out as. It had enmity generating abilities, defense boosting abilities, and some minor attack buffs. The only thing that changed is they made it so you can't spam StormsPathBrandishSkullSunderStormSpathBrandishSkullSunder constantly anymore on multiple mobs. You CAN still do large amounts of AoE damage in small intervals, which is more than enough.

Also, why shouldn't LNC be doing more damage, and doing it faster? Just because jobs were made a certain way in XI doesn't mean that has to be reflected in XIV. I'd gladly welcome higher base dmg on our axes, sure. I still don't think lower dmg is gimping MRD tho. Hell, I take 10-15% off Batraal before the rest of the party comes over after first skeleton wave, I think that's pretty decent =/

@Zarvlad

I use this for my bar during dungeon runs (I tank, obvious by now. lol):

Heavy/Broad/Full Swing/Skull Sunder/Trunskplitter/Brandish/Storms Path/Invigorate
Cure/Second Wind/Raging Strike/Ferocity/Foresight/Featherfoot/Diversion/Quickstride
Provoke/Warmonger/Accomplice/Obsess/Sentinel/Emulate/Murderous Intent/Defender

I use full Iron gear + Solid Scale Mail + Tarred Leather Trousers. My acc's are Mythril Wristlets+1 x2, and Brass Rings+1 x2. I use Canopus Bill.

Not in the center (obviously)...no class can survive to all ghosts' spam. But no matter where you tank the ogre you always will have 1 ghost near...and this one would be the key. What ii meant was that, while ghosts are at border, you would have a constant 2 targets to broad swing, which would give you way more TP than any other melee class. With a faster broad (or full) you would get TP faster than if you used siphon and invigorate...and if you got a good soul willing to Comrade the ghost (or even yourself doing this) you would end getting roughly 1k TP/broad...Comrade woon't last long, but neither will the ghost since its only useful while in the border....now multiply this TP gain for 5 since the setup had 5 MRD...it would end with 5 people tossing WS like crazy just because SE offered you a mob with an extremely large HP pool and that never moves (and pretty much never die since its always recovering HP with the drai AoE).

The only thing that separates MRD from the "raid king" title is the retard recast they put on its basic actions. And about pre 1.18 we had heavy swing for single target. People might complain about how stanmina would hold heavy swing...but still it was enough to keep up with other melees...because its like old six-arms (yeah, i know that this example will end with "i was talking about Dodore & friends and not r35 NMs")...it has a very interesting characteristic...it has extremely high def but low VIT...so its very resistant to WS but not much to basic attacks...heavy swing can deal about 2x what you deal with WS on it. But still...its all about the enemy...if you think i'd just try and lie about what i deal against single target, too bad...yep, i'd stick with heavy swing until i see some red dots passing by at map.

You need to be fair with the questions...if you ask about MRD, assume its against Dodore, goblin or Mosshorn....you want me to say it suck as DD against great buffy? Yep, it does....but every other melee class do too. Obviously that classes with straight damage against single target (like ARC and LNC) will have an edge in this situation...but the opposite is also true....they were no match to MRD damage when fighting the NMs that have minions. I never said it was OP or that it would rule the game in every aspect if it had the basic attacks...it just don't exist (yet...who knows what battle team has reserved to ARC jobs...maybe we just end with RNG v2.0 here)...what i say is that it cannot play properly under its own patterns as it is now...aka its broken.

Eh, you could try and Broad Swing one of the ghosts while they're on the outer ring.. but you'd have to move towards them and then you'd just get knocked away from it by Ogre. I really don't think ghosts are there to TP on...

The thing about pre 1.18 against NM's with adds, MRD would be almost TOO powerful. You could pretty much have 3K TP all the time, and spamming WS's constantly is not 'balanced'. I'd almost compare it to MNK with Relic Knuckles being able to spam Asuran indefinitely.

It's a pacing thing you have to get used to now. MRD is still the AoE king, they just push out DPS a little slower... as does every class. Except ARC. They'll get their comeuppance eventually.... and many will weep.

About the ghost, its basically the position you guys use since the ghosts are always at same spot so you can tank the ogre by the ghost spot to avoid having to move. But this does is more than just the tank to decide since changing the tanking spot might, sometimes, bring problem to other members...

And yep, that's what i was talking about...the broad swing is the way of it to play...and that's why axes have lower attack than polearms or bows and the why MRD WS were weaker than other classes...because the main idea is that it would never be targeting one monster so the damage would always spread...while you had LNC popping a 2k doomspike in one target you had MRD popping 300ish in 3~7 targets in a much higher rate than LNC can pop a 3k doomspike, leaving things balanced. But back to ghost example...think that you Comraded it...right now you will be able to hit the ghost only 2 times before the comrade is gone, assuming you have both full and broad ready...only 2 hits would offer enough for a storm path and a skull sunder or some other combo with cheaper WSs. Same happens with warmonger or murderous intent because the effect is short due the spam possibility...but now that you can't attack fast the actions lose most of their usefulness.

Right now MRD is restricted to 2 swings per buff if he actually save both broad and full for it...if we had weapon delay at broad, we could have like 7 swings (4x7 = 28sec) only from it plus full...it already would turn the class usable again. And this is what i want...all this crying is to actually make SE understand (yep...i doubt they really tried everything before deciding the battle changes...it was nearly impossible to check everything right at start) that MRD native actions effectiveness are proportional to basic attack speed. I never went to them and said "Hey, f' this battle system...i want instant basic attacks as they were!"...i offered alternatives in exchange of increased speed...like full swing being usable only while steadfast is up or heavy swing consuming HP to use...and broad having weapon delay...and in exchange of this all i suggested increasing basic action costs...if the signature/key actions of every class have increased action cost in exchange of performance and MRD does have all its performance based on basic attacks, why not giving them action cost? This would still prevent spam...it would still hold down the class...because when it has cost it will work exactly like WSs, where you will have to choose what to equip instead of just equipping everything.

EDIT: Good lord i need to start writing less >< my latest posts had been way too long... ; ;

2 swings per buff? You do realize that buffs wear off if you use a triggered attack, including basic attacks and throws. So it's 1 attack per buff.

Archer is the exception and is what makes the class broken atm. If you use light shot with arrows nocked, all arrows will be empowered. Note that even Multi-Hit WS wont be have all their hits buffed.

Also where do you get that 28 Seconds thing? Raging Strike? Keep in mind that even with Bowmanship you will have a longer cooldown on it. Maybe you should do a little more testing in-game and research.

The only abilities that are lasting and affecting all your swings are Invigorate, Muderous Intent and Still Precision, Buff from Life Surge is also affecting all your hits as Lancer.

The Marauder deals Cone damage and AoE, I hear alot of complaints about not enough damage, Can you give a reason as to why the maruader should get more damage, please explain why it should be the strongest, and tanky and have AoE's and have a higher health pool, as well as a buff for just standing around, that reduces the damage of enemy attacks, "Parry", the Gladiator needs to raise its shields. what your asking for is a single class that all other classes will be obsolete. I am sorry if i sound angry, I read all 6 pages of this thread and kept seeing nothing but complaints, without a single argument as to why they deserve the buff. Outside of a personal dislike of the auto attack and damage they deal.

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Originally Posted by Zarvlad

2 swings per buff? You do realize that buffs wear off if you use a triggered attack, including basic attacks and throws. So it's 1 attack per buff.

Archer is the exception and is what makes the class broken atm. If you use light shot with arrows nocked, all arrows will be empowered. Note that even Multi-Hit WS wont be have all their hits buffed.

Also where do you get that 28 Seconds thing? Raging Strike? Keep in mind that even with Bowmanship you will have a longer cooldown on it. Maybe you should do a little more testing in-game and research.

The only abilities that are lasting and affecting all your swings are Invigorate, Muderous Intent and Still Precision, Buff from Life Surge is also affecting all your hits as Lancer.

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Talking about murderous intent and warmonger buff duration. I know raging strike wears after 1 use. Keep in mind i'm always talking about native actions only because its the class mechanic that is broken due delay. And the 28 seconds if refering to broad as if it used axe delay, wich is average 4 sec.

And Noata...it might feel like 6 pages (in part my fault due my wall of text) but it actually has only 3 pages ^^ Unless you meant 6 topics/threads in this forum. And at least from me i doubt you ever heard a single word regarding buffing MRD. My only reference regarding it was my 7 months old topic i linked somewhere here just to show some specialization based on class patterns...but that was refered to gameplay before AA was even announced. All i ask for MRD is what it is right to have...Right now MRD is a Ferrari without accelerator...i'm not asking a better engine or a nitro booster...i'm just asking SE to give back my accelerator. Its slightly different buffing a class and reevaluating something that it already have but was messed during balancing... ^^:

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Right now MRD is restricted to 2 swings per buff if he actually save both broad and full for it...if we had weapon delay at broad, we could have like 7 swings (4x7 = 28sec) only from it plus full...it already would turn the class usable again

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I'm a little confused by this line too. I think they mean if Broad Swing was on a 4 second timer, it'd take 28 seconds to do 7 attack rounds...? Then Raging strike will be almost ready... or something? >_>

Edit: Oh ok, I see what you're saying now. You're saying if Broad Swing was on a 4 second delay, you'd be able to get in 7 swings within the time Murderous Intent is up? But as of now, you can only get 2 in due to the 30/60sec cooldowns?

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Originally Posted by Rexus

I'm a little confused by this line too. I think they mean if Broad Swing was on a 4 second timer, it'd take 28 seconds to do 7 attack rounds...? Then Raging strike will be almost ready... or something? >_>

Edit: Oh ok, I see what you're saying now. You're saying if Broad Swing was on a 4 second delay, you'd be able to get in 7 swings within the time Murderous Intent is up? But as of now, you can only get 2 in due to the 30/60sec cooldowns?

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Yup, exactly this. Sometimes i think many of these misunderstandings are due my crappy english...its not my main tongue so (Please forgive me.) ^^:

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Originally Posted by Lienn

All i ask for MRD is what it is right to have...Right now MRD is a Ferrari without accelerator...i'm not asking a better engine or a nitro booster...i'm just asking SE to give back my accelerator. Its slightly different buffing a class and reevaluating something that it already have but was messed during balancing... ^^:

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As long as they also do it for others classes too, and that's what they might be juggling with right now. Reducing only the MRD atacks will cause a (justified) uproar because it will give the class a much bigger advantage. They will have to find a way to balance all cooldowns or find a tradeoff.

I recall you talking about something involving steadfast, how about 50-60%% cooldown reduction while in steadfast? They would have to make it so the timer resets if you break stance while on cooldown, else there would be possible mechanic abuse.

While we're talking about Marauder here, we have to take into consideration the other jobs; if there is a change suggested to marauder we have to make sure the change can be backed up with something else than "The job is broken and needs it" or "My feee~lings", else it's not gonna work. For example introducing double-attack on a Job related to Marauder is much more easy and in design than doign an exclusive reduced cooldown on MRD basic attacks. Would you be fine with the basic attacks have a reduced cooldown or weapondelay+x ... for all classes? I know some lancers and Pugs that would love to have their pierce/light strike viable again too.

While we're all passionate about this game, we still need to think with our heads, and not our hearts. Maybe I'm thinking like that because I do work in the video game industry and know how it is behind the scenes.

Current and coming mechanics (jobs), are also something we need to factor in and see possible avenues too (my point above)

Btw, props for making the effort to keep your posts as focused as possible, makes the whole debate more enjoyable and makes the brainstorming (because we are brainstorming, right?) more efficient.

What is your native language, if I may ask?

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Originally Posted by Zarvlad

As long as they also do it for others classes too, and that's what they might be juggling with right now. Reducing only the MRD atacks will cause a (justified) uproar because it will give the class a much bigger advantage. They will have to find a way to balance all cooldowns or find a tradeoff.

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I say reduce all the 30 second normal attack recasts to 15 seconds for all melee.

Light Strike
Light Stab
Pierce
Broad Swing

Thumbs up for fairness!

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

I say reduce all the 30 second normal attack recasts to 15 seconds for all melee.

Light Strike
Light Stab
Pierce
Broad Swing

Thumbs up for fairness!

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For the sake of fairness, list would be more accurate if you'd replace Pierce by Heavy Thrust ;-)

Group 1: Broad Swing, Heavy Thrust, Light Strike, Light Stab, Close Shot = Former second starting attack
Group 2: Heavy Swing, Pierce, Pummel, Heavy Slash, Multi Shot = R20 Attack
Group 3: Full Swing, Full Thrust, Flurry, Heavy Stab, Heavy Shot = R40 Attack

When talking about balancing these, we should (try to) keep these in mind.

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Originally Posted by Zarvlad

For the sake of fairness, list would be more accurate if you'd replace Pierce by Heavy Thrust ;-)

Group 1: Broad Swing, Heavy Thrust, Light Strike, Light Stab, Close Shot = Former second starting attack
Group 2: Heavy Swing, Pierce, Pummel, Heavy Slash, Multi Shot = R20 Attack
Group 3: Full Swing, Full Thrust, Flurry, Heavy Stab, Heavy Shot = R40 Attack

When talking about balancing these, we should (try to) keep these in mind.

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If it's not fair blame it on the Dev Team cause they are the ones who put the new recast time on these abilities, and my list is the 30 second attacks. I can see changing 30 sec to 15, but 60 to 15 is a stretch that may likely have them nerf the ability.

I understand how they set up the abilities to be purchased a certain levels, but they threw that out the window in 1.18 with auto attack. So I still see the list as fair with the exception of PUG eating up alot of MP with a shorter recast time.

Only in FFXIV would you see players advocate for mediocre damage for slow weapons and high damage for fast weapons.

FFXIV really does need some Traits like in FFXI though, a Double Attack trait would probably fix the low damage problem even if its a low trigger rate (it was 10% base in FFXI)

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Originally Posted by Zarvlad

As long as they also do it for others classes too, and that's what they might be juggling with right now. Reducing only the MRD atacks will cause a (justified) uproar because it will give the class a much bigger advantage. They will have to find a way to balance all cooldowns or find a tradeoff.

I recall you talking about something involving steadfast, how about 50-60%% cooldown reduction while in steadfast? They would have to make it so the timer resets if you break stance while on cooldown, else there would be possible mechanic abuse.

While we're talking about Marauder here, we have to take into consideration the other jobs; if there is a change suggested to marauder we have to make sure the change can be backed up with something else than "The job is broken and needs it" or "My feee~lings", else it's not gonna work. For example introducing double-attack on a Job related to Marauder is much more easy and in design than doign an exclusive reduced cooldown on MRD basic attacks. Would you be fine with the basic attacks have a reduced cooldown or weapondelay+x ... for all classes? I know some lancers and Pugs that would love to have their pierce/light strike viable again too.

While we're all passionate about this game, we still need to think with our heads, and not our hearts. Maybe I'm thinking like that because I do work in the video game industry and know how it is behind the scenes.

Current and coming mechanics (jobs), are also something we need to factor in and see possible avenues too (my point above)

Btw, props for making the effort to keep your posts as focused as possible, makes the whole debate more enjoyable and makes the brainstorming (because we are brainstorming, right?) more efficient.

What is your native language, if I may ask?

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I do am thinking about other classes. My suggestion covered all DoW and DoM basic attacks, not only MRD. I did ask moves like pierce, darts and light stab (basic actions that are mainly damage only, or situational positioning advantage) to also start following weapon delay. Actions like pummel, full thrust and heavy shot, which effect is more importantant than damage, should just stay as they are. Same for light strike...all i asked regarding light strike was to increase the buff lenght so it would last long enough to player to be able to reuse light strike and renew it (so PGLs could keep effect up fulltime, like they originally were meant to)...and all others were like this too...i never just asked the instant penaltyfree spam from before...i always had bigger penalties and restrictions suggested for classes i want really fast basic actions, just like heavy swing or flurry...and i asked HP cost, not MP on these...HP cost is the best kind of stuff to hold back reckeless playstyles! ^^ But i can say that i did reevaluate to them every single basic action from DoW and DoM...my feedback never was MRD only, even tho i do think MRD is the only one that really took damage from the change.

Well, i speak portuguese as my native language. Even tho i can read/write in english pretty well, it sometimes still fails me. =P

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Only in FFXIV would you see players advocate for mediocre damage for slow weapons and high damage for fast weapons.

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I'm definitely not saying it should be like that, but I can see why weapons stats are tailored the way they are. If axes had as much, or more attack than lances, no one would be able to get even close to their AoE damage. Your typically used axes have higher Acc/Crit/Parry than lances. MRD has skills that enhance crit and parry rate. There are reasons why MRD weapons don't have the highest DPS.

LNC has an obvious edge over MRD DPS because...it's a pure DD job. It seems like a good chunk of people only view MRD as a DD, not a DPS Tank hyprid. Really, it's kind of scary how easily some people call 'gimp' on a class when we have just touched the surface of what classes (and eventually, jobs) are to become.

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Originally Posted by Rexus

I'm definitely not saying it should be like that, but I can see why weapons stats are tailored the way they are. If axes had as much, or more attack than lances, no one would be able to get even close to their AoE damage. Your typically used axes have higher Acc/Crit/Parry than lances. MRD has skills that enhance crit and parry rate. There are reasons why MRD weapons don't have the highest DPS.

LNC has an obvious edge over MRD DPS because...it's a pure DD job. It seems like a good chunk of people only view MRD as a DD, not a DPS Tank hyprid. Really, it's kind of scary how easily some people call 'gimp' on a class when we have just touched the surface of what classes (and eventually, jobs) are to become.

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Now we're getting into an agreement! Agree completely with your post. MRD does wasn't designed for single target fight. It cannot WS for the same as a single target DD does because often its damage will spread against multiple targets. Its the basic of tactical board battle...when you calculate the damage you actually need to consider all targets involved... An example would be you having a dude "L" that can deal 30 damage to a single target...then you have the dude "M" who can deal 10 to 4 targets at same time. When you look straight to the main target you will say L owned M by far...30 is way stronger than 10...but if you look to battle as a whole, M actually was more effective than L because the total spread damage was of 40. This is the base where MRD was built on...the multiple targets fighter, focusing on spreading damage instead of deling optimal damage in a single target.

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LNC has an obvious edge over MRD DPS because...it's a pure DD job. It seems like a good chunk of people only view MRD as a DD, not a DPS Tank hyprid.

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IDK, LNC is more of a DPS/support job. IMO, it makes more sense with Archer having higher DPS potential because its the only thing that they can do, they don't really offer anything else to a party.

Back to the original point of the thread ... Marauder needs a damage boost. That's not to say Lancer shouldn't get one. Just two handed weapons in general should really outclass the damage of a single weapon.

Think what will happen when Dual Wield comes into effect if the system remains this way.
Two weapons dealing 75% of the damage of Marauder .... coming together for 150% more damage. Ouch.

Remember in FFXI how a dagger would deal like 20-40 damage and a Great Axe would slash for 200? That's what most people should expect from a dagger vs an axe. Because, the Axe hits once, and it might miss, but if it hits, it hits like a train. The dagger may only deal 20-40 damage, but it has a higher critical hit rate (usually) and hits way more often. Remember Thief had triple attack. So, the occasional proc for up to 120 dmg (plus crit threats) but with 150-200 delay instead of 400-600 with 200 damage. Daggers can still outclass a Great Axe or Scythe overall because it hits more often, more opportunities for hits, and a miss is not as devastating, but when they deal similar damage, with half the delay ... that was the point of this thread. It's not that Marauder is a gimp class, it's a great class, but the damage of two-hand weapons doesn't match their delay, given the damage of one-hand weapons. There is a difference in damage, but it should be a greater distance. It wasn't as noticable when all weapons attacked at a similar pace, but now that Axes are twice as slow as Daggers, but deal -similar- but still greater damage, that's where the problem comes in. Solution? Increase damage to compensate for the delays.

Just saying that Gladiators and Pugs shouldn't be hitting as close in damage to Marauders and Lancers, given the new attack delays associated with them. The easy solution, again, is to increase the damage ratio that strength gives to two hand weapons vs one hand. Like in FFXI... Strength affected your damage more on a Great Sword than it did on a Sword, but the sword hits more often.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Like in FFXI...

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I SO hate this point...IMO any other comment loses it value if followed by this. A dead game shouldn't be the main reference for a brand new game. If FFXI was that good ppl would be playing it still...

But indeed you got a point at your post...not about buffing MRD...but about pointing how unbalanced FFXI battle system was. When you talk about it you ALWAYS will end talking about the 2 main flaws of it...delay and multi-hit. Dual wield also was completely unbalanced there (hopefully not gonna happen here...i'm already asking for twin katanas for NINs and twin knives for THFs so they would work exactly like PGL, having 2 hits with half power, keeping them it restricted to the class and balanced...secially since both THF and NIN also might be added as PGL job anyway.) but still the main flaws were these other 2 points...multi-hit attacks and haste gear were exactly ways to make up for long delays and, in the end, they became the main effect of the game...nowadays STR worth nothing...DEX worth nothing...Atk worth nothing...if the gear don't offer haste or the weapon don't offer multi-hit effect then they worth nothing...and if they keep copying FFXI battle system this game will be fated to this too...

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Think what will happen when Dual Wield comes into effect if the system remains this way.
Two weapons dealing 75% of the damage of Marauder .... coming together for 150% more damage. Ouch.

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I wouldn't be surprised if this happened. That's exactly how it was in FFXI. I think they even swung much more then 2 times faster for the most part. And, they always seemed to be favored as being in the haste cycle over a 2hander, for whatever odd reason. Though of course they did eventually fix it. It took a very long time for them to do that though.

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I SO hate this point...IMO any other comment loses it value if followed by this. A dead game shouldn't be the main reference for a brand new game. If FFXI was that good ppl would be playing it still...

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ummmm where is the problem in mentioning the things XI did right(grips/2h damage)? This is their next online game after all and the majority if FFXIVs player base is XI players. And really, a dead game? You realize it has more players then XIV right? And, I do think XI was that good personally. I would still be playing it if it wasn't 9 years old graphically and if most my friends didn't move to XIV.

What the heck else are we suppose to compare FFXIV too? There is a lot of things here that needs fixing that their last game went through a long time ago. These devs should know better and we shouldn't have half the problems that we do have.

If FFXI wasn't dead they wouldn't have to cut 8 servers a few months ago even tho the game still is receiving new content in a regular basis. The thing is that FFXI is saturated already...its not just the graphics. If they updated the graphics to FFXIV quality it still would have the population shrinking over time.

And when they turn this game into FFXI-2 it will be fated to follow the very same way. And about population, i really doubt FFXI has a bigger pop than this one...maybe next month we can discover this if they do a census here.

they still have more players even with the server merges, so whats your point? And what would be bad to be fated the way XI was? Would be pretty sweet if FFXIV could last a successful 9 years. No one here was saying FFXIV needs to be like FFXI. But when discussing what needs to be fixed in this game, FFXI is the easiest game to reference for obvious reasons.

Like i said...you can only compare pops after a census. Here we have less people per server but nearly 2x more servers.

And i know its a very sensitive point to poke (since its just like the eternal Sephiroth vs Kefka) but i don't like FFXI at all. I played that for about 6 years and all i got from there was an ulcer and a bunch of bitter memories. FFXI left a bad taste to anyone that already quit it...once the player quits it, they don't want to ever hear about it anymore...you can just ask around...ther will be always an excuse but those who quit it rarely will ever think twice before saying the don't want or that they can't...this bitter taste the game had is what i'm afraid of happening here too...

I'm not saying FFXI is a bad game...it had some masterpiece contents there...just like every FF does...but i think its not the best game (not even a good game for this actually) to be used as reference for this one. IMO FFT serie should be a way better reference than FFXI.

It's not so much that MRD necessarily needs a damage boost, it's just that there needs to be content in which a MRD may fit.

From the get go, this game has been about not attacking the yellow mobs. But MRD shines when attacking more than one mob. For example, the Skeletons in the Batraal fight. Even though MRD is a lame duck up to that point as it has no place in the Deepvoid Slave battle other than being an MP sponge -- unless it's the tank, of course.

However, if SE intends to make more battles like Dzemael then I agree that MRD needs to have it's focus shifted from okay damage to multiple enemies to significant damage to one enemy.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

It's not so much that MRD necessarily needs a damage boost, it's just that there needs to be content in which a MRD may fit.

From the get go, this game has been about not attacking the yellow mobs. But MRD shines when attacking more than one mob. For example, the Skeletons in the Batraal fight. Even though MRD is a lame duck up to that point as it has no place in the Deepvoid Slave battle other than being an MP sponge -- unless it's the tank, of course.

However, if SE intends to make more battles like Dzemael then I agree that MRD needs to have it's focus shifted from okay damage to multiple enemies to significant damage to one enemy.

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Agreed! ^^

They don't need change damage values of weapons, they need to adjust the effect of attributes on WS's. I'm pretty sure they're doing this for 1.19 with the Physical Level adjustment. As it stands, MRD still has higher DPS than GLA even with the introduction to AA. All they need to do is make it so STR has less of an impact on swords than axes. I'd rather they make it so damage is more focused on abilities/ws's used. They can still follow the FFXI formula of Haste/Multi-Hit weapons, but severely limit the effect of STR/DEX/etc on those types of weapons abilities/ws's.

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Originally Posted by Rexus

They don't need change damage values of weapons, they need to adjust the effect of attributes on WS's. I'm pretty sure they're doing this for 1.19 with the Physical Level adjustment. As it stands, MRD still has higher DPS than GLA even with the introduction to AA. All they need to do is make it so STR has less of an impact on swords than axes. I'd rather they make it so damage is more focused on abilities/ws's used. They can still follow the FFXI formula of Haste/Multi-Hit weapons, but severely limit the effect of STR/DEX/etc on those types of weapons abilities/ws's.

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Pretty much what I said in the previous thread, adjust how Strength impacts weapons differently for two-hand weapons. That doesn't mean Glad needs a nerf, but it means two-hand weapons should get a boost.

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Even though MRD is a lame duck up to that point as it has no place in the Deepvoid Slave battle other than being an MP sponge -- unless it's the tank, of course.

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A MRD can DD only on Deepvoid too with no problems. They shouldn't get hit by the Ogre as long as they know where to be and what to watch out for. Second Wind II and Bloodbath II have generally been enough for me in that fight to keep myself healed up. Haven't needed a mage to throw a cure my way yet for that fight. I only get hit by the ghosts on occasion since we tank it up top the whole time.

I do highly agree with what you said about needing more content for MRD type play though. It can be a hassle at times trying not to AOE anything lol.