Bards need a buff

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Originally Posted by Velox

I know, it's great isn't it? Nothing like a good bait thread to get people banned.

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Parsing. The real "member measuring" contest.

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Originally Posted by Akesis

They also have Atherial and can port to safety

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no they don't.
They teleport near a party member.
that doesn't always mean you get teleported to safety.

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Can deal damage on the move.

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LOLWUT.
srsly.
HEY LOOK I CAN CAST SCATHE WHILE I MOVE.
I'M UNSTOPPABLE.

Bard is the most reliable dps job.

If the flank or rear is inaccessible: Dragoon greatly suffers and Monk takes a significant hit.

If the boss frequently becomes invulnerable or leaves the arena: Monk greatly suffers.

If you have to move around constantly to avoid mechanics: Black Mage greatly suffers and Summoner takes a hit

No matter the situation, Bard can always maintain great dps. There's no encounter in the game that's bad for Bard.

Bards got nerfed in 2.1 for a reason, way too much in their kits. They are fine where they are at. If you want more damage go play a monk.

You don't need anymore dps buffs, as people have stated several times in this thread parties are currently made or broken by bards. you have a guaranteed party slot and are probably (no you are) the most demanded dps by a large margin.

1. - Bard typically top dps while people are making progression and learning this is a pretty big deal, they are the least hurt by unexpected mechanics

2. - Requiem improves peoples dps by a large margin in some cases up to 40-50, paeon is nice to have for 8, you have the utllity to kite in turn 7 much like summoner does. Ballad, much like summoner res is there for when "Shit happens" its very useful. Paeon's usefulness further increases when Selene is around

3. - comparing apocatastasis and shitty blm virus to your songs is laughable

4. Bards have access to to probably the largest burst in the game, my static bard can outburst me on plenty of occasions, and for the record my highest parse on t8 so far has been 496 on blm - I'm not exactly low damage, and BLM is really good at burst in order to outburst my bard I have to hit multiple fire 3 crits at over 3k apiece, let me remind you that's with him singing battle foe. This is due to how many cds you have access to and the crazy buff uptime you have.

4. bard silence is useful in a plethora of situations including turn 9.

5. You are a bard, not a ranger your lucky Square even gave you guys a bow. (sometimes i wish they hadn't then maybe bards would do what they were picked up for - songs.) Your job description is hybrid support/dps your job is the only job in the game that does this well, smn has the 2nd most utility and it doesnt even come close to bard utility.

6. Even with all your utility you still pump out very respectable dps. its not like your hindered by any mechanic in the game except things that hard disable like titan goals. I'm all for lowering the damage penalty on your songs but no, you dont need potency buffs so you can relive 2.0 bard again.

7. Bards by their mere presence make drg a lot more appealing due to disembowel. Monks do not have a dps buddy to debuff for.

8. Bards by their cooperative presence make smn and blm high/top tier dps.

Honestly guys, I feel by the way most bards play or behave (burdened by asking for songs of any type - even foe) they think they have been tricked into playing a support class. (which to be fair i think some were lol)

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

Lol are people really advertising their parses ON THE FORUMS?

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As for you you need to get over it, it's not like any of these people are actually using these numbers to harass someone. We are talking theory craft with parse numbers, if you dont like it then exit the dps forums, there is lots of parse talk here. Our number craft isnt out of spite, you wanting people punished for talking theory is however.

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Originally Posted by Velox

I know, it's great isn't it? Nothing like a good bait thread to get people banned.

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See the above.

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Originally Posted by Defteros

LOLWUT.
srsly.
HEY LOOK I CAN CAST SCATHE WHILE I MOVE.
I'M UNSTOPPABLE.

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This just makes my day xD Let's make a new "BUFF SCATHE PLS" topic just like this one. Simply because BLM aren't top DPS by spamming Scathe - THE spell that allows them great mobility!

Stop whining, bards!

Pros
1) 1st DD slot that raid leaders fill
2) cannot be replaced any non-bard DD
3) takes least skill to play
4) takes least skill to play well
5) least expectation to deal any real DD
6) Yoshi P (Wandering Minstrel) 's job in FFXIV
7) highest average DPS - across diff types of fights (dummy type, high movement type, single mob, multi-mob, new raids, farm raids)

Cons
1) lowest Dps in dummy fights (but see pro #5)
2) most boring to play
3) useless LB
4) AF look bad on male character
5) sissy type of job

I actually think BRD is more fun than MNK, so that makes 3 of those cons totally subjective. :P

I actually like the AF on my male character ;_;

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1) Paeon returns 30 tp every 5 seconds. With some math, it takes 30 seconds for your melee to gain access to 2 abilities that they would have had to wait longer to gain access to. It is roughly a 2-5 dps increase to the melee if it is sang multiple times in a fight. Foe will increase the raid's damage buy a lot more then that. Unless someone has died, Foe has priority. Your melee needs to learn how to control their TP.

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LOLWUT
WE CAN SKIP A DREAD, BUT LET'S CONTROL OUR TP !!!

Do you want some "real" math ?
-Every 18s you are using your 2 dots : 2*80 tp. It will be every 17.5s. 2 out of 7 GCD's are these dots.
-Every 20s you are using Straight Shot : 70 TP. 1 out of 8 GCD is this buff.
-When the dots are up and the buff "Straight Shot" is up, you're using Heavy Shot : 60TP.
Let's imagine that you are unlucky with the RNG and never get the critical "Straight Shot".

With ZERO SKS :
56 GCD : 16 skills at 80TP, 7 skills at 70TP and 33 skills at 60TP. Total : 3750TP -> 67TP per GCD.
Every GCD, we're getting 50 TP and let's add invigorate : 400TP every 120s -> 8.33TP every GCD. Total : 58.33 TP recovered every GCD.
Net loss : 8.66TP every GCD. We are out of TP after 116 GCD, i.e 289s.

Well, a BRD could "manage his TP" by not using his dots :) Yeah, I'm sure Bloodletter isn't a big part of our DPS :p
And by the way, Paeon is 42.8% more TP restored per GCD. I don't know how you are doing some "math", but in a perfect situation, 42.8% more TP = 42.8% more DPS.

If you want the highest single target DPS, play MNK instead.
If you want AoE, play BLM

The idea that every single class must put out equal DPS is ridiculous.

Bards can still put out respectable DPS.

here's how to ensure that you as a bard do not parse the lowest

1) Do not sing paeon. Your monk will not reach 500dps

2) Do not sing requiem. helps you gain 0.05 dps in the saved casting time and more importantly deprive your caster of 10-20dps.

3) Do not sing Ballad. Ask your healers to bring their own MP potions

4) Always DEMAND a drg to be in party and DEMAND the drg to keep disbowel on at all times

5) T8 - dont bother about pulling homing missile - ask your healers to heal up the entire party

6) Stay away from the party for ballastic missile and ask your party members to come to you if you are hit

7) Assign brain jack duty to someone else so that you can focus on DD

my favourite

8) \\'Accidentally\\' cause the death of other DD to lower their DPS. For example, in T7, petrify the mnk or drg from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Pyreflye

If you want the highest single target DPS, play MNK instead.
If you want AoE, play BLM

The idea that every single class must put out equal DPS is ridiculous.

Bards can still put out respectable DPS.

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To be fair, most games these days strive to have the majority of DPS within ~5% of each other. I'm not saying it SHOULD be that way, just that it can come as a system shock to players.

And, I think the person earlier who talked about people being "tricked" into support holds a bit of weight. I mean, I knew what I was getting into when I started leveling BRD, but for a new player, archers are listed as DD's in character creation, and their kit actually suits it really well, only to find out at max level they're held back by what is largely artificial limits to be "support" (i.e. the 20% damage reduction on songs, and the fact that all BRD weapons are like 4 weapon damage lower than other weapons. That's a pretty hefty chunk.)

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Originally Posted by Xisin

stuff

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where did I say I wanted people punished? I'll wait. I'm simply pointing out the fact that you guys are showing off your 3rd party parses which SE doesn't like ON THE FORUMS .

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

where did I say I wanted people punished? I'll wait. I'm simply pointing out the fact that you guys are showing off your 3rd party parses which SE doesn't like ON THE FORUMS .

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Happens quite frequently to be honest, and typically unless you're offending someone that reports your post nothing will happen.

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

where did I say I wanted people punished? I'll wait. I'm simply pointing out the fact that you guys are showing off your 3rd party parses which SE doesn't like ON THE FORUMS .

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Anyone who even gives two hoots about endgame would be using a parser to log the fights and their groups progress and to also easily analyse what was the cause of deaths, wipes and if raid members where targeting and damaging the right mobs.

SE has gotta be thick to think such a behavior that happens in EVERY endgame progression guild on every other mmo wouldn't be present here as well.

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Originally Posted by Akesis

Confirmed, Bards are a DD role... There is no such thing as a support role in this game.

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This is incorrect. Yes they confirmed that they are sticking to the three role system of Tank, Healer, and DPS. However within that system Bard is still a Support-DPS class by virtue of the fact that it has support abilities as it's primary job-abilities post level 30, and because it uses the Healer Limit Break instead of the DPS Limit Break.

These facts alone makes it so Bard is not a true DPS Oriented Class and shouldn't be considered as such by most people. It is strictly speaking a Support-DPS class. Also take into consideration that the Bard has the single highest Mobility out of all the DPS classes in the game, and then you have another reason why it's DPS ratio is not going to be as high as some of the other DPS Classes.

Also, something tells me that Rogue/Ninja is going to have a similar DPS output to Bard when it is finally released due to it being more oriented towards Stealth and Speed than it is towards out and out DPS.

Bard = DPS why people still arguing about it? Here is not a support role... Period.

I am in support of a bard buff because Tracey is no longer falafel. :)

If you want more DPS play Foe's more often. The DPS boost should be counted towards BRD DPS in the same way that DRG piercing debuff should be counted towards DRG DPS not BRD DPS.

Can play songs for ~1min if I recall correctly which means that you're giving 1 or more casters a raging strike buff that lasts for nearly a minute.

An SE hammer is approaching fast D:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DGGcdZ4KYb...hrough-you.png

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

LOLWUT
WE CAN SKIP A DREAD, BUT LET'S CONTROL OUR TP !!!

Do you want some "real" math ?
-Every 18s you are using your 2 dots : 2*80 tp. It will be every 17.5s. 2 out of 7 GCD's are these dots.
-Every 20s you are using Straight Shot : 70 TP. 1 out of 8 GCD is this buff.
-When the dots are up and the buff "Straight Shot" is up, you're using Heavy Shot : 60TP.
Let's imagine that you are unlucky with the RNG and never get the critical "Straight Shot".

With ZERO SKS :
56 GCD : 16 skills at 80TP, 7 skills at 70TP and 33 skills at 60TP. Total : 3750TP -> 67TP per GCD.
Every GCD, we're getting 50 TP and let's add invigorate : 400TP every 120s -> 8.33TP every GCD. Total : 58.33 TP recovered every GCD.
Net loss : 8.66TP every GCD. We are out of TP after 116 GCD, i.e 289s.

Well, a BRD could "manage his TP" by not using his dots :) Yeah, I'm sure Bloodletter isn't a big part of our DPS :p
And by the way, Paeon is 42.8% more TP restored per GCD. I don't know how you are doing some "math", but in a perfect situation, 42.8% more TP = 42.8% more DPS.

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"real math"? I am very confused by this statement...

AP gives 30 TP every 5 seconds. So, it will be 10 or more seconds per ability that TP users gain access to that they wouldn't have regen by themselves (the avg ability is about 80 TP, yes some cost less). Depending on how much MP you have, you should be able to keep any song up for about 60secs (full MP bar - 0 MP). It takes just over 150sec to regen your MP bar from 0. As a side note, I rarely sing myself much below 1k MP until late in the fight (there are times and phases that I go oom). This way I always have a buffer should someone die or poop hit the fan until we have the fight down to an art. I normally only sing for a max of 30 seconds at the cost of 75 seconds to regen while learning.

If you use those numbers: 30 secs of singing = 3 abilities(at most) that they gain access to and it will be another 75 seconds before you can sing again. This is the part where AP is a major waste of your MP and it kills your raid wide dps. If they are close enough on TP that 3 abilities make a difference, they are close enough to learn to sustain. If they are so TP starved that they are doing nothing for the bulk of the fight... They really need to learn to play their job better. So as you would say using "real" math, people need to learn to conserve their tp so the BRD can be free to sing Foe. AP also decreases the BRD's dps while Foe does not. Foe should be the only song that is played unless someone is dead. Go test for yourself, AP is a waste of MP. If you are saying that we as BRD's need AP, I question your rotation. Just because you CAN use an ability, doesn't mean that you SHOULD use that ability. If you know that you run out of TP at the 3-4 min mark and the fight is going to be 6 mins. You should adjust your rotation accordingly. Singing AP isn't worth the DPS loss instead of "tweaking" your rotation to be able to sustain.


To those who keep saying Brd is a hybrid class within the DD jobs. There are 3 roles TANK, HEAL, DD. No sub jobs, no Hybrid jobs. 3 roles. Sure, some jobs do some things better then others. I am not saying nor have I ever stated that we need to be on the top of any dps list. I am merely stating that we are too far below the rest of the jobs. Sure some fights will be better for some jobs rather then others and BRD has "no bad fight". However, in MAX gear. At near MAX play there is too big of a gap between DD roles.

As for adding and subtracting dps from other jobs to "give it to another" because they were buffing them is silly. A job's numbers are their numbers. Do we subtract 10% of a MNK's damage because he buffs himself?

You have a very good ability to talk on airs.

Why do you care so much about the DPS meter? If numbers are low, then replace Bard with a different class. OH WAIT.

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Originally Posted by Akesis

As for adding and subtracting dps from other jobs to "give it to another" because they were buffing them is silly. A job's numbers are their numbers. Do we subtract 10% of a MNK's damage because he buffs himself?

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It's needed to look at the bigger picture, otherwise MNK would always outclass DRG, BRD would never be brought to farm content, and every comp would be MNKs and casters. A job's personal numbers are only one part of how much damage they contributed by being brought.

Also if a MNK buffs himself, he's giving that buff, which means it is his contribution. So no, you would not subtract 10% of a MNK's damage, that makes no sense. If you would bring two MNKs then yes you can subtract the ~10% one MNK gained as a bonus and give it to the other MNK if you want to look at what it contributes.

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Originally Posted by Akesis

Sure some fights will be better for some jobs rather then others and BRD has "no bad fight". However, in MAX gear. At near MAX play there is too big of a gap between DD roles.

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You've been going on and on about MAX gear and MAX play or MAX whatever. But exactly what does it mean to participate in MAX play? Dummies? Name one endgame encounter that isn't T8 that meets the following conditions:

Black mages don't have to move
Summoners don't get enkindle duds and doesn't run out of MP
Monks never lose their stacks and can reach the flank and back whenever and doesn't ever have to leave the target's side
Dragoons can use their jumps whenever without the risk of a derp-death and can reach the flank and back whenever and doesn't ever have to leave the target's side

As it is now, this topic is strangely resembles a sweet 16 episode where the birthday girl cries over getting a mercedes over a BMW

Bards are indeed a ranged physical DPS role, but there is definitely no question that they have support abilities. There's just no "support" classification.

Just like how Scholar is a very supportive class as Eos gives regen effects and Selene gives speed buffs, but is only classified as a healer.

And Warrior...though classified as a tank, can deal decent damage with Defiance turned off.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You've been going on and on about MAX gear and MAX play or MAX whatever. But exactly what does it mean to participate in MAX play? Dummies? Name one endgame encounter that isn't T8 that meets the following conditions:

Black mages don't have to move
Summoners don't get enkindle duds and doesn't run out of MP
Monks never lose their stacks and can reach the flank and back whenever and doesn't ever have to leave the target's side
Dragoons can use their jumps whenever without the risk of a derp-death and can reach the flank and back whenever and doesn't ever have to leave the target's side

As it is now, this topic is strangely resembles a sweet 16 episode where the birthday girl cries over getting a mercedes over a BMW

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I mean a group of people who all know how to play their jobs with a high level of consistency. A group of people who are in BIS or +/- a piece of gear or two. A full group of DD who are 400+ dps on every turn. Every turn the BRD is consistently 30+ dps lower then the next lowest dps. If you would like to say that the BRD needs to work on his rotation more... 400+ dps is as close to perfect as you are going to get.

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AP gives 30 TP every 5 seconds.

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This is 30TP every 3 seconds. Wow, such BRD. So it will be one more action every 6s.
At 0 TP, you can do one action every 3s and stay at 0TP. With Paeon, you can do one action every 2.5s (+20% DPS) and regen your TP by 15 every 3s. Let's take a example : a Bard, with 60 TP left, spamming "Straight Shot" during 60s.
Without Paeon, he will attack 20 times (3s between attacks) and after this minute is still at 0TP.
He starts by casting Paeon (3s) and keeps it during 6 ticks (18s).
0-3s : no attack.
3-20.5s : 7 attacks with -20%. He got 60+6*90 = 600TP and used 420. He's now at 180 TP.
20.5-21s : he removes paeon during the GCD.
21-58.5s : he attacks 15 times and has 0TP after his last attack.
Total : 7*0.8+15 = 20.6 attacks (20 attacks at 80% potency + 5 attacks at full potency). This bard is doing more DPS.

Next time you want to talk about "math", don't try to fool people with false informations.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

random math.

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I want your AP. It is 5 seconds for every BRD in my FC.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

spamming "Straight Shot" during 60s.

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You mean Heavy shot, straight shot costs 70 tp :P

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Originally Posted by Akesis

Just because you CAN use an ability, doesn't mean that you SHOULD use that ability. If you know that you run out of TP at the 3-4 min mark and the fight is going to be 6 mins.

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Yes let's just not use our dots in t8 because.. you know you will run out of tp. Or let's use them not how you should use them in a proper rotation. Because otherwise you would have the -20% dps for 1 min because of paeon... brilliant idea! oh wait...

I think you should go and test your ideas before you talk about them with others >.<

Derp bard detected.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_as...o_see_here.jpg

On a serious note, there's a reason Bards do the least amount of dps, as stated by a large number of people already.
Bards are free to move and shoot as they please, and is probably the easiest job to learn. They are also the best support job in the game (although scholars can make a good case for that as well). They're the 2nd best dps job when it comes to AOE damage.
In short, Bards are fine. Just learn how to play your job and stop complaining. A good bard can out DPS derpy monks and dragoons. As a Bard decked out in High Allagan gear, I honestly expected you to know better.

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Originally Posted by Akesis

I want your AP. It is 5 seconds for every BRD in my FC.

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Pretty sure it's 3 seconds for everyone else in the game. . .

ITT: Misinformed BRD employs less-than-best practices an demonstrates an incomplete knowledge of his/her job of choice during, and after, asking for a buff.

BRD is perfectly fine as is. Ranged DPS with no positional requirements, immense mobility, effective multi-dotting, and effective AoE along with fantastic burst... it wouldn't even need to have access to a number of unique support buffs for party members to be considered balanced... yet it has even that.

Brd needs Buff???No.
Your playing skill for the class need to be buffed?? Yes.

Brd class is literally /if <off CD> use ......How hard can it be?

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Originally Posted by Akesis

If you want to get technical. Which, I can see that you do. Lets look at all of the DD jobs....

BRDs has 4 support abilities (Ballad, Paeon, Foe, Mantra). Can deal damage on the move. low multi target dps.
SMN has 4 support abilities (Virus, Resurrection, Eye for an Eye, Physic(healing as a DD is supporting the raid)). Can deal damage on the move. High multi target dps (if they don't insta-die).
BLM has 4 support abilities ( Virus, Eye for an Eye, Physic(healing as a DD is supporting the raid), Apocatastasis).

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I main BLM and I've never used Physic during raiding, I suck :(

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

I main BLM and I've never used Physic during raiding, I suck :(

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He should really add the durations of each of those support abilities, and then compare it to the bard support abilities.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Pretty sure it's 3 seconds for everyone else in the game. . .

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SE probably nerfed the BRD's in their FC.

Give us higher single target damage.

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Originally Posted by Kagari_Asuha

Give us higher single target damage.

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If you can get a reasonable explanation why this should happen. Give Bard higher single target, but simultaneously lower the effectiveness of their songs. See how Bard centric parties slowly fade of out existance for other DPS.