Stop Raising Item Level and build foundation with Horizontal Progression first

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Or an "Ultimate WHM melee build" - sure, no one would use a melee WHM in a serious event, but that sure didn't stop people from hunting Shen, now did it?

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~COUGHS~ They let me >.>;... Near the end of my XI career.

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On topic: I have nothing to add, carry on ^^;

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Originally Posted by Arkine

I'd personally love to see less of the current 4 stats on gear formula.

Maybe add unique gear with special stats like instead of:

20STR/20VIT/15ACC/15S.Speed

We'll see something like:

-20STR/+40VIT/15ACC/15S.Speed.

Or new stats all together like Enmity, Damage taken -/+, or straight up skill specific gear like "Enhanced Bersek"

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That honestly sounds over complicated/something no one would use once the novelty wears off.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

I'd personally love to see less of the current 4 stats on gear formula.

Maybe add unique gear with special stats like instead of:

20STR/20VIT/15ACC/15S.Speed

We'll see something like:

-20STR/+40VIT/15ACC/15S.Speed.

Or new stats all together like Enmity, Damage taken -/+, or straight up skill specific gear like "Enhanced Bersek"

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FFXI is that way. --->

I'm all for horizontal progression (it's the only true "system". Vertical progression is just glamour with numbers) but, to work in FFXIV, it would ask more than just adding new bonus types to equipments.

The jobs "system" (again, it's not a "system" in its current form. It's just glorified fan service) would need a lot of rework. A good equipment system is complementary to a good progression system.

Then, the battles design would need to change too. Horizontal progression allows players to come up with their own solution to win battles. FFXIV doesnt work like this : to win, we only need to guess the developpers' shenanigans.

That would also require interesting stats, though.

Righ now it would be pretty useless though, as most job only get 1 decent secondary stat.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

FFXI is that way. --->

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XI did a lot of things right, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to see things implemented from a successful* game. No one is asking for a XI clone.

*This point will obviously be debated, but XI has stood the test of time, and is still going strong, eleven years later.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Gear needed for Ilvl requirements is accesible by everyone. Which is one reason it's more succesful than FFXI.

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Having 2 million players for 9 months (FXIV) versus having 500,000+ players for 10 years (FXI).

Not too sure which one you would call more successful than the other, so you might want to tap the breaks a little bit with that assessment.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

FFXI is that way. --->*FFXIV*<----and wow is this way

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by AzakaTonnerre

Having 2 million players for 9 months (FXIV) versus having 500,000+ players for 10 years (FXI).

Not too sure which one you would call more successful than the other, so you might want to tap the breaks a little bit with that assessment.

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One being released in the early 2000s when MMOs weren't exactly "mainstream" let alone most people were still on dial-up and the other after WoW bringing MMOs into mainstream? The fact XI could retain it's population for a decade on it's "archaic system" as some say, with WoW being beside it, and it's graphics staying the same since 2002... I'd say it did pretty damn well.

Horizontal progression done right -> high development time -> less content successfully released on a regular basis.

Horizontal progress done wrong (rushed/un-balanced) -> BIS builds come out and large amount of content becomes ignored immediately, everyone picks and chooses their fights.

Horizontal progress done wrong (elemental resistance gimmick) -> Simply a handful of barriers/gear checks with no added benefit towards game play, basically what we already have.

Choose your poison...

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Originally Posted by Codek

Horizontal progression done right -> high development time -> less content successfully released on a regular basis.

Horizontal progress done wrong (rushed/un-balanced) -> BIS builds come out and large amount of content becomes ignored immediately, everyone picks and chooses their fights.

Horizontal progress done wrong (elemental resistance gimmick) -> Simply a handful of barriers/gear checks with no added benefit towards game play, basically what we already have.

Choose your poison...

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Personally, I'd go for option #1. This game needs something to give it depth. Armor variety would only scratch the surface, but every little bit helps :)

f

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Originally Posted by chrillix

Couldn't agree more. I don' think I've seen content go obsolete as fast as I have in FFXIV in any other game I've played. The other problem is "new content" being useless at release. We seriously don't need any more level 50 dungeons with i70-i80 gear. ST should have been released before SCOB, or at least at the same time.

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Yes to all of the above.

"Hey guys this content we spend months developing? Lets get rid of it in 3 or 6 months sound good?" /praises all around.

And the fact that new dungeons are being released that are STILL below the ilvl of the 1st dungeon gear in the game... Lol?

At this point in the game we should be seeing something like.

ilvl 70 = 50 dungeon gear
ilvl 80 = CT1 gear
ilvl 90 = CT2 gear
ilvl 100 = Coil 1 gear
ilvl 110 = Coil 2 gear

With primals scattered throughout the 70-100 range.

It's a little funny to see everyone nodding sagely while suggesting an MMO uproot it's current system and completely replace it.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

XI did a lot of things right, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to see things implemented from a successful* game. No one is asking for a XI clone.

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So? WoW was also successful and people scream bloody murder when anything from that game gets implemented. Double Standard much?

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Originally Posted by Codek

Horizontal progression done right -> high development time -> less content successfully released on a regular basis.

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You at like that's a bad thing. The longer the content gap is the more relevant the current content becomes

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Originally Posted by Worm

It's a little funny to see everyone nodding sagely while suggesting an MMO uproot it's current system and completely replace it.

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Maybe it's because sages are wise. After all SE already uprooted and replaced XIV's system and look how well that turned out :p

>More gear sets
>Has to be rng chance to drop
>People already hate atma
>Atma reborn in the form of gear

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Maybe it's because sages are wise. After all SE already uprooted and replaced XIV's system and look how well that turned out :p

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Would be a good point if current XIV was failing as hard as 1.0 was. But it isn't. So don't try to change everything in case the rework fails just as badly as 1.0. Slow and steady changes, for better or worse. Hopefully not the latter.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

So? WoW was also successful and people scream bloody murder when anything from that game gets implemented. Double Standard much?

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Successful=/= doing things right. CoD is a successful series, doesn't mean it's very good.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

So? WoW was also successful and people scream bloody murder when anything from that game gets implemented. Double Standard much?

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While your not wrong. The reason is because WoW has systematically destroyed MMOs for the past 10 years or so by pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Also WoW's "success" can more be attributed to its successful marketing and being the "gateway" MMO (like gateway drug) and releasing rigt when parents started trusting the internet enough to let their kids use their credit cards to play an online game.

Their retention rate is terrible on all levels of play but everyone who plays MMOs has likely tried it at least once. Not a bad money making model but it is quickly ruining the genre. The same way graphical advancements in general have hurt console games more than they have helped (remember when console games took 50+ hours to finish? Now most games are more like 10)

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

You at like that's a bad thing. The longer the content gap is the more relevant the current content becomes

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It's a trade off that I view as a bad thing only because I'm a long term player. The plus side is that new players joining the game will have a huge variety of tasks that they can complete, all of which is still relevant towards growing their character. The down side is that new content will come in at a much slower pace. Any player that has been playing for a long period of time and is staying up to date with the latest pieces will now have to wait much longer for something new to do. This can cause a lot of issues with retaining players for the long term.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

While your not wrong. The reason is because WoW has systematically destroyed MMOs for the past 10 years or so by pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Also WoW's "success" can more be attributed to its successful marketing and being the "gateway" MMO (like gateway drug) and releasing rigt when parents started trusting the internet enough to let their kids use their credit cards to play an online game.

Their retention rate is terrible on all levels of play but everyone who plays MMOs has likely tried it at least once. Not a bad money making model but it is quickly ruining the genre. The same way graphical advancements in general have hurt console games more than they have helped (remember when console games took 50+ hours to finish? Now most games are more like 10)

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It is already happening here. There are very few people I used to raid with logging on anymore. The continued success of the game comes from the release of the ps4 version. The developers are awesome guys and gals who do listen to feedback (the constructive stuff and not the rants, which I'm sometimes guilty of), but they probably wouldn't have added atma and hunts if the usual formula was accomplishing the goal to retain end game players.

Seems like a complaint from people who just can't keep up with the new content thus falling behind in ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

While your not wrong. The reason is because WoW has systematically destroyed MMOs for the past 10 years or so by pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Also WoW's "success" can more be attributed to its successful marketing and being the "gateway" MMO (like gateway drug) and releasing rigt when parents started trusting the internet enough to let their kids use their credit cards to play an online game.

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Their retention rate is fine. They have Patch-Hoppers the same as here, but this idea that somehow WoW ruined mmos when it practically DEFINED then and KEEPS INNOVATING is ridiculous. I get it - you hate WoW, anything to do with WoW and you think that Final Fantasy can do no wrong. However, I cringe whenever I see someone act like that game is somehow "easybake oven" compared to this one. Feel free to link your Heroic Garrosh kill or your Brawler's Guild achievements or even your Arena rating.

This is a good game - I play it and enjoy it - but WoW is a freaking hard one at high levels of gameplay. There are a lot of good lessons there that SE could learn. They have already implemented some of them to the playerbase's collective delight. Look around you at some of the systems you are just now getting to enjoy. 90%+ of them had already been thought up, tested, implemented, and bugfixed somewhere else.

I'd rather see my character continue to grow in strength than having 15 other item choices thrown at me that swap one stat for another.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

How will this fit in with FF14?

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How won't this fit in with FF14?

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

Seems like a complaint from people who just can't keep up with the new content thus falling behind in ilvl.

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Umm... wut?

The three new dungeons take a day to complete.
Syrcus Tower is 40m.
Second Coil takes the longest, but you just end up getting loot from one location, heck just 4 bosses.

The rest of the gear is gained from the same vendor who some how has Eorzeas supply of the only good loot besides High Allagan. This doesn't even scratch the problem that gear really has no interesting meaning besides ilvl and accuracy (the only meaningful stat).

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

As an old EQ player you should know better than this. Yes, while it's true content lasted longer in that game, it was by no means a horizontal progression. There were a myriad of cool items in EQ, however, that maintained a use years after it was released such as the Fungi Tunic or Cloak of Flames. Then you had all of the fluff right-click items that let you change your appearance (Inky mask, skeleton bracelet) or summon food and water, etc. There's really nothing like that in this game other than the minions which are more of a status symbol than anything else.

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Mmmm... Fungi Tunic is still used TODAY as a twink item and still sells for A LOT. CoF was used well into Luclin if not beyond, plus it was tradable so it was always worth a ton of pp. Items like the fungi tunic and the clicky masks were always hugely in demand, and kept old items relevant for years (literally...what...20 expansions later people are still camping the DE mask in Lower Guk).

The point is that the itemization is boring as HELL in this game. Nothing even gives the illusion that making choices on different pieces of similar iLVL gear matter a whole lot, besides accuracy for tanks and DPS.

Min/Maxing and theorycrafting blow-hards aside, crit/det/sksp/spsp is all whatever, it all absolutely pales in comparison to raw str/dex/mnd/int.

What we need is for accessories to no longer have primary stats on them, but instead an eclectic mix of secondary stats. Like Ifrit's Bangle of Striking or whatever would be +0str +5acc +60det, while Garuda's would be like +0str +10acc +10crit +10det +10sksp +3vit.

Something interesting, and MORE loot. Diablo it if you have to, randomize each base accessory with "Sparkling" Inferno Bangle of Fending that would be +0vit +25pry +2%HPregen +5pie, whereas the "Gleaming" Inferno Bangle of Fending would be +0vit +25pry +2%HPregen +5mnd. Then a 1% drop of "Fiery" Inferno Bangle that would be +20fire resist +15pry/crit/det/sksp/spsp/acc +3%HPregen +2vit/str/dex/mnd/pie/int.

Right now the only motivation I remotely have in terms of gearing is to increase my iLVL and keep my accur up for coil. Its not that I don't care about experimenting with different builds, its just that doing it is soooo boring that its tedius, there is no apparent specialization in items.

Then again...with this game only having 13 gear slots and the way it runs it might be too hard to implement this without making it too easy to exploit.

I dunno.../rant off. I have been playing P99 lately and it makes me miss the unique itemization...

ilvl = resume and application lol.
PF and DF will have a certain required "ilvl" to be able to be accepted into the party/ instance.
Then after getting in you are then assessed by ppl looking at your stats. High ilvl = brownie points as most ppl base their usefullness on ilvl.
Skill is left out of the equation as ppl assume you're either good or bad.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Their retention rate is fine. They have Patch-Hoppers the same as here, but this idea that somehow WoW ruined mmos when it practically DEFINED then and KEEPS INNOVATING is ridiculous. I get it - you hate WoW, anything to do with WoW and you think that Final Fantasy can do no wrong. However, I cringe whenever I see someone act like that game is somehow "easybake oven" compared to this one. Feel free to link your Heroic Garrosh kill or your Brawler's Guild achievements or even your Arena rating.

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Go search the wide world of WoW and find how many raiding guilds have been around from MC - Garrosh. Then see how many of the people in those raid teams have been around from MC - Garrosh.

Defined what? MMOs were around for LONG before that game came out and made pandering to the lowest common denominator mainstream. "They don't want to play a MULTIPLAYER game? Oh poor them lets let them solo their way right into raids!"


FFXIV can do no wrong? When did I say this? FFXIV 2.0 is making the same mistakes 90% of MMOs have done since WoW made money. And look at how many of those MMOs lasted more than a year or 2. Easybake oven? No WoW is an easybake oven. FFXIV is little debbies. Don't even have to plug in the easy bake oven to get your snacks.


Arena? Congratz they have a good pvp system? Did I say anything about their pvp? Actually as someone who played original I have said time and time again the one thing WoW did right was their pvp. The high end of the game wasn't bad at all really. Then BC hit and they gave in to every crying 12 year old on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

It is already happening here. There are very few people I used to raid with logging on anymore. The continued success of the game comes from the release of the ps4 version. The developers are awesome guys and gals who do listen to feedback (the constructive stuff and not the rants, which I'm sometimes guilty of), but they probably wouldn't have added atma and hunts if the usual formula was accomplishing the goal to retain end game players.

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Because although every serious MMO player has the common sense to know it.. Devs still haven't figured out that "give everyone everything in 20 hours or less!!!!" does not keep players playing.

Same here. The only people left who have been around since relaunch that I know are.... 2 people. And they are friends of mine from EQ. We have all raided together for years.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

Seems like a complaint from people who just can't keep up with the new content thus falling behind in ilvl.

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Either your being sarcastic or you play a different game. They THROW top end raid gear at you how is it even possible to fall behind unless you don't play.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Mmmm... Fungi Tunic is still used TODAY as a twink item and still sells for A LOT. CoF was used well into Luclin if not beyond, plus it was tradable so it was always worth a ton of pp. Items like the fungi tunic and the clicky masks were always hugely in demand, and kept old items relevant for years (literally...what...20 expansions later people are still camping the DE mask in Lower Guk).

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Truth.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Maybe it's because sages are wise. After all SE already uprooted and replaced XIV's system and look how well that turned out :p

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Yes you're all so smart and sagely you want A Realm Reborn Reborn. I'm sure the game could sustain that.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Items like the fungi tunic and the clicky masks were always hugely in demand, and kept old items relevant for years

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Well for the masks I think that's probably just as much the effects as the stats, that's a little like pointing to the Orb of Deception and stating that WoW too has gear people seek 9 years afterward. Definitely I'm not disagreeing with you EQ 1 had a ton of horizontal progression, but pointing to a Clicky and Twink Item as 20 expansions of horizontal progression falls a little short. Unless the Barbarian mask is still BiS for rogues or something.

The constant desire to argue horizontal progression as a no-thought required panacea to all that ails us is just really tiresome. As are the drawn out comparisons to older games that are still 'going strong' thanks to horizontal progression. I mean if there's such a great horizontal progression MMO market out there why not play those games you keep using as examples?

The real answer is just having an item level curve that isn't a total joke. In 2.0, the actual content variety wasn't great, but Philosophy took time to get which meant using all the i60 gear you found lying around as a stopgap was actually pretty useful for something. Now, Myth flows like water so all our 'stopgap' PvE gear and content is basically irrelevant except as their ability to be generators for soldiery tomes.

I actually like how the new dungeon roulette system works and the general breadth of stuff there is to actually do in 2.3 for i90-i100 progress (PvP, Roulettes, ST,) but too much stuff drops gear that's irrelevant on day of release (latest pack of Expert dungeons giving i80 when i90 is the standard,) and to much stuff hasn't been properly given 'legacy' status (while High-level dungeons give a decent packet of inflated myth, the rewards for the very difficult classic extreme primals and their i90 gear still aren't worth the time and skill investment, and the myth / hour for a Labyrinth of the Ancients queue much less doing the content itself is *atrocious*.)

The solution is to either make the next set of Myth items require a little bit of effort to get, OR to put whatever dungeons drop at the actual level of Myth items because i60/i80-style stopgaps just won't be that relevant any more if Myth keeps flowing like it does. And for the love of god, make legacied content actually somewhat time/myth efficient.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Yes you're all so smart and sagely you want A Realm Reborn Reborn. I'm sure the game could sustain that.

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You seem to know sarcasm but considering how you responded to may post i doubt you know what sarcasm is (Or that I wouldn't use smilies if the post was serious)

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Originally Posted by Fendred

(like atunement quests).

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Nope nope nope.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

You seem to know sarcasm but considering how you responded to may post i doubt you know what sarcasm is (Or that I wouldn't use smilies if the post was serious)

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Sorry, I honestly can't tell sometimes with the stuff I read on here. I'm sure somewhere someone is earnestly suggesting they take the game offline for retooling.

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Originally Posted by Magis

One being released in the early 2000s when MMOs weren't exactly "mainstream" let alone most people were still on dial-up and the other after WoW bringing MMOs into mainstream? The fact XI could retain it's population for a decade on it's "archaic system" as some say, with WoW being beside it, and it's graphics staying the same since 2002... I'd say it did pretty damn well.

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Except the "fact" that...it didn't. the 500,000+ numbers was a 1 year blip in I think 2006 (with both WoW and EQ1 still dwarfing it by orders of magnitude) and it has been steadily decreasing every year, it's now at less than 150k...

(I still run into people these days who are big fans of Final fantasy, even going so far as to own soundtracks and action figures from their favorite ones, that still wonder why XI was "never released in the US" and why SE kept the number for XII)

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Originally Posted by Baneus

How won't this fit in with FF14?

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https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...0a506a622d7999

You may benefit from this reading, especially #8.


On topic, While I'd love to see horizontal progression, it would not fit with FFXIV ARR, not until extension (and with a huge work on the system by then).

Mainly because of the progression during levelling.

Horizontal progression requires more freedom in the character build than what we have. Either a skill tree or more characteristic points per level to create a build. The gear would need to become secondary too, not providing the major part of our stats. Instead it would provide some bonuses, skill increase, set bonuses... things like that.

Difficult to do in ARR