A plea for 3.0 and beyond: Job Customization

OP, no i dont want allot of what you mention

although i'm by no means a beginner, i have played FFXI for 6years+ , and ive been in FFXIV since 1.0 Beta, ive seen allot of things come and go

now while i do agree that the class system is WTF, the fact that for tanking jobs (for example) you got 4 total options (GLA,MRD,PLD,WAR) which all 4 are essentially 2 Roles, is and unneeded.

granted they have realized this already with the announcement that DRK has NO Class (bunch of jerks!)

but what you're talking about is essentially the class system, just labeled JOB system.

Custom characters can be a good thing, but unless they increase the % rate of where stats matter, like Parry,Det,Crit,skill-speed,spell-speed etc, because as it stands roughly 100 Parry = 1% additional chance of parry, THATS where i want to customize if they tweak it , not Action abilities.

just my 2 cents.. now give em back, i'm not made of money !

Didn't feel like reading 5 pages of this, so I apologize if this was said.

But let's get real. This is one major reason that people didn't like 1.0's class system, because that's what you just described.

This would do nothing. The best layout would be found to best suit each jobs strengths and everone(read: alot of people) would just copy and use it. Nothing changed, most monks you see running around would be the same cookie cutter monk etc. SE foresaw this and decided to put a system in the game with no customizability to this degree and why shouldnt they? Why waste develeopment resources on a system they know players will break down into a few builds and trivialise.

As has probably been said time and time again, in almost all practical applications "class customization" only brings the illusion of customization.

In the end, there end up being 1-2 viable builds at the very most for each "class" because they are just far and away better than the rest. At it's best, this just adds to the tedium of leveling by forcing you to look up this information somewhere and do all the added things necessary to execute it. At it's worst, this forces you to re-roll your character because you made a shitty build your first time through because a) you didn't now better; b) the "best" builds hadn't been discovered yet; or, worst of all, c) a patch changed something that completely negates or gimps your build.

When I first saw that XIV didn't have skill trees, I was a little taken aback. I have come to expect them in all RPG's and I typically enjoy the creativity they bring. But the more I played the more I realized this was a brilliant decision due mostly to the points I made above, among others.

I honestly feel like a skill tree system would work a little bit better, so you would get all your skills and then have like 15 points over 60 levels to distribute to a tree of skills. Some would give you flat bonuses like "+xSTR, VIT, whatever" while others may be like "Inner Beast will now increase healing by an additional 5%".

In the case of MNK for instance, make it so that you can maybe augment 1 of the three Fist moves (only one) in such a way that you get different benefits. So like, Fists of Fire will also randomly apply a 30-60 potency dot for 12-20 seconds, or you can choose Fist of Winds upgrade that gives you the 10% speed buff but also increases TP regen in and out of combat, or the Fist of Earth trait that will allow youto Take 10% less damage from all sources but also give you a chance, when taking damage and a smaller chance when dealing damage, to give yourself the effects of stoneskin.

I feel like a system like this would vary builds more... That and giving gear properties that have procs and stuff on them. It will be nice when 3.0 comes out to see gear progression when there's more than 1 raid :p

Ragnarok Online has the best stat and job customization of all MMORPGs. Every MMORPG should base their stat and job system on it.
Just saying.

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Originally Posted by CodingSession

Ragnarok Online has the best stat and job customization of all MMORPGs. Every MMORPG should base their stat and job system on it.
Just saying.

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As someone who absolutely LOVES RO, this is both a great and terrible thing. Every single point I made above you has applied to every great RO build at some point in time. RIP North Wind Stalker in WoE, I will remember you always.

Insead of opening up 90% of class abilities to all classes. We instead fill Sentinel's now unfilled niche of a generic subclass. With a class that is commonly requested but currently impossible to work in and still reasonably please the fans as a class: Blue Mage.

Simply put: All players (Disciplines of War and Magic) will have access to "Blue magic" which will take the form of skills that either need MP, HP or TP to cast (as well as the usually free buff skills), as well as traits for those skills. Players can get the skills for a variety of monsters or other sources and place them on the Cross-Class skill list.

The abilities themselves will have a variety of applications to fill multiple roles for different classes, but will either have a long cool-down, require more points to cast or deal a debuff to either the caster, the entire group or everyone with a radius around the caster

Arguments I'd expect against this idea:

• But I wanted it as a CLASS: I think Blue Mage is inherently imbalanced as a class in a MMO that is more like WoW then XI. The method of learning abilities and the resulting high skill counts means that people will either be gimped or will be OP depending on their devotion to the class, especially considering that it can fill all three roles.
• But that will be OP: There is potential for abuse, yes. But as is, Blue Magic is uncharted territory for XIV, SE would have to code in new abilities to mobs and bosses. Basically the onus will be on SE to make sure the skills are balanced and that the mechanic will be implemented without any kinks.

would like to see a bluemage

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Originally Posted by Nethr

I would prefer a kind of Alternate Advancement system much like Everquest has. That way, once you hit the level cap, you can still level up and get stronger with more than just a gear grind.

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I've been saying this since I hit 50. I really miss AA. I think too much cross-classing of abilities is a bad idea, but the option to improve things like extending your dot a few seconds or up your heals by 1% etc. are nice touches. EQ's AA (for those that don't know) also allowed improvement of innate attributes such as STR, INT and others that aren't so clearly defined such as durability (increased defense) or improved evasion/dodge. Other AA abilities I'd like to have are things like Target/Mass Group Buff or amazing 24-hour recast (job-specific) actions.

The best part is that generally speaking, they were optional and didn't necessarily make players hugely "OP" over others; but once invested, they could make a difference. I left EQ in 2008 with 2500 AA, was still not maxed, and wanted more.

Please no. I get the appeal of vast customization, but it would only undo all of the teams hard work in maling everything balanced. I enjoy our current system. It limits discrimination and is flexible as well. Take bard for instance, it can be seen as support with its healing limit break and song. Black mages get access to physicks, which I have seen save fights. Summoners can rez and all healers and tanks can dps well if you know your job. I personally love to keep defense buffs on my dragoon so just in case the tank falls I can take hate until the healer can get the tank up. Its limited but it means that regaurdless of the party build essentially no job is useless. I enjoy that balance.

See, there's something people are failing to understand.

The developers want to make FF14 as unique as it possibly can. Make it their game, their baby. They can't do that by "borrowing" ideas from other games, especially from FF11. If they wanted to do that, they may as well just make a FF11-2 with a new skin. Sure, they have some similarities of course but they can't outright use the same exact system from another game and say it's there's. It would also require an entire rework of the job system as it is now, and expansions are typically used to introduce new content, not a new game entirely.

As much as you may way this game to be like others in the same genre, I don't see them implenting any kind of change to how the job system currently works.

- A WHM with Aetherflow / Energy Drain is a WHM with virtually infinite MP. It'd trivialize healing by making MP management unnecessary. I'd just spam Medica 2 and Cure 3 for the entire fight.

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Originally Posted by Failia

See, there's something people are failing to understand.

The developers want to make FF14 as unique as it possibly can. Make it their game, their baby. They can't do that by "borrowing" ideas from other games, especially from FF11. If they wanted to do that, they may as well just make a FF11-2 with a new skin. Sure, they have some similarities of course but they can't outright use the same exact system from another game and say it's there's. It would also require an entire rework of the job system as it is now, and expansions are typically used to introduce new content, not a new game entirely.

As much as you may way this game to be like others in the same genre, I don't see them implenting any kind of change to how the job system currently works.

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And as for that... There was already a MMO that borrowed many ideas from FFXI. It was called FFXIV 1.0.
I really doubt they wanna go down that route anymore... lol

I'm not a huge fan of the particular system you've proposed, but I am more generally in favor of more ways for players to differentiate themselves from other players of the same job.

A few more ideas:

A combination of FFXI and ARR.
Pick a subjob or a combination of two where you can take most of the lvl 1-30 abilities. (with a 5-10 cross-skill maximum)
Yes it is still going to result in stronger builds and cookie-cutters, though we already have requirements such as Swift Cast for healers, at least you wouldn't need to level nearly every job to be viable.

Borrowing Traits

Talent Trees
(WHM)
+1-5 points to raise all magic healing potency 1-5%
+1-5 points to reduce casting time by 5-25%
+1-3 points to increase Cure 2 potency by 5-15%
+1-2 points to increase max MP by 5-10%... and on and on.
The above would have a "Best allocation" posted somewhere, but at least every decision has some positive effect.

I'm really hoping that DRK not needing a class means that classes will be gone and something will be done for custom builds in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

The sub job system in XI was nice giving person ability to mix and match the different jobs.

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XI's system was 10000000000000000000000000000000000000x better than XIV's system.

Sadly these devs are trying to control things to a fault and hurting the experience because of it.

How the system is now the xclass skill window is nothing more than an illusion of choice. If you don't get X, Y, and Z abilities from it you are screwed because your class is tuned around having them.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

It limits discrimination and is flexible as well.

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LOL?

There is NO flexibility. Hold on while I remove raging strikes from my BLM's bar and ask people how they feel about that. Read above. They literally tune around you picking specific xclass skills.

I'm happy to support this, though what happens when a second job comes out that takes advantage of this and becomes too strong? Not saying it will but, balancing issues to happen.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

How the system is now the xclass skill window is nothing more than an illusion of choice. If you don't get X, Y, and Z abilities from it you are screwed because your class is tuned around having them.

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It's less so than FFXI. Oh you're a SMN and don't have /WHM? lol@you

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LOL?

There is NO flexibility. Hold on while I remove raging strikes from my BLM's bar and ask people how they feel about that. Read above. They literally tune around you picking specific xclass skills.

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It's like you want extra choices just to have them. It'll take all of 20 hours to figure out which is the best and then if you're not using the best, you're being look down on or ostracized. Which is exactly the same as it is now.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It's less so than FFXI. Oh you're a SMN and don't have /WHM? lol@you

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Depended on the job though. For some jobs, subjobs were actually flexible and let you fill different roles (My main was RDM, and I used /WHM, /BLM, /NIN, and /DRK in endgame raids, all for different reasons). But its true that for some other jobs, there was not much variety in subjobs (SMN had basically one, WHM could do /BLM or /SMN but it didnt make much difference, etc).

Of course, FFXIV doesn't have the role flexibility that FFXI did for some jobs.

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Originally Posted by Khyra

Of course, FFXIV doesn't have the role flexibility that FFXI did for some jobs.

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I agree, the role is set in stone. You are a DPS, Healer, or tank. That's fine. But at variation is encouraged and not terribly imbalanced toward one specific setup. Although, going forward it'll be hard to balance all these new jobs effectively especially with all the new skills that will come with expansions. I worry if we're going to fall into the "illusion of choice" model that plagues every single MMO just to satisfy people who want to be different for the sake of being different. Such is the nature of individualism.

People seem to want this, but some feel it would "unbalance" jobs as they are. Currently there are cries for buffing dps classes such as a post stating that BRD is lowest and needs help, then I see another post stating SMN is lowest, even lower than BRD's. And of course the DRG post that got a official reply from someone at SE prompting all of these "buff my job now" posts. The point is that whatever changes made there will always be people complaining that their favorite job needs to be buffed. Things will never be perfectly balanced so how about we add some job playstyle choices?

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

Things will never be perfectly balanced so how about we add some class playstyle choices?

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Because it will be nothing more than an illusion to satisfy a few people and then add in more balancing complications. In Diablo 2 and earlier versions of WoW, players had skills systems, that allowed for customization. In the current version of WoW and in D3, we do not have those. Do you know why? Because an overwhelming majority will simply choose the current best spec and play with it. Parties will force you to play that spec, and then kick you out if you don't. I never played version 1, which was a lot more open, but I've read in a few posts, this was the case, you had to have certain class and spec to participate.

What you want is something like Diablo 3 has, in which a class has access to every skill, and the gear that class is wearing determines what that's class's spec is. The caveat, however, is that Diablo 3 can be soloed, whereas FFXIV requires group play. Once group play enters the picture, the mentality of the best spec will kick in, and you won't have the choices you think you do*.


* Outside of solo play that, obviously. Or if you want to form your own group that supports your snowflake.

If you kept the limited cross class slots (5 max), remove the restrictions and redesign the abilities that get cross classed, using traits to buff specialists so they don't get overshadowed, this would work fantastic and avoid most of the doomsaying in this thread.

But we need to REALLY pick and choose what skills should be available to cross-class. It should bring a little of that class' ability without overshadowing what they do. PLD's can be Flash, since it still works as a threat generator, but it's got to be that PLD's is much better and they have better mitigation for the job. Cure or Cure II can work great, as long as WHM still gets all the better heals exclusively. I'd say each job should bring to the table up to three core cross class skills and two core traits. Tops. Your 5 slots must decide what skills or traits to use.

Yes, there will be FOTM builds. But you know what? Other games deal. Devs change things. Eventually a good enough balance will arise.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

People seem to want this, but some feel it would "unbalance" jobs as they are. Currently there are cries for buffing dps classes such as a post stating that BRD is lowest and needs help, then I see another post stating SMN is lowest, even lower than BRD's. And of course the DRG post that got a official reply from someone at SE prompting all of these "buff my job now" posts. The point is that whatever changes made there will always be people complaining that their favorite job needs to be buffed. Things will never be perfectly balanced so how about we add some job playstyle choices?

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The idea of choice is an illusion, at least as far as the general populous goes with how you play a game. Yes, there will be the rogue playstyle here and there, but generally speaking, any given player will simply opt to the best cookie cutter "choice" (whether because they're doing it intentionally or "forced" into it). There will always be the optimal ability that every DPS, heals, or tanks need to get to perform at their best. Is it mandatory? Probably not. Will it help them perform significantly better? Most likely. In fact, one likely "mandatory" class ability that everyone will want to take is Summon and Summon II, as those are ACN abilities, not SMN/SCH, and has zero negative impact to having out... plus it's a Carbuncle pet!

How often did you choose to have a revive while you were a class and were given the freedom to select practically any class ability? Probably not often as a physical DPS, given the low amount of MP you have to work with. Within the limitations of 5 sub-abilities, people will almost always go for the cookie cutter that helps their role, because they'd severely gimp themselves not to. If, however, they gave us 10+ actions to use (like how it is when we're a class), the likelihood is a lot higher as to the idea of customization. But then comes the fear of balance. It seems like the FFXIV dev team does not like the idea of people breaking from the trinity roles and their proper jobs. Some players are very clever about how they can optimize their freedoms, and likely will find a way to do things more efficiently than sticking to the trinity. Remember the Titan-Egi tanking for Ramuh EX? SE clearly liked that idea... /nerf.

I'm not saying the idea of options and "choice" is bad, but rather that the notion of it actually providing diversity is a fairy tale. The only way that we'd see such fantastical situations as a norm is if they were to allow us to use 10+ (if not all) class abilities without having to be selective about it. That'd be fun, but as I pointed out... it'll come with its own problems that could technically break the game.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

Yes, there will be FOTM builds. But you know what? Other games deal. Devs change things. Eventually a good enough balance will arise.

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The issue is not whether it can be done, but why. The devs could do that, and then enter in the constant re balancing dance this would cause. At the end of the day, the vast majority of players will just play the current FoTM build. Outside of the modest experimentation that happens (that leads to FoTM builds), what value did you add to the game?

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Originally Posted by Delily

The issue is not whether it can be done, but why. The devs could do that, and then enter in the constant re balancing dance this would cause. At the end of the day, the vast majority of players will just play the current FoTM build. Outside of the modest experimentation that happens (that leads to FoTM builds), what value did you add to the game?

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Depth. Flexibility. Some experimentation. As long as there's more than one way to do things, even by the boss (which a well designed set of abilities will accomplish), then mission accomplished.

People overestimate how horrible it is to have customization that results in a few optimized solutions. There is NO customization system in existence that will not result in such a thing. That doesn't make it useless to try. The same complaints, even some of the same FOTM issues, will happen with or without the system in place. That's just a system still being refined, not a huge game destroying problem.

Sorry to say, regardless of how customizable you make a system, players will do what they always do. Find the "best" way to be a WAR and if you arent doing it the "best" way, you are doing it wrong #kicknoobsfromparty.

Its fine how it is, it easier for the devs to ballance content and create new content, I know what I'm getting when I see a particular class in my party, and having the freedom to change jobs at the drop of a hat is far beyond any customization you see in other MMO's. Just be patient, this is vanilla ARR. this is the first wave of skills. when level caps get raised and new skills get added the customization will naturally expand. As it goes, I have different hotbar sets for different roles I play in a party, I'm WAR and have an emnity set for dungeons, I have a PvP set for damage and CC, and i have a DPS for when i off tank and still want to help out.

Sorry, OP. I dont agree we need to change anything, it just needs time to grow. with each patch, it gets better.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

Depth. Flexibility. Some experimentation. As long as there's more than one way to do things, even by the boss (which a well designed set of abilities will accomplish), then mission accomplished.

People overestimate how horrible it is to have customization that results in a few optimized solutions. There is NO customization system in existence that will not result in such a thing. That doesn't make it useless to try. The same complaints, even some of the same FOTM issues, will happen with or without the system in place. That's just a system still being refined, not a huge game destroying problem.

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Fair enough, but there is a return on investment. It is really worth the amount of time and money it would take for the developers to implement this system, only to wind right back up where we currently are, and then incur the additional costs of balancing? Nothing is free. The time the developers could spend in building this out could be spent in building new content. Which would you rather have?

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Originally Posted by Delily

Fair enough, but there is a return on investment. It is really worth the amount of time and money it would take for the developers to implement this system, only to wind right back up where we currently are, and then incur the additional costs of balancing? Nothing is free. The time the developers could spend in building this out could be spent in building new content. Which would you rather have?

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The system I proposed is already in place. The cost in terms of time and money would be in redesigning the skills/traits to get this dynamic together. And I guarantee they're already redesigning skills for 3.0 anyway regardless of the dev's stance on this issue.

It might even be easier in some cases than keeping the existing setup. The numbers I threw out are just placeholders. With the number of jobs in this game as it is, even if we got 2 core abilities + 2 core traits (which is a lot easier to balance, since you can distill what that job offers to its core then) that would result in an overwhelming choice. Especially as they add more jobs.

ARR has hard dps checks if you are not min maxing to meet these dps checks you wipe. So there is really only 1 way to do it and that is with what gives you the most dps. When you have a bunch of options people will figure out the optimal spec and anyone who doesn't use it will be sub optimal and most likley be kicked out of groups.

With a lot of choices there is only the illusion of choice. You have many ways to do it wrong but only 1 way to do it right.

I see "Choice is an illusion" as the weakest argument here along with "It would be hard to do" when we have the some of the most talented devs in the world working on this game.

The only time choice would truly be seen as an illusion would be for the players taking on the hardest content in the game (coils/extremes) and need that best build to progress. My suggestion would change little for them as they would play the best build as they are told, however the rest of us can make our own decisions and enjoy unique playstyles.

Typically a decent player wouldn't feel compelled to kick someone until it is obvious they are failing. At that point one would consider another setup. Don't want to get kicked from PUGs? Make some friends who share similar playstyle interests.

You would end up with the "best" abilities for X job. Not to mention one has to level almost everything to be viable. This is demotivating for starters.

What I do agree with is this 1.0 remnant class system. When they remove that, they will have much bigger options to create jobs way more interesting to play. I recon DRK will be refreshing since it will have no base class. Let's hope they do the same for the current ones too.

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Originally Posted by M0xie

I've been saying this since I hit 50. I really miss AA. I think too much cross-classing of abilities is a bad idea, but the option to improve things like extending your dot a few seconds or up your heals by 1% etc. are nice touches. EQ's AA (for those that don't know) also allowed improvement of innate attributes such as STR, INT and others that aren't so clearly defined such as durability (increased defense) or improved evasion/dodge. Other AA abilities I'd like to have are things like Target/Mass Group Buff or amazing 24-hour recast (job-specific) actions.

The best part is that generally speaking, they were optional and didn't necessarily make players hugely "OP" over others; but once invested, they could make a difference. I left EQ in 2008 with 2500 AA, was still not maxed, and wanted more.

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Wasn't AA basically the Merit System in FFXI (well, the other way around)? Character progression after hitting level cap?

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

I see "Choice is an illusion" as the weakest argument here along with "It would be hard to do" when we have the some of the most talented devs in the world working on this game.

The only time choice would truly be seen as an illusion would be for the players taking on the hardest content in the game (coils/extremes) and need that best build to progress. My suggestion would change little for them as they would play the best build as they are told, however the rest of us can make our own decisions and enjoy unique playstyles.

Typically a decent player wouldn't feel compelled to kick someone until it is obvious they are failing. At that point one would consider another setup. Don't want to get kicked from PUGs? Make some friends who share similar playstyle interests.

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Yeah, this basically. Or "it's hard to balance". Well yeah it's hard, but that's the dev's job to figure it out. If something being "hard to balance" was an excuse, then we'd only have one class that had 1 attack move, 1 healing move, and 1 tanking move. I bet a game like Dota 2 would be soooooooo fun if the dev's said screw it, this is too hard to balance :(.

I've come the to the realization that no matter how many skills you are given people still won't be able to dodge mechanics or fully execute DPS rotations properly. While I can't go the "Illusion of Choice" route I can go with "Over Saturation". This means skills will still be diluted down to the best choices anyways wasting the developer's time and energy.

The only thing that changes is what skills players die with on their hotbars because they will still wipe on the same things. Final Fantasy is based on the diversity of jobs not the over complexity of them.

Instead of focusing on a cross class system they should focus on adding more jobs to give players a broader spectrum of play styles.

No, because even when you have the ability to customize what you have for the sake of being unique, there will always be the best setup. It's the same like having several talent trees, and then picking what is arguably the best talents possible for your role/job. Either way, everyone is still going to be the same to be effective. So it is fine as is.

I wouldn't mind job merits and merits..

SE should add polarity between the Classes and Jobs by treating Jobs like a separate specialized tree like how WoW has 3-4 specializations for every class which makes their play style radically different from each other with radically different mechanics. This way the each customization is viable.

Ultimately, a question like this boils down to how much you value balance. SE can theoretically offer customization (though none of the FF titles have featured much of it; in many ways, they shouldn't even properly be called RPGs), but doing so will guarantee that a degree of balance is sacrificed.

Personally, I'd rather see the customization. FFXIV is balanced almost to a fault - and the benefits don't outweigh the costs, in my opinion. I'd like to see skill trees, ideally, but I doubt both SE's motivation and ability to actually implement such a large change successfully. More realistically, I think a more carefully developed Merit system would be a fine addition to the title. I'm also surprised they haven't capitalized on Materia more; certainly a Magian-style system for collections of Materia that can be infused (and removed) in any gear could go a long way. For instance, for a Healer-style job, you could have Materia branches that focus on Spell Speed, add a small AoE effect onto single-target spells, improve MP maintenance, maybe add a small Stoneskin effect to cures (like Afflatus Solace in FFXI). These branches could be leveled via a Magian-like grind, and maybe inserted into, say, a body piece. The trick of this would be making sure that the paths offer meaningful, useful changes to how a job plays, without any one path being a clear-cut winner. Of course, another important piece here is, players would have to be limited to at most one of these types of Materia per job.

As an aside, while I admittedly haven't read the entire thread, I think the idea of simply opening up existing abilities would be a huge mistake. There are two large weaknesses here.

Firstly, far from adding customization, such a system would undoubtedly lead to more "required abilities" for people to be accepted in groups. I suspect there would quickly be a list of "best" abilities hashed out, which 90+% of people use, thereby eliminating the feel of customization. It would also cause more balance issues than it's worth. Customization options should most likely focus on allowing a player to shape how they play a predefined role, rather than allowing the role itself to dramatically change. For instance, DD should be able to customize how they deal damage, but they shouldn't be able to transform themselves into half-arsed healers or tanks (as an example).

Secondly, such a change would have an uneven impact in terms of how much time investment was required by a player. Individuals with everything at level 50 could take advantage of loosened restrictions the second they log on, whereas new players starting would have an (increasingly large) amount of leveling to do before they began to realize the full effects. I don't think that fits very well with the spirit of FFXIV.

Just my two gil, anyway.

Sorry, but no. Sure, get rid of the classes but things won't be "custom" because there's going to be a "Best Build" and if you don't have it, you won't be wanted. It's that simple. If there was a great deal of customization to classes, it would throw them off balance. It's just how it goes, it can't be done while also keeping balance.

Also, a big difference between two players isn't gear, it's how well they play. Well geared doesn't mean well played.