Relic weapons situation post expansion

If they add another upgradeable weapon like relic, since they love to gate everything, I wouldn't be surprised if you have to have the finished zodiac relic to start on the "new" one.

If they do that, expect them to tone down the quest. Just like 1.0 Relic -> 2.0 Relic.

Wouldn't be surprised if they toned down some of the steps immensely for 2.4 since they said that it was on the table when the ilvl goes up.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Animus is bad. Where is the animus complaining?

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Part of the lack of complaining is simply the fact that there is tangible, easily-seen progress whereas Atma is so random you have absolutely no guarantee of making any progress over the next hour or two.

That being said, they would definitely have to nerf both phases in the future, as they are simply insane timesinks for very little in the way of benefit. The time cost/benefit ratio is heavily skewed. At least Novus gets you something for the time and effort with all that crit/det (and you can throw in a third stat for minimal DPS loss while saving millions of gil if you're smart).

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Originally Posted by Felis

I fixed it a bit.
Even for the Animus quests you can only do the books with the relict you want to upgrade.

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To be fair, you can hunt atma with any class with a Zenith weapon.

That has nothing to do with queues, though. :3

I want to believe that different relics moving forward will have different quests, especially once we start moving to other continents and such, since those jobs will be native to those places and may have their own awesome stories of what they used to be and how to make them that way again. I'm only finishing my relic upgrades for my main class, and I keep one of my side jobs at Zenith so I can use it to gather Atma, though I do hope they diversify stuff to do for new relics later on based on where the relics come from.

I just wish they ease the grind a bit and not make the relic quest not too scattered all over the place. people will want to get relics for alt classes as well too.

regarding atma: I never had an issue with completing that but seeing that its only a visual upgrade and no stat increase whatsoever, they should just remove the rng and just let people complete it by doign 1 fate in each mentioned area. . simple questline for a simple "upgrade".

Why do they have to make it easier? Doesn't that go against the entire concept of a relic weapon in the first place? You don't have to use a relic. There are plenty of alternative weapons to choose from.

Besides, the increased tome rates already serve to make it easier.

Just have ATMA drops without wielding a zenith. Lots of alts to level through fates.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

Animus might need some change to make it quicker.

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To Animus future 'nerfs', they could allow players to buy as many books that they want. Targets & dungeons/fates overlap allowing fewer trips and a shorter overall process.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Why do they have to make it easier? Doesn't that go against the entire concept of a relic weapon in the first place? You don't have to use a relic. There are plenty of alternative weapons to choose from.

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Expecting 3.0 era players to have to go through the same grind that players currently doing all this had to go through is insane, especially when shortcuts already exist - after long enough they should exist for the older parts of the relic too so long as the 3.0 equivalents remain similar to what exists now. The idea isn't to make it easier, but rather to allow new players a method by which to catch-up. Otherwise you're effectively going to lock them behind the grind.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Expecting 3.0 era players to have to go through the same grind that players currently doing all this had to go through is insane, especially when shortcuts already exist - after long enough they should exist for the older parts of the relic too so long as the 3.0 equivalents remain similar to what exists now. The idea isn't to make it easier, but rather to allow new players a method by which to catch-up. Otherwise you're effectively going to lock them behind the grind.

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Why do they need to be able to catch up right away? It's not like it's impossible for them to build up their relic. I don't see why being a new player entitles them to have quick access to what is supposed to be a legendary weapon. New players don't need relic weapons. Nobody actually needs relic weapons. There are plenty of alternative weapons in the game at this point.

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Originally Posted by Maero

3+ months for all 12 atma for me.

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Were you even trying? Or can you only play for 10 minutes a day? The drop rate isn't that bad.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Why do they need to be able to catch up right away? It's not like it's impossible for them to build up their relic. I don't see why being a new player entitles them to have quick access to what is supposed to be a legendary weapon. New players don't need relic weapons. Nobody actually needs relic weapons. There are plenty of alternative weapons in the game at this point.

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3.0 is a whole new expansion, with totally new contents and progression awaiting for legacy (which is us, who played ARR/2.0) and new players alike.

I see your join date is 2011 and your post is totally amusing. Did you not notice the difference between A Relic Reborn in 1.22 vs 2.0? Players not needed Relic weapon? In patch 2.0 at launch, Relic is the ONLY weapon to go for. You are talking too much about existing options in ARR's time frame which will no longer be relevant in 3.0 contents.

Expect yourself that the final form of the relic weapon will be your entry weapon into 3.0's end game raid.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Were you even trying? Or can you only play for 10 minutes a day? The drop rate isn't that bad.

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You'd be surprised. It took me 9 hours at the worst for a single atma piece. It took a friend 18 hours just for one to drop for him. The randomness and very low odds (I've heard it's 1%) make it a real RNG based thing. It may seem improbable, but it can happen, just like those 2 runs of Ramuh HM in a row I did as a BLM, where I had 0 Thundercloud procs for those runs (despite throwing Thunder on everytime it went off).

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You'd be surprised. It took me 9 hours at the worst for a single atma piece. It took a friend 18 hours just for one to drop for him. The randomness and very low odds (I've heard it's 1%) make it a real RNG based thing. It may seem improbable, but it can happen, just like those 2 runs of Ramuh HM in a row I did as a BLM, where I had 0 Thundercloud procs for those runs (despite throwing Thunder on everytime it went off).

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18 hours is problematic, yes. But 3 months implies they didn't try very hard and RNG got the best of them..for those months. 3 months at 2 hours a day is plausible. But if you're doing it that infrequently, then it works as intended.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

3.0 is a whole new expansion, with totally new contents and progression awaiting for legacy (which is us, who played ARR/2.0) and new players alike.

I see your join date is 2011 and your post is totally amusing. Did you not notice the difference between A Relic Reborn in 1.22 vs 2.0? Players not needed Relic weapon? In patch 2.0 at launch, Relic is the ONLY weapon to go for. You are talking too much about existing options in ARR's time frame which will no longer be relevant in 3.0 contents.

Expect yourself that the final form of the relic weapon will be your entry weapon into 3.0's end game raid.

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There's a huge difference between going from the 1.X version to the 2.X version, because they're nearly entirely different games. An expansion will not be an entirely different game. Please give me a reason why newer players deserve a free pass to a highly powered relic weapon when items of equivalent item level are also available?

My advice with regards to relic weapons is, get the one that you like the most and use it for glamours for the easier to obtain weapons that come with dungeons and fights. Animus Sphairai for me will be used to cover up unweathered gear for now.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

3.0 is a whole new expansion, with totally new contents and progression awaiting for legacy (which is us, who played ARR/2.0) and new players alike.

I see your join date is 2011 and your post is totally amusing. Did you not notice the difference between A Relic Reborn in 1.22 vs 2.0? Players not needed Relic weapon? In patch 2.0 at launch, Relic is the ONLY weapon to go for. You are talking too much about existing options in ARR's time frame which will no longer be relevant in 3.0 contents.

Expect yourself that the final form of the relic weapon will be your entry weapon into 3.0's end game raid.

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It's probably unfair to compare the jump from 1.x to 2.0 to the transition from 2.x to 3.0, about which we don't know anything yet. So far with 2.x series they've shown they're gonna offer alternatives at all times. A lengthy, tedious questline should not be a pass into the next tier of raiding, because well... Look how that worked out for Wildstar.

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Originally Posted by Amused

There's a huge difference between going from the 1.X version to the 2.X version, because they're nearly entirely different games. An expansion will not be an entirely different game. Please give me a reason why newer players deserve a free pass to a highly powered relic weapon when items of equivalent item level are also available?

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There is undoubtedly a difference of course but you fail to look at the bigger picture. The whole of the Saga of the Zodiac Weapons is a 2.2-2.59999999999 time frame thing. Do you seriously think the developers will port this whole thing over and want their new customers on the expansion to go through all these things at status quo?

I'm sorry but I am certain they won't. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't make business sense. You released an expansion with lots of new things and contents and you want your new customers to get on hand and enjoy it right a launch with existing player base. The relic will be the starting end game weapon for both legacy and new players alike most likely, and the method to obtain it will be a much more condensed path just like how 1.22 A Relic Reborn was condensed into 2.0's version.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

There is undoubtedly a difference of course but you fail to look at the bigger picture. The whole of the Saga of the Zodiac Weapons is a 2.2-2.59999999999 time frame thing. Do you seriously think the developers will port this whole thing over and want their new customers on the expansion to go through all these things at status quo?

I'm sorry but I am certain they won't. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't make business sense. You released an expansion with lots of new things and contents and you want your new customers to get on hand and enjoy it right a launch with existing player base. The relic will be the starting end game weapon for both legacy and new players alike most likely, and the method to obtain it will be a much more condensed path just like how 1.22 A Relic Reborn was condensed into 2.0's version.

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But here's the thing, they don't need the relic weapon, that's what my point was. When they hit the new level cap, assuming they raise it, there will be new weapons that will be as powerful or more powerful than a relic. It's optional content, meant to be a long term goal.

nerf atma ffs.

It does nothing but bother people. There is no "upgrade" to the item afterwards besides the next grindfest.

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

Mah dude... this post here... just gave me this feeling of relief and sudden encouragement to.. to finish my Bravura Animus. Thank you. Thank you very much. I mean it.

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The ones insisting you need IV materia are the ones selling them for 400-800k (depending on server) on the marketboard.

Don't listen to them XD

For example if you went with accuracy as the 3rd stat, you could use Noct circlet with crit/det instead of HA circlet of fending with Acc/Skill Speed.
http://xivdb.com/?item/7162/High-All...let-of-Fending
http://xivdb.com/?item/7294/Noct-Circlet

Which will give you, overall, more det and crit and still allow you to hit accuracy cap.

Going 25/25/25 will give you 43 crit 43 det 25 acc (with noct circlet) as opposed to 43 crit 32 det 25 acc maxing det and crit on relic. So, Cheaper and better XD

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Originally Posted by Amused

But here's the thing, they don't need the relic weapon, that's what my point was. When they hit the new level cap, assuming they raise it, there will be new weapons that will be as powerful or more powerful than a relic. It's optional content, meant to be a long term goal.

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nvm I'm just repeating myself lol.

I just don't want to touch on the word "need" again, it is a too long and tiring argument.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

nvm I'm just repeating myself lol.

I just don't want to touch on the word "need" again, it is a too long and tiring argument.

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Well, you haven't given me a reason why they need to have one, or any. I actually wanted you to convince me otherwise.

LOL It's not optional???

WAIT IT IS?
http://33.media.tumblr.com/3fa7270da...rxcho1_400.gif

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Thus - you are looking at aprox. 10 hours per book for a total of 90 hours for all of them. So even if they nerfed the animus step to where you could get the books for free...you're still in for a ridiculous amount of grind. For those complaining about atma - I highly highly doubt you have hit 90 hours (unless you're extremely extremely unlucky). Animus is bad. Where is the animus complaining?

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It's not entirely bad if SE make it so that some of the FATE's spawn within 15-60 minutes. Unlike Atma, Animus isn't purely based on RNG. Compared to Atma, getting your Animus feels (somewhat) rewarding. Atma? You're just damn well glad it's over and done with and never want to touch it again.

Killing the 100 monsters was fine. Doing the dungeons again was fine. The leves were okay, but the FATE's were honestly the "hardest" part about them. Because you never knew when they would pop and, if you've been waiting for an hour or so and need to go to the bathroom, you're too paranoid to leave for even a second because what if the FATE pops?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

18 hours is problematic, yes. But 3 months implies they didn't try very hard and RNG got the best of them..for those months. 3 months at 2 hours a day is plausible. But if you're doing it that infrequently, then it works as intended.

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You're calling 2 hours a day of ATMA farming for 3 months infrequent...?

Like you do realize that for a lot of people, that's all or a significant portion of their game time in a day.

Some of you all need to understand how statistics work. The concept of statistical outliers is a real thing...you know...

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Putting all the effort in for these weapons makes sense now because as of right now they are literally pushing at the boundaries of what we have access to in other content, but far down the line when things like Novus and Nexus are obsolete what will be the motivation to even bother with these steps for newer players? Not sure if SE has ever mentioned their plans in regards to this.

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And reasons like this is why I have always said that it will at some far far away later step be the best weapon in the game, and you will have to go through ALL those trials to get that best weapon in the game. And only those willing to put up with ALL those steps will have the "Relic Weapon" and it will be very powerful and more rare later in its life. But, don't forget, for a person to get a T17 Weapon or whatever they want to call it from the new end game will have to beat ALL those other coils just to get at the hardest raid in the game....

All high high high level weapons will be eventually super hard to get for newcomers and such. Lots and Lots of content to defeat and rise up to.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Well, you haven't given me a reason why they need to have one, or any. I actually wanted you to convince me otherwise.

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I don't need to give you a reason nor convince you, because it doesn't affect how you would play. This is mostly a design and business decision which apparently, you do not see the reasoning as those SE dudes over there. It isn't really about need, per se.

It could be as simple as, why would you and your team need to be IL100 and higher when BG cleared coil in IL100 or less average. Maybe SE should add a zero to all Soldiery gear and change coil 2 to only drop 1 piece of gear per turn, since it is statistically proven by BG that it isn't needed?

Need itself is a subjective term as individuals have different needs. Relic itself comes with a lore that is linked to the respective jobs. It is a non-coil weapon which means it is the most open weapon that isn't gated behind a specific clearance requirement.

If you see it from here, you will see why Relic will remain to have the accessibility to obtain them. Statistically needed or not, it does not matter - it is not a raid reward weapon like the current Allagans and thus it will remain accessible. If anyone wants to obtain it for any reason, it will be reasonably obtainable.

I wonder if you have actually played the FFXIII trinity (just using this game as an example, it could be any game with a sequel). Making players to go through the full Zodiac quest to obtain it in 3.0 is like, you're that excited fan boy who purchased the last installment - Lightning Returns (but you didn't play FFXIII and FFXIII-2) and you saw this beautiful gear that you really wanted to get it then you realized, dafaq, I need to clear FFXIII and FFXIII-2 so that I have the game clear trophy registered in my PS3 for Lightning Returns game to detect and the quest to obtain that weapon will be unlocked. It is certainly not a very great feeling for the customer.

Relic was never meant to be the most accessible weapon. That's what dungeon and tome gear is for. That is the accessible gear. Anything outside of that requires commitment.

Also, while I have not played any of the FFXIII games, that comparison is apples and oranges, and if you were going to use that analogy you would also be implying that 2.0 and 3.0 players deserve to get things like the Horn of Dalamud, or White Ravens from 1.0, just because 'they really wanted to get it'. You can't always get what you want.

My personal opinion is that way too much dev effort is placed on Relics for how homogenous they are with other weapons. I can get my Nexus weap for 100+ hours of atma/myth/book/alex grind, or I can cap sol 3 times and do ST once. I understand that 6 months ago it might have been a little more worth it to get to Animus, but at the same time, I could get an i95 weap from LeviX and I'd do like 95% as much DPS as someone with Animus.

The returns are NOT worth the time put in. Other games that have items similar to Relics usually offered something unique about the weapon that would make it worth the grind even if the stats wouldn't always be relevant. A "clickie" effect (assign the item to a hot bar) that would increase your damage for a bit, or rez someone for no mana once every 10 minutes, or what have you. Then the ridiculously long quests are worth the advantage that you get from it.

I know that they are saying they don't want to reward people that can put in huge hours to get the weapons by giving them major advantages over players who can't. That's fine. All I'm saying is that I think I have like 2 books done on an Animus and I don't think I'll ever go further. It's way too easy to get something comparable for 1/10th of the work. If they gave my PLD a clickie that increased by MND by 700% for 15 seconds that I could use every 30 minutes I'd be all over that ish. Poppin' Cures on the MT or myself in dire straights.

Based on the way things have been going with this game, when the expansion is released they will likely end the current relic chain and replace it with another <Insert cool name here> weapon quest. The starter weapon for this new quest will likely be much better than the final version of the relic, making all work put into the current relic line completely worthless.

I'm not sure what exactly they might do with it, but I have a feeling that they won't let the weapons 'die' after putting so much into them. What I imagine will happen is they'll continue to evolve while another similar weapon quest is started to coincide with 3.0 This way people invested in the zodiac line keep moving forward with it, while people just starting out and completely intimidated by the length of the quest have the option of doing something similar, but with the starting point actually being relevant.

I'm thinking something like this and/ or a major overhaul to the entire zodiac quest up to the point of 3.0 to seriously truncate the whole process.

I wager all the relic weapons will eventually transcend their current form when the zodiac trials are done... Leaving us with a newer relic. Potentially famous ones, such as Exalibur and Gungnir among others... Who knows.

I would assume you keep upgrading them to the new level cap like how they did in FFXI. Relics in FFXI started at 75, but then when the level cap got raised they went from 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 99, and finally ilvl 119

I believe they should allow relic to be upgraded in two ways.

1) the way we have now, casually
2) through our trials and tribulations in end-game raids

I figure 2 would work somewhat like how some players want a token system for Coil to reduce the amount of RNG. For example, you have Novus. It takes 2,000 lights to upgrade to Nexus. Instead of defeating Second Coil Turn 4 only giving 6 lights, it gives 200.

The other idea is to simply make raid enhanced relic stronger than none. But I think that contradicts Naoki's design philosophy about the relic weapon. (I'd still want it though).