then what is next after easing up on Atma drop rates? Then everyone will be whining that 1500 myth per book are too much and SE should lower that too?
I've been through the Atma grind, having a full time job and so on. I whined endlessly to my friend who finished her second Atma set in like a week while I was still at 4/12 on my first set. Yes, it is a shitty grind but once you get it, you have (after all upgrades) the best weapon in game. The best weapon should not be something that can be obtained in a week.
If you don't want to do the grind, go and buy the weapons you can get from tokens. 1300 tokens plus an UAT is ridiculously easy to obtain nowadays and the weapons are pretty nice.
ATMA nerfing - An addressal to those who object to it.
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10-02-2014, 06:58 PMStarvald
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10-02-2014, 07:08 PMTaliphI'll just put this here, maybe educate you a bit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope -
10-02-2014, 07:14 PMStarvaldNot quite sure what you are trying to prove. That you are good at googling and posting wiki links?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliph
The FFXIV community is constantly whining about things: atma drop rates, ramuh too hard, second coil should be a walk in the park.....it is not too far fetched that an improvement in atma drop rates will lead to more demands on objectives in the nexus quest line.
I am quite sure that in the future SE will improve the conditions but I don't think the time is yet here. If people now don't have the time for grinding maybe waiting a few more months shouldn't be that hard of a problem. -
10-02-2014, 07:17 PMTaliph
Simply put, the argument you state falls under the logical fallacy portion of that article, read it and you will see how it applies.
Btw, myth tomes will likely be phased out, just like philo tomes were, in the upcoming patch.
Edit to add: a proper and non-fallacious use of slippery slope would be to surmise from previous nerfs to old content that the atma(and all other content you mention) will likely be nerfed in the near future as part of the games design philosophy. So all the detractors thankfully are wasting their breath. -
10-02-2014, 07:19 PMRiceisNice>Atma is not BiS. It's technically not even a Ilvl 100 item, it only has that tag with the actual stats of a Ilvl 90 item. It never obtains Ilvl 100 stats until you upgrade it to Animus (which is the animus step and on the animus weapon, this thread is specifically toward Atma)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
>Animus and Novus have all been indirectly nerfed due to how saturated the game is with mythology tomes, mostly due to hunts. Also, the ire that Atma earns on the forums is far more than what animus gets (with the only thing I've seen is some of the FATE appearances such as Giant Seps...which has died out in thread history) So in response to what taliph mentiin, you are making a really huge jump from the RNG-ordeal from atma versus the myth costs of animus.
>1300 tokens still takes three weeks. That's essentially the same progression as a typical person working towards Novus with the Alexendrites. The fact that unweathered weapons are even more easy to obtain in comparison to relic leaves me to question just what place does relic have in the grand scheme of thing as far as gearing up is concerned. It hasn't even been BiS up until Nexus, and that's only from secondary stats.
>>People keep saying that they don't want relic to be handed out with minimal effort...Well thats the thing...the Atma step outright fails with that with how incredibly varied RNG can be. I don't think its doing a very good job at being the gateholder if people can get all 12 within 2 days... it suddenly becomes an easier and shorter step than zenith even in today's mythology standards, all the while the same possibility of someone taking months to get all 12.
>And people have quit the game over this. "It's optional content, get over it.". Not everything appeals to everyone. The same people who make this statement sympathize with people who have quit frontlines because cleric stance got removed, because their choice of content doesn't appeal to them anymore. -
10-02-2014, 07:24 PM16bitBounty
If you fate grind 2 hours a day and call it a full days work then you deserve to be disappointed. I did a full ATMA grind in around 30 hours of play time. Not that big of a deal. I've done ATMA twice. Maybe 37-40 hours the first time. Animus grind was a bigger pain in the ass than ATMA grind. Nothing needs to be changed. You can get better weapons if you want them without grinding.
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10-02-2014, 07:30 PMRumpelstiltzkin
I haven't done it yet, and I am about to give it a go I think, but honestly I am happy there is actually something in this game with some RNG. I mean everything else is just tokens tokens tokens. I hate it so much because it is so extremely boring, I don't care if it "is more fair". The excitement I get from finally seeing that item I want drop is for the most part something I miss so I don't at all mind if I have to work harder than everyone else to get it since it also means I get the excitement of hoping this guy might be the one to drop and the sense of accomplishment and joy when I finally get the drop. I am not saying I don't understand why people don't agree with me, but there are no "facts and reality" here. Telling people to ignore the other side because they don't agree won't help your cause honestly. Discussion is good because there are always two sides to the same coin.
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10-02-2014, 07:34 PMZumi
They already said they were going to nerf it when 2.4 comes out.
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10-02-2014, 07:38 PMRiceisNice[Citation Needed]. Only thing I got so far was that we were told to prepare Atmas for Ninja if we wanted to get their relic weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
...Unless they're fishing us here and they want us to grind Atma more with these rates, only for them to increase it on 2.4. (Which unfortunately... I see this as a possibility with how some of the past updates have been handled) -
10-02-2014, 07:45 PMSythSynnerThis right here is what I have been repetitively been trying to tell others on other threads. So many players have reported (Including myself) that they got all of their Atma in a much quicker time frame (compare to those 'nerf atma' players) while running SOLO (Chocobo can be included, I know).Quote:
Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart
Above that I have seen players pop into a zone, ask for 'Atma Farming Party' (Lol, really? Tagging makes zero difference) and then 1-2 hours later say "F this, I am out." While I have been there hours before they got there. (While I did get all 12 of mine within 2 day time frame, I did NOT give up in a zone or on my grind till I got said Atma in that zone. The most time I spent in 1 zone non-stop was 18hrs and that was in Outer La Noscea.)
Anyways, running solo (with or without Chocobo) should up your chances of getting an Atma. It helped me and also a few friends that were on that part of the quest.
Again, like I have said in 6 billion other threads made for QQ Atma QQ, I hope this info helps. Stick to 1 zone, be solo, and do not give up. Try to hit every FATE, not just ones you feel like. Above that, Karma can be a b*tch. If you see only 1-2 other players along side you doing the same thing, help finish the FATE, do not just kill a mob and move to the next... don't be a d*ck. -
10-02-2014, 07:50 PMHik0lol , perfect exemple of "Quote:
Originally Posted by 16bitBounty
300 hundred fates achivment in last septemberQuote:
Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart
1k not reached yet!!
=> you got 2weapon in less than 700 fates, less than 30 fate per atma average :you didnt suffer at all!! -
10-02-2014, 07:53 PMSapphic
Nerf makes something less or weaker, if a spell that's nerfed it's made less. If it's buffed it's made stronger.
"Nerfing" Atma will make the drop rate lower.
Buffing Atma will increase the drop rate.
Careful what you ask for XD -
10-02-2014, 07:53 PMJonBigwood
I suspect the atma drop has been raised already, and it will be raised more in the future, as animus and novus are quicker with the higher myth drop too, and nexus light advance will be made easier in the future (but not until some further upgrade has been created and some time passed.)
As obtaining the relic can be done now in a couple of days and it used to take weeks, upgrading to Zenith now is super easy instead of taking weeks, it's logical the subsequent upgrades will be made easier as time passes. Getting ilvl90 gear took many weeks and now it's trivially easy to get.
New people that join the game have to be able to catch up in a reasonable time. The newest gear will remain a time sink and difficult to obtain but the previous ones will be made easier so that catching up is possible. Without that, new players would have a nearly impossible to fill gap with the first arrived. -
10-02-2014, 07:56 PM16bitBountyQuote:
Originally Posted by Hik0
No, I'm a perfect example of someone who actually worked to get something. You should get off the forums, quit crying, and do some fate grinding. Oh, don't forget to equip your Zenith weapon. -
10-02-2014, 07:59 PMAegisBut I've seen at least a dozen people on here assure me they've done thousands of FATEs and haven't got a full set. You're not going to accuse these people of misrepresenting themselves are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexiii
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10-02-2014, 08:00 PM16bitBountyPeople by nature come to the forums to complain, of course you're going to hear lots of people bitching about not getting their ATMAs to drop. These people are lazy and want to be spoon fed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
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10-02-2014, 08:01 PMSythSynner
Also...
Lmfao, worst end of RNG? Ever heard of Wakfu? Currently 160 levels. Starting around 135ish it will take a day or 2 of playing to get another level. You want gear? Grind away on mobs that drop loot. (0.1%, 0.3%, 0.5%, 1%, 5%) These are the drop rates of 98% of all the items in the game. (Some even go as low as 0.01%.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart
So thinking 5% DR is a bad way to go for RNG, think again. There are worst out there. 5% is a damn good solid DR for something as good as the Relic.
(The main Wakfu site, has an Encyclopedia that shows items in the game, etc. As well as the drop rates. So you can check for yourself if you like.) -
10-02-2014, 08:02 PM16bitBounty
Ah the days of running Dreggon Dungeon a billion and five times and never seeing a Vulbus Dofus. (Ex-Dofus vet here).
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10-02-2014, 08:10 PMSythSynnerLol, I never played Dofus, I hear good things about it tho. But yeah, I can see where you are getting at. Took me over 2 weeks to get a cape, a CAPE! After getting it I out leveled it, luckly it was still good (and best for my build/class) till like 30 levels passed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 16bitBounty
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10-02-2014, 08:28 PMHavenchild
Can I really be the only person who thinks alot of the people on these forums exaggerate their numbers?
To first claim they dedicate several hours on end to farming atma and then to claim they haven't gotten a full set in all of these months, I find these two statements to be quite opposing as time and time again I see a completely different situation in game with many users on third or thensome sets already. -
10-02-2014, 08:31 PM16bitBountyQuote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
It really is a shame that we can't sell ATMA shards. I'd make a killing selling them to all these lazy people who don't want to have to work for anything. -
10-02-2014, 08:35 PMStarvaldI never said Atma was BiS. I said Atma after all upgrades (which I would hope people would understand as upgrade to Nexus) is best weapon in game only rivaled by High Allagan. But seriously, if someone doesn't have the patience to grind for Atma I would guess they don't make it into Coil 2 either. Because running for High Allagan weapon takes even longer than Atma unless you really really have a lot of luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Are you seriously complaining that 1300 token still take 3 weeks to get? Again, if someone cannot wait 3 weeks to be able to buy unweathered (with UATs which nobody ever wants anymore in ST) then I would really suggest that that person should not even think of getting Atmas to begin with because the time to put in and subsequently to upgrade the weapon is certainly more than 3 weeks.
We had the same discussions about relics when Titan was still hard. Everyone and their mothers was complaining that the Titan fight was the only thing making it impossible for them to get their relic weapons and that they have been trying to for ages to get through it...sounds familiar? Maybe because it is very similar to the whining we get nowadays about Atmas. Now you do Titan in DF and it is a one shot most of the time. Back in the days I think the success rate rivaled the drop rate of Atmas unless you had a FC or were really lucky in DF. But trying to run it with PUG...forget about ever making it. Exact same discussion, exact same responses ranging from "get over it" to "i completely understand".
If people cannot get over the fact that they won't get to nexus in 2 days, then maybe they should try for something else or just wait a few more months until SE will lower the requirements. If they gonna quit out of frustration, then I don't think there is anything we can do about it. Because really??? Why do you need Atma and then Nexus so urgently? Unless you are a hardcore raider, every weapon will do its job at the level you are playing. But if it is really something you cannot live without, then i guess you should shoulder your weapon and start grinding because it won't get any better any time soon.
EDIT: Oh and before I forget. After Echo got introduced and Titan got easier, people were still flocking the forums whining about not being able to beat it in DF...so, I still dont't think the whole slippery slope thingy applies to my statements because people will always find something else to whine about once one thing is "improved" or made easier. -
10-02-2014, 08:35 PMAegisYeah, what I see on the forums in no way matches what I see in game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
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10-02-2014, 08:52 PM16bitBountyQuote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
Basically, they're wanting to show off to their friends that they have a cool looking weapon that is hard to obtain but at the same time make it easy to obtain because they're too lazy to obtain it. Gotta look cool, right? -
10-02-2014, 09:45 PMTeirshinUm, grats? :rolleyes: (claim whatever you want if it makes you feel better about yourself, it carries zero weight here)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexiii
Um, grats again? :rolleyes: (see point above)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexiii
And.... SE having already made claims that they would have difficulty alphabetizing a list.... do you honestly think they put any more effort into writing a shi##y RNG script than they had to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexiii
I'm thinking... no. -
10-02-2014, 09:50 PMLemuriaThis would be a fine argument, if you were actually getting a relic. In actuality you're getting nothing but access to smaller upgrades. Atma is merely a key to unlock the weapon's potential -- it does literally nothing for the weapon itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by SythSynner
That, more than any other reason, is why the atma grind needs to be toned down. It's boring, repetitive and gives literally ZERO reward. -
10-02-2014, 09:53 PM16bitBountyIt gave me plenty of reward. An ATMA relic weapon which I upgraded to Animus which I'll now use forever as a glamour for easier to obtain items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
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10-02-2014, 09:57 PMStarvaldI am sorry but why are you even trying to get Atma then if all you get as a "reward" (which apparently isn't even a reward for you) is access to some "smaller upgrades" as you so nicely put it. If there is nothing at the end of the grind that interests you, don't do the grind. Simple as that! If everyone would see the upgrades to Novus and Nexus as just smaller upgrades, I don't see a reason why there's such a hype around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
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10-02-2014, 10:17 PMSymbiantThe jist of your post is "my opinion is the only thing that matters and every other opinion holds no validity"Quote:
Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart
Unfortunately with negative bullish attitudes like this achieves absolutely nothing. Most communities will shun such aggression.
In future posts you might want to be a little more political and you might actually convince some of the naysayers. -
10-02-2014, 10:18 PMLemuriaMe neither, but then surely that's just another reason why it shouldn't be so difficult to obtain? Getting Animus and Novus COMBINED are still infinitely more tolerable and faster than Atma since you can see some real progression to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
Assume for a second you're amazing at Fates and each one only takes 5 minutes to complete (yeah, right). Assuming that also you're able to instantly teleport to each Fate and get right into the action, and yet further assuming that the average Fate count for 12 atmas is 500 total completed. Put that all together and Atma farming should take you 41 hours of total grind. Now let's also assume that you're a human being who plays an average of 4 hours per day, that's 11 days play for the atmas alone.
We're talking about a lot of liberties taken here. 5 minutes is a very small time for a Fate. I've not accounted for travelling between them nor for any other FFXIV activities such as teleporting to other maps or completing your daily quests. I've also not accounted for the period of time where no Fates spawn in your target area which can happen quite frequently.
Now remember that that's 41 hours of utter mindless grind. Running low level content. With maybe a tiny pool of gil and seals as compensation. How can any SANE player consider that to be enjoyable? It's not even as though you can level up another class during this grind since everything has to be done with the job equipping the Zenith! So you're forced to take this on your level 50 job which get's nothing out of it. -
10-02-2014, 10:32 PM16bitBounty
When are they faster? Took me a twice as long to do Animus as Atma and I did a book a day, Yesterday I did two books.
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10-02-2014, 10:44 PMStarvaldAgain, if you personally don't get anything out of the Atma hunt, don't do it. Nobody is forcing you to participate. And surely, not doing it shouldn't be a big problem if whatever awaits you at the end is of no great interest to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
I didn't find it so hot constantly dying to Titan because people claimed lag whenever they got hit by Weight or flew of the platform because apparently their mother was streaming her daily soap opera in the room next to them. Still, I went through it and got my relic after quite a long trial time.
After successfully getting all 12 atmas, swearing profusely and bitching about it, I feel I actually accomplished something and can finally upgrade to Novus and then Nexus. Yes it is a mindless grind at times but I actually did some fates I have never done before....that counts as something in my books. And you are completely independent from other players so nobody can complain about others holding them back this time around. That is also something I appreciate.
Could I live without the grind? Sure I could. But then how would you incorporate a challenging step in the Atma hunt that people won't complain about again?
I think regardless of what SE would do, you will always find some people not being happy about it. Should we always cater to them because they want stuff right here and right now without any effort? I don't think so. -
10-02-2014, 10:53 PMMythToken
I want you to suffer.....
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10-02-2014, 11:02 PMMalevictonSay that to my 2 high allagan weapons and 7/12 atma :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
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10-02-2014, 11:03 PM16bitBountySpend less time doing Coil and more time doing Fates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malevicton
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10-02-2014, 11:04 PMSessurea
having a problem with other people having a problem, ah the absurdities of the official forum never cease ....
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10-02-2014, 11:05 PMTeirshinPeople like you are part of the problem. You throw out "no effort" as if the people who are getting the shaft on RNG havent put in plenty of time AND effort and still gotten moogled by SE's stupid system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
Just because YOU got lucky....... -
10-02-2014, 11:11 PMStarvaldThanks for your input. It is noted! Next upgrade SE introduces, I will ask them for an uber weapon with a nice bow around it for you which you get via moogle post ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teirshin
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10-02-2014, 11:14 PMExstalI'll raise to 3 High Allagan and 32/36 Atma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malevicton
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10-02-2014, 11:30 PMTeirshinWhy? I certainly dont need it. I've been smart enough to avoid stupid things like ATMA grind, but that doesnt mean I dont feel for those getting screwed by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starvald
People who got their ATMA within a reasonable timeframe though need to stop and realize that they got lucky and stop crapping on those who are still busting their backs against SE's stupid system.