Miqo'te Male/Female Relations and Views on Marriage

I've noticed alot more male seeker npcs (excluding the important ones I've seen random one at wolves den, a calamity salvager, one @ rogues guild, etc) so it seems like seeker males atleast branch out of their tribes to either be adventurers or city dwellers, perhaps partially not being strong enough to be a Nunh or just out learning skills/strength for the tribe.

As for keepers I can count 3: Couerl King, a nameless member of the Crytal braves (seen in 2.4 story quest) and then one @ the beast tribe quest. Still, these keepers seem more like outliers.

Well the delivery moogle quest was a nice treasure trove for seeker lore!

Seems like monagamy is not practiced much -if at all- amongst traditional seekers. They remind me of elephant's social structure.

From my understanding one difference is seeker tribes are smaller and more nomadic. So it's probably much more common for them to get married individually. I know among a lot of the RP player base the seekers, specifically the A tribe have quite a lot of inbreeding to keep the tribe pure and because they have SO many there are a lot of mates to choose from/ I find it a lot easier to get into the whole marriage mindset playing a keeper, but I'll turn my inner RPer off now ;)

For those who haven't seen the new Coeurlclaw delivery quest "The Past is a Story We Never Tell" (and don't plan to), here's some spoilers for it, related to the topic of this thread:

Keeper Mauh Lihzeh, whose sister Urha Lihzeh is a member of the Coeurlclaws, expresses distress at the unnatural way the Coeurl King stays in one place, luring Keeper women away from their families and forming an enormous and unnatural "family" with himself as lord and master. She explains that the proper behavior of a Keeper male is that of a wanderer, traveling the world and only dallying briefly with the women he meets during his travels.

Among Keepers, for a male to settle down with a single woman, or for a woman to settle down with a single man is unusual, possibly even perverse and socially offensive. Mauh is clearly very upset by the notion - but then, given that her sister is one of the women in the King's thrall, she may not be the most level-headed or open-minded on the topic...

At any rate, it looks as though Keeper males can barely be considered part of the family unit at all. The term "glorified sperm donor" comes to mind. Maybe not even all that glorified... It's pretty much an entire race populated by one-night stands.

How I play it:

Keepers have small extended families. Several mature females, one or more males, exogamy practiced, probably to keep inbreeding away. In a recent post moogle quest a Keeper thinks that her Couerlclaw sister mating with one male, the Couerlclaw king, is unnatural.

Keeper adventures, male or female, are likely to shed extended family bonds.

Seeker tribes may have an alpha female. She is at the top of the sisterhood of the tribe, not necessarily the nunh's favorite or wife. If married to the nunh, she will expect him to sow his seed among her tribe sisters, even selecting promising matches.

Seeker adventures maintain tribal links. Seeker tias wish to become wise & strong enough to challenge nunhs or form their own tribe. Dominant seeker females test themselves to see if they are worthy of being alpha, keeping an eye out for unattached nunhs and promising tias. Beta seeker females are no less fierce, nor lesser hunters. They simply lack the desire to lead.

Darnit 1k character limit.

My RPing Seeker alt, W'chan Nanya of Jenova. will marry her nunh on Sat. Jan 3, time TBA. If any would like to attend, even making a Jenova alt to do so, seek her or W'bhen Nunh out and ask for an invite.

It would be wise to start a character who is just going to attend the ceremony in Gridania.

Eh, I think this is only partly true. I don't think it was the act of a male settling down that's unnatural. I think what disturbed her was the fact that a male was the head of a household (harem), which is essentially Keeper culture. Seekers and Keepers value completely different cultures, and would easily find the opposite extremely offensive. We do know that some Keeper males do settle down (there's a quest in South Shroud that explained how multiple females can have a "breeding male) so it's not unusual. If the delivery quest did anything, it was to confirm our fears that males are second-class citizens (sorry RPers, time to modify those characters). Most probably become "wanderers" simply because they have limited options for stability in life. They are only needed for sex, and have no other value. Even the ones that do settle down are probably under full control of the women and once their usefulness has ended they are sent on their merry way.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Seekers and Keepers value completely different cultures, and would easily find the opposite extremely offensive.

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I also think this is more likely the case.

Even the naming conventions alone support this. Keepers take names after mothers:
son (mother's forename + how manieth son they are)/daughter + mother's surname.
While Seekers take their surnames after fathers: daughter of nunh's forename.

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Originally Posted by Velox

They are only needed for sex, and have no other value. Even the ones that do settle down are probably under full control of the women and once their usefulness has ended they are sent on their merry way.

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A sad life...

"What's that, you're pregnate? Awww Ok, I guess I'll go be some other chicks' sex-slave now. Poor me..."

Please. Keeper men have it made.

I almost feel bad for the Coeurl King, he never learned that you can't lay it down your very best every time. He's obviously got some skill, but now he's stuck with them all.

Yeah...I'll keep to the road, tyvm.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

A sad life...

"What's that, you're pregnate? Awww Ok, I guess I'll go be some other chicks' sex-slave now. Poor me..."

Please. Keeper men have it made.

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I feel like just maybe this is the opinion of somebody who has never been used for sex before.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

I feel like just maybe this is the opinion of somebody who has never been used for sex before.

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Maybe, but perhaps I have been and was never the wiser or maybe I saw through it and didn't care. Everyone's experiences and feelings on those experiences differ.

If it wasn't obvious, that entire post was over-exaggerated, facetious and sarcastic. If it can't be taken as such, I'll rework or delete the post to avoid the oncoming PC debate.


Otherwise, to continue the discussion; My Keeper prefers traveling the world, learning, experiencing new things and getting to know new women along the way. It may be that his interests happen to align with the females of his race or that he chose this life because of the innate instability within his tribe, maybe a little of both. Either way, he's happy with himself and the life he leads, and that's all that matters.

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Originally Posted by Velox

If the delivery quest did anything, it was to confirm our fears that males are second-class citizens (sorry RPers, time to modify those characters). Most probably become "wanderers" simply because they have limited options for stability in life. They are only needed for sex, and have no other value. Even the ones that do settle down are probably under full control of the women and once their usefulness has ended they are sent on their merry way.

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I think her view of Keeper males may have also been influenced by her being a Gridanian as well as a Keeper. Among Keepers living outside Gridania I'd expect males have an important role as messengers, merchants, news-carriers, diplomats, general go-betweens, etc., basically any function that can be usefully filled by someone who'll always be moving from tribe to tribe. In Gridania that's all rolled-up into general city infrastructure so there's jack-all for traditionally-minded male Keepers to do.

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Originally Posted by Shadygrove

Seeker adventures maintain tribal links. Seeker tias wish to become wise & strong enough to challenge nunhs or form their own tribe. Dominant seeker females test themselves to see if they are worthy of being alpha, keeping an eye out for unattached nunhs and promising tias. Beta seeker females are no less fierce, nor lesser hunters. They simply lack the desire to lead.

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I like this. It explains so well why my tiny little lady would don heavy armor and take point, throwing herself into harm's way time and time again despite being, to put it mildly, physically unimposing (she's the minimum height). In fact, perhaps even more so because of that. She has something to prove, be it to herself or her tribe. It's a lot easier to imagine the motivation for male Seekers to wander, but this is a great way to see it for females. ^^

I think once a male seeker comes of age they are "ecouraged" to move out and explore the world. It seems like females don't really like the extended stay of a visiting male.

By forcing them out they have to be self reliant and provide for themselves. In order to be welcomed into the family territory the males must bring them something they hunted and killed. Thus proving that they were strong enough to live on their own and I'm sure attracting mates as well.

But I do agree, that a meek/weak seeker male will be looked down upon by both sexes and if they can't survive in the wilds then that's one way to weedout the weak.

I never read this before about them? Mithra is FF11 were like this, the males you never seen and women only playable. The males were only for sleeping with and nothing else. I doubt they would be playable if they were the same as the FF11 males.

But due to their increased intermingling with other races due to their forced exiles from the Garlean invasions aren't some of them naturally going to change in their beliefs and lifestyle due to intergration? Like the moon cats in the Shroud do not intermingle and tus keep to "traditional ways" same with cats in south Than. But their are those who co-exist in the cities which are open to "contamination" for want of a better term of their traditional lifestyle,

So attitudes can change from the more traditional view in regards to relationships. Dueto the above reasoning.

Given everything, the lore suggests their society is reflective to that of lions. One Alpha male and a whole lot of females that do all the work. That explains why so many males are loners or require several devoted females to start a new group. Unfortunately we all have the physical appearance to that of domestic cats instead. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

Given everything, the lore suggests their society is reflective to that of lions. One Alpha male and a whole lot of females that do all the work. That explains why so many males are loners or require several devoted females to start a new group. Unfortunately we all have the physical appearance to that of domestic cats instead. :mad:

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You just hit the nail on the head, Kotemon. I was thinking about Sun Seeker tribe structure one night while trying to get to sleep, and I suddenly realized Seeker miqo'te tribes are just like lion prides. One or two alpha males, with a ton of females who do the work. I find that fascinating, and it gives me something to work on with my miqo'te rp-wise.

From what's revealed sofar

Seekers resemble the social structure of Lions

Keepers resemble the social structure of Elephants

It seems like despite the way traditional Miqo'te's behave with mates, the majority of them in Eorzea have abandoned that idea and follow the culture of the city they're in. They may have been born of it, but don't necessarily follow it. Individual little tribes seem to follow that trend, but none of the Miqo'te NPCs in any of the grand states seem to behave that way.

Forgotten Springs is full of female hunters and one Miqo'te male, and the Couerlclaw in Gridania are all exclusively female. Can't think of many others but they seem like the minority.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

Given everything, the lore suggests their society is reflective to that of lions. One Alpha male and a whole lot of females that do all the work. That explains why so many males are loners or require several devoted females to start a new group. Unfortunately we all have the physical appearance to that of domestic cats instead. :mad:

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Well, from what I understand, the social structure of feral cat colonies is fairly similar to that of lion prides. Females remain in familial groups while the males wander to join different groups (including the same sort of fights between males for the chance to join those groups, and then to keep others from doing so and taking it from them). The similarity breaks down a bit in urban areas where the size of a colony may grow well beyond that of a pride, but that's a function of population and food supply levels more than the innate preferences of either cats or lions.

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Originally Posted by Neyasa

I never read this before about them? Mithra is FF11 were like this, the males you never seen and women only playable. The males were only for sleeping with and nothing else. I doubt they would be playable if they were the same as the FF11 males.

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The males were few in number, guarded, and protected

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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Forgotten Springs is full of female hunters and one Miqo'te male, and the Couerlclaw in Gridania are all exclusively female. Can't think of many others but they seem like the minority.

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There are two tias in forgotten springs also.

The structure of the Courelclaws is aberrant. This is made clear in a post moogle quest.

I'd like to point out that the couple from unlocking Wanderer's Palace HM, the Miqo'te was a Keeper male; you could tell by his eyes.
Sort of interesting.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I'd like to point out that the couple from unlocking Wanderer's Palace HM, the Miqo'te was a Keeper male; you could tell by his eyes.
Sort of interesting.

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And the rest of his posture and body language, though I will admit I checked double to be certain. I simply did not expect an openly gay couple.

Judging by their dialogue, the two are very happy together despite being chased away from their villages and being somewhat shunned in general. There are other interrace couples, though Ferne has mention it is rather rare (link), so these two are probably facing a bit of prejudice from that + that their loved one has the same gender.

Regardless, they seem to happy together, which makes me happy. And it made the tonberry rescue mission even more adorable (except for the knife stabbing at the end, maybe).

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

And it made the tonberry rescue mission even more adorable (except for the knife stabbing at the end, maybe).

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What? That was one of the best parts of the entire dungeon! CUTE BUT DEADLY (the Tonberry MO)!

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Originally Posted by Nialle

What? That was one of the best parts of the entire dungeon! CUTE BUT DEADLY (the Tonberry MO)!

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I'm just not sure whether I would call it adorable. But it did make me laugh, especially my character's facial expression.

With the amount of crap the male seekers have done: destroying the XIVth tribunal, defeated every known primal (some more than once), and overall saving Eorzea thrice, we should all be nunhs by know you'd think.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

With the amount of crap the male seekers have done: destroying the XIVth tribunal, defeated every known primal (some more than once), and overall saving Eorzea thrice, we should all be nunhs by know you'd think.

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Adventurers should more or less be ruling over Eorzea by now DX sadly though you males will never be nuhns, and will forever remain nuns

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I'd like to point out that the couple from unlocking Wanderer's Palace HM, the Miqo'te was a Keeper male; you could tell by his eyes.
Sort of interesting.

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Considering how "rare" male Miqo'te are supposed to be, the idea of one being homosexual, especially among the "men are tools" Keepers... Makes you cry just thinking of what he must have been through.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Considering how "rare" male Miqo'te are supposed to be, the idea of one being homosexual, especially among the "men are tools" Keepers... Makes you cry just thinking of what he must have been through.

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Both of them seem to have taken a lot more critisism for being together with someone of a different race, than for being together with someone of the same gender.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Both of them seem to have taken a lot more critisism for being together with someone of a different race, than for being together with someone of the same gender.

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While I think you're right on that as far as the quest dialogue, I'm pretty sure either would be a big issue to a culture that treats its males as sperm banks with little more than serial numbers for names. (Why I will never play as a Keeper.) I'm still crying over the implications either way, but happy that they've found a new home together.

I think the comparing of Seeker tribes to lions or feral cats is a comparison you need to be careful with. Being part of the societies we are we all tend to associate sex with power, and thus presume that the position of Nunh is a position of power. However that's not necessarily the case; as the naming convention post notes, being a Nunh does not equate to being the leader of a tribe. The Nunh (because remember, most tribes have more than one) may be the strongest and most accomplished members of their tribe, but not necessarily the most intelligent, cunning, or capable of making difficult political decisions. It's entirely likely that tribes exist where the Nunh are beholden to the authority of a ruling Tia or female.

Another issue with the lion pride comparison is the "alpha males rule, females work" issue. The Nunh are not alpha males. The women of the tribe are not beholden to them and do not serve them; if anything the Nunh are beholden to the women. What happens when a Nunh really dislikes a particular woman, but she decides she wants to start having children and demands he give her what she needs for that? In all likelihood, his feelings will be disregarded and he will be forced to perform his duty.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

as the naming convention post notes, being a Nunh does not equate to being the leader of a tribe. The Nunh (because remember, most tribes have more than one) may be the strongest and most accomplished members of their tribe, but not necessarily the most intelligent, cunning, or capable of making difficult political decisions. It's entirely likely that tribes exist where the Nunh are beholden to the authority of a ruling Tia or female.

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While we know that being a Nunh doesn't necessarily come with a leadership position, it apparently gives them a leg up on trying for one. Among the U tribe members we meet, the two Tias who are vying for the Nunh position are doing so with political agendas in mind.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Another issue with the lion pride comparison is the "alpha males rule, females work" issue. The Nunh are not alpha males. The women of the tribe are not beholden to them and do not serve them; if anything the Nunh are beholden to the women.

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Well, that comparison wouldn't match lion prides either. Lion prides are primarily matriarchal. The alpha male will drive off other males, but it's usually the alpha female who rules the pride (or as nearly as any of them do). What's more, she'll have her leadership position for life, and then pass it to the most charismatic of her sisters or daughters, whereas males come and go, maintaining their alpha status only until a stronger unrelated male comes along.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

While we know that being a Nunh doesn't necessarily come with a leadership position, it apparently gives them a leg up on trying for one.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-Conventions

This post explicitly states that Nunh becoming leaders is very uncommon. The U tribe is something that's always annoyed me, since it's the only representation of a Seeker tribe in game and it contradicts the lore SE has put forward outside the game.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

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Alpha does not = lord and commander.

In the example of wolf packs it means the breeding pair. In seeker tribes the nunh(s) are the breeding males and therefore alpha.

There will be an alpha female too, and in most cases she runs the tribe. I have a post a few pages back about this.

As to the U tribe, their nunh IS exceptionally wise and patient, therefore he is among the rare exceptions.

I do hope we get to meet another seeker tribe someday.

In the field of ethology, the most common definitions for "alpha" specify that the alpha exists at the highest point of the hierarchy within its group. There can be an alpha pair that shares this position, but in almost all cases it does in fact mean that any animal designated alpha is in charge and on top.

Even if they are "on top" that does not necessarily mean that they lead. They warrant the most respect and their word is followed, but they could prefer to take a backseat position or leave someone else to the role, think about the actual guildmaster of the Arcanist guild. He's considered tops, but the Roegadyn actually runs things.

Right, but she does so only under the authority and delegation of the guildmaster. The position of Nunh does not inherently possess this authority. That's not to say Nunh are unable to be given authority, but their position as chief breeders of the clan is not where they derive it from.

I seem to recall that the nunh of the U tribe has some authority, however there are also females in the tribe that generally appear to dislike him from comments you get approaching them, my guess is that yes the nunh has /some/ influence, but the main role of males appears to be raising the young children/hunters of the tribe.

As far as keepers go I sort of doubt that they care what their breeding males preferences are as long as it doesn't hinder breeding too much, its not like there has to be an emotional connection (though that doesn't mean its impossible for keepers to fall in love obviously)

I can however see how it would aggravate miqo'te in general to fall for someone outside the tribe or their own kind because that means one less breeding male in an already small group

The fact that races stick with their own would affect Keepers and Duskwights the most due to the isolated nature of their cultures (least amount of contact with world). We also know that men are really nothing more than breeders in Keeper culture, as evidenced by*quests and leves. Any male looking for a monogamous relationship would be forced to leave the traditional way of life to seek it. However, this would easily piss off the rest of the clan because he would be violating the natural order. Females rely on males to keep the bloodlines going, so they are necessary to have around. With males already being rarer to begin with, it would really hurt the clan's chances of survival if they left. But males must KNOW they are really nothing more than glorified sperm banks on legs, why wouldn't they all just leave in the end? My guess is that they know if they leave, they would be dooming their race into oblivion,*so they just accept their fate for the greater good of the clan.