Forcing the Loot Timer Down: Is This Harassment?

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

This solution worked out well in ST the other day when there were two extra drops (minion and some green throne gem thing) not part of weekly loot lockout, and it became clear there was at least one person out there who was trying to stall other ppl into giving up and leaving.
Others: "Roll already!" - Nothing
Me: "Ok I guess this part where someone doesn't roll thinking ppl give up. I'm going out for a cig." /sit - bam items all get rolled on.
(Tip you don't actually have to smoke in real life for this strategy to work)

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I highly doubt that person finally rolled because you threatened to start smoking...

I was in that party, and yes I rolled cause he started smoking. Because it made me want to smoke, and I didn't have time to wait him out.

Maybe SE should bring back the old 1.0 loot system for the duration of 1 patch to show the people how good the current one is.
A random party member get the loot in his loot bag. He decide then himself if he want to keep it and put it into his inventory or if he want to put it in the inventory of someone else in the party. No Roll involved.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Maybe SE should bring back the old 1.0 loot system for the duration of 1 patch to show the people how oo the current one is.
A random party member get the loot in his loot bag. He decide then himself if he want to keep it and put it into his inventory or if he want to put it in the inventory of someone in the party. No Roll involved.

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Yeah, that sounds like a fantastic system!

No chance of abuse at all...

He wants to waste his time? I would have said
"k getting a snack" I usually walk around a bit after a dungeon away

Kind of a jerk move, but it's not against the rules. The game gives you 3 minutes to decide on your roll (or whatever it actually is) and if he wanted to use all 3 minuets that time, that's his prerogative. Glad it worked out for you in the end.

Frankly I think it's a valid albeit annoying "strategy" if you really want an item. LOL. Trying to get impatient people to waive their right to roll.

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Originally Posted by Pantz

I highly doubt that person finally rolled because you threatened to start smoking...

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Obviously not. It's because they were at least intelligent enough to understand I was going to go do something else other than staring at my screen waiting on them to roll and I could easily wait out the timer as long as they could.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

It was for glamour, so you should have rolled greed on it. You don't NEED to glamour stuff, you WANT to glamour stuff. I hate when people who clearly don't need gear roll need on it anyway.

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You know what I hate? I hate it when entitled people come in as a certain role, let's just say a healer, expecting everyone else to bow to them so they can get all the tank gear they want. If you want your tank gear, tank the dungeon. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I hate it when entitled people come in as a certain role.

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Irony 101.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

lol,the loot system fails ...i always wondered wth SE?

there is a pld that pressed NEED

there is a SCH that CANT press need

why the loot window has to be up until he GREED/PASS (or leave because is the end of the dungeon)....

if this was 1 pld and 1 war and only 1 pressed need ...ok, maybe the other is checking if its a upgrade or something...

SE change the loot time to 60s and if some1 press need and no1 cant need it anymore just let the loot gooooooooooooo dammit

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^This^ so much

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Irony 101.

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Thanks for your contribution. Taking a full statement, chopping it up to 1/3 of what was originally said, and trying to be witty. Unfortunately, I don't think the witty part actually worked out in your favor.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I don't think the witty part actually worked out in your favor.

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Your interpretation is clearly unbiased.

That said, I don't give two hoots whether you find it as such because the reality of it is by supporting the, "Entitled" loot-hungry behaviour of the OP you've already displayed the quality of your character.

What's "ironic" to me, is you are judging "my character," yet you don't know me from Fred. Says a lot about your character, woudn't you say?

Now, I'm done responding to you. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Felis

A healer don't need tank gear. It would be no upgrade for him.

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Because there's no chance that this healer also has a tank that they're trying to gear up?

Rolling greed on an item that I would make practical use of on a different class only to lose it to someone else's need roll so they can use it for glamour is equally as annoying as what happened to the OP. If an item is a lower ilvl than what you currently have equipped, rolling need on it is greedy. Therefore, the loot system needs to be changed to reflect that (i.e. prevent people from rolling need on a piece of gear that is lower ilvl than what they are wearing...just make sure people can't get around it by quickly swapping to a gear set full of ilvl 1 stuff before the chest is opened).

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

What's "ironic" to me, is you are judging "my character," yet you don't know me from Fred.

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Well, that isn't irony for a start. However, I have no need to take long walks down the beach with you hand in hand to learn about your character. Your posts are more than sufficient.

Sounds like there were annoyances on both sides of the coin, so looks like it balances out. I would say the fact that the Healer waited around while you DC'ed/Spirit bonded balances out the fact they made you wait 3 min at the end. Was it a jerk move? Yes, if they wanted the gear they should have asked. You could have easily left the dungeon and let it drop to them if it was an upgrade for them. But your DC's probably made them wait as long, if not longer so I'd let it go.



Personally, while it does not seem to be the popular opinion to most players. I feel it is always polite to ask (if there are pick ups) if there is anything in particular they are looking for. We will use this scenario as an example:

If the tank has simply asked at the start if there was anything the healer was looking for specifically (seeing they were the odd man out 3 to 1), they could have spoken up or not. If they had said they were looking for tanking gear if it was okay with them, then the tank could say they could go for it, or tell the healer they needed it and sorry. Either way, it would have been clear at the start what was going on and would clear up any misunderstandings.

Now I know some will use the reasoning of "Well if they want it they should have gone in on the job!" But we have to remember endgame content all has different iLevels, and it could be very possible that someones secondary job does not have the proper iLevel to enter said instances and they are picking up gear to raise it as they get the chance or people are kind enough to let them roll on it. We can't assume one way or another, but someones need should trump someones greed/glamour in my opinion.

In the end, having a bit of common courtesy and simply asking really quick could go a long way towards stopping a lot of misunderstandings within DF before they even start. But it seems that many like rushing though content, snapping at people for watching CS's, or rage quitting because they didn't get what they want, more so than working together for a common goal.

The way I look at it, is it really shouldn't have to be up to the tank to ask the healer if the healer needs tank gear. It should be up to the healer to speak up and say something. You may get some nice person who will pass on said gear, and you may not.

If, like you're saying, the healer's alt tank isn't high enough to tank the dungeon, why not go in with friends or FC members rather than relying on random people in the DF to cater to you?

But, overall, I agree communication is the key.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

If, like you're saying, the healer's alt tank isn't high enough to tank the dungeon, why not go in with friends or FC members rather than relying on random people in the DF to cater to you?

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If, like the OP is saying, the tank just wants the drop for glamour, why not go in with friends or FC members rather than relying on random people in the DF to cater to you?

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

If, like the OP is saying, the tank just wants the drop for glamour, why not go in with friends or FC members rather than relying on random people in the DF to cater to you?

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Yeah, that is true as well. It's a no win situation. Either side has a case. However, I still stick by my thought that if you really want a particular piece that is role specific, go as that role or go with friends that willl let you win that item.

I was recently looking for the boots of Divine Death to complete the caster set. However, I was healing. I did both DF random queues and FC/friend runs. Never once, did I EXPECT these boots to be automatically given to me as a healer. I simply asked, and if the other party members didn't mind passing, great. If the caster in that DF group wanted them (for stats OR glamour), then no big deal, they can roll need on them. There's always next time.

I need items for seals.

Fact.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

The way I look at it, is it really shouldn't have to be up to the tank to ask the healer if the healer needs tank gear. It should be up to the healer to speak up and say something. You may get some nice person who will pass on said gear, and you may not.

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I used that scenario because in this instance 3 of the 4 knew one another. They probably know one another's main and secondary jobs, and know what pieces each other needs without really discussing it. The healer really is the odd man out going into an unknown situation. I agree, that the healer can ask as well but it would have also been polite for one of the three friends to speak up.

I do many runs where it's 3/4 of us are FC members and we usually always tell the 4th person, 'We are all from the same FC and friends, so speak up if ya have any questions or need something~!'

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

If, like you're saying, the healer's alt tank isn't high enough to tank the dungeon, why not go in with friends or FC members rather than relying on random people in the DF to cater to you?

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But once again that is assuming that the healer was in a position to do that. We don't know what time the run was, it could have been early morning and no one was really on so the healer had to run solo. Or maybe they were getting ready for work and were just doing a run real fast before leaving. It could be they don't have an FC, I see many people in Mor Dhona decked out without an FC, because it's not everyone's thing. I even had a friend where he came back and the FC had decided (granted it was a small FC) to call it quits and he no longer had an FC. There are so many 'but what if it's this situation' that there is no way that anyone in a DF can know.

Which is why, as you agreed:

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

But, overall, I agree communication is the key.

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A simple "If someone needs something in this dungeon or needs help, speak up!" would fix a lot of issues. If people are too lazy to type it, macro it. We could sit here going back and for all day about what if's, but it's all assumptions. Just cut the assumptions out and take 5 seconds to be polite and bam, no more assumptions. If people don't speak up about needing something that's their issue, but at least it was asked. :)

actually, ignore this post; me dumb

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

A simple change would be to set it so that if someone has rolled NEED on an item and no one else can legitimately claim the item (ie, they can only roll Greed), make the item instantly drop. Having the wait timer when no amount of lotting will change the outcome is plain stupid anyway.

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The only reason to not have it check the other types of rolls would be, adding more code can cause a potential bug. More than likely, when they made the lot timer, it never occurred to them that someone might be an asshat and sit there waiting for someone to DC. Nor should they think that. Every other game that I have played with a lot timer like this behaves exactly the same. If someone needs and no one else can need, it still waits out the timer. Personally I think the time is a little long, but then again DCs don't really happen to me.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

It was for glamour, so you should have rolled greed on it. You don't NEED to glamour stuff, you WANT to glamour stuff. I hate when people who clearly don't need gear roll need on it anyway.

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I hate this argument so much. No one really needs dungeon drops either, they merely want them. Decent endgame gear can be crafted. Or spend some tomes.

Glamour is huge to a lot of people, and there are plenty of people who are spamming the crap out of dungeons to get the pieces they want.

Bottom line is, if you want to 'need' an item, come as the job.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

You know what I hate? I hate it when entitled people come in as a certain role, let's just say a healer, expecting everyone else to bow to them so they can get all the tank gear they want. If you want your tank gear, tank the dungeon. It's as simple as that.

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I do too! Run content as the class you expect gear for.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I hate this argument so much. No one really needs dungeon drops either, they merely want them. Decent endgame gear can be crafted. Or spend some tomes.

Glamour is huge to a lot of people, and there are plenty of people who are spamming the crap out of dungeons to get the pieces they want.

Bottom line is, if you want to 'need' an item, come as the job.

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Well, if you really want to pull that card, nobody really needs anything in this game. The concept of Need before Greed is simply that, Need before Greed. If I'm a Black Mage with an i70 Body piece, and an i80 Body piece drops, I clearly need that to better my character. If I'm a Black Mage with an i100 Body piece, and an i80 Body piece drops, I'm being greedy in simply wanting the piece for the sake of aesthetics.

I had two different instances where a party member purposely waited out the clock on something they could only Greed on... thankfully my internet doesn't cut out often and I patiently waited to Need on my items and leave them with nothing. :)

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Originally Posted by Ddmk

Of course it's different
1. I will use it to look pretty
2.i will use it to get stronger

BIGG DIFFERENCE

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not i80 gear. if you want your tank to get stronger, use your healer to farm myths and buy an i90 body piece. nobody who can farm myths Needs an i80 piece to use.

get some gil and buy an i90 crafted tank piece.

anything less than i90 is glamour and vanity only.

Need whatever the hell you want. If they wanted it so bad they should have went as a Tank. The Need/Greed system exists for a reason. There is nothing wrong for gearing for glamour.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Well, if you really want to pull that card, nobody really needs anything in this game. The concept of Need before Greed is simply that, Need before Greed. If I'm a Black Mage with an i70 Body piece, and an i80 Body piece drops, I clearly need that to better my character. If I'm a Black Mage with an i100 Body piece, and an i80 Body piece drops, I'm being greedy in simply wanting the piece for the sake of aesthetics.

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Yes, I would agree that no one really needs anyone one specific piece of gear in this game. One item will not make or break your gear set. But back to my point, sure, an item may be an upgrade for you, but you could simply have a comparable item crafted, or purchased with tomes. So my point still stands. You don't NEED that specific dungeon drop, you just really want it.

To really push this ridiculous situation further, one could argue that by wearing an i70 piece of armor, you're being lazy by not obtaining that crafted/tome item that will most likely be available to you well before RNG favors you with a drop of your liking. But hey, who am I to judge.

You lost me when you said you Need rolled it for glamor. After that, hey...perhaps he wanted it for glamor as well and that was his best tactic to get it. Cant say I blame him.

lmao!...youre seriously going to report a guy because he stood there supposedly because he knowing you would DC over a loot lol.
this seems like a very meager thing to come to the forums and complain about. no offense to you op.
be happy you got the gear and call it a day. besides we have no reason to know why the whm was just standing there...
maybe it was payback since he had to deal with your constant DC's. maybe hes a sadist, maybe he was eating a sammich, maybe his dog ate his face,
maybe he was hoping the last 5 seconds
of the loot thing, you'll dc and never get the loot. we may never know...only god and that whm knows.
muwahhaa!!!
http://24.media.tumblr.com/193bfa090...es1ro1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

lmao!...youre seriously going to report a guy because he stood there supposedly because he knowing you would DC over a loot lol.
this seems like a very meager thing to come to the forums and complain about. no offense to you op.
be happy you got the gear and call it a day. besides we have no reason to know why the whm was just standing there...
maybe it was payback since he had to deal with your constant DC's. maybe hes a sadist, maybe he was eating a sammich, maybe his dog ate his face,
maybe he was hoping the last 5 seconds
of the loot thing, you'll dc and never get the loot. we may never know...only god and that whm knows.
muwahhaa!!!
http://24.media.tumblr.com/193bfa090...es1ro1_500.gif

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The WHM specifically said "230 seconds for glamour". I think that makes the reason obvious. Pretty childish reaction to someone needing on gear, per the rules of the game.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

The WHM specifically said "230 seconds for glamour". I think that makes the reason obvious. Pretty childish reaction to someone needing on gear, per the rules of the game.

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It's childish but complaining to strangers about it is kinda that way as well. Just get up and make a sandwich or a drink while you wait no reason to sit there and watch the timer.

Regardless of how much you had to wait to obtain your gear, your group and WHM had to wait several extra minutes in that dungeon overall because you cannot stay connected. I would have personally votekicked you the first boss and/or left the party. If you are half the group's DPS be responsible about it at least.

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Originally Posted by Vire

It's childish but complaining to strangers about it is kinda that way as well. Just get up and make a sandwich or a drink while you wait no reason to sit there and watch the timer.

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Right there with you. I think this may have been (slightly) better received if they were simply ranting vs. questioning whether or not to report. I probably would have tried to make annoying small talk with the WHM to pass the time. I can't be expected to take the high road all the time ;)

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

This solution worked out well in ST the other day when there were two extra drops (minion and some green throne gem thing) not part of weekly loot lockout, and it became clear there was at least one person out there who was trying to stall other ppl into giving up and leaving.
Others: "Roll already!" - Nothing
Me: "Ok I guess this part where someone doesn't roll thinking ppl give up. I'm going out for a cig." /sit - bam items all get rolled on.
(Tip you don't actually have to smoke in real life for this strategy to work)

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This is the best way to approach this in my opinion. Chances are they don't want to wait either so call them on their bluff and more than likely they'll get frustrated and leave. If they do decide to go, okay, it's five minutes. You should probably take a break anyways. Stretch, go take a shower, make some tea, or anything else that might catch your fancy. More than likely though everyone else is in as much of a "rush" as you are so just do what Buff suggests.

The Duty Finder isn't for your speed, spiritbond, or farming runs. The Duty Finder is made to find people who want to complete the objectives set before them, that's it. If you want to speed run it, hope that everyone else wants to as well. If you want to spiritbond, hope that everyone else is okay with that. You want to farm whatever content is available, good luck. If not everyone is okay with that, they have the option to either vote kick or leave on their own accord. The systems are in place for everyone to get a fair shot at what it is they want on top of a legitimate harassment notification system. Some want it more than others and will use the systems mechanics to their intended purposes.

I've found that if I just mention I want certain loot from a dungeon I'll just proclaim it in the beginning and the people doing their Duty Roulette will just pass on it without issue. When I'm on a different class or a lowbie character entirely, I'm able to greed the majority of the stuff cause in general the community likes to be helpful when they can. Otherwise they're going to do what they can to benefit themselves and there's really nothing wrong with that.

The OP's situation could've been avoided with just a bit of communication prior to running the dungeon and, according to their own testimony and much to their chagrin, it sounds like the OP was the one being the biggest timesink to the group as a whole. I don't think the healer was being a jerk at all. They had just as much right, and patience, to lose the roll as the OP had to win it.

Perhaps the loot timer could be brought down from five minutes to two or three but I'd imagine the situation would still seem controversial.

Don't think you're going to accomplish much by reporting him but you're a tank. I'd just commit his name to memory and avoid running with him again with his attitude.

Well, this got a little more reception than I expected. Here's a little more info to fill in some blank spots.

1. I have not reported the Scholar in question for this action. I was merely fuzzy as to whether "attempting to get an item someone Need Rolled on" in this manner is against the TOS. People seem to be in agreement here that it is not against the TOS, but it was kind of a jerk move. I was also apparently wrong on the "If I DC, I lose the right to the item" theory. Apparently I just need to be connected when the clock hits zero. However, I did find that if I am DC'ed when a chest is opened, I have no roll.

2. The healer never attempted to vote dismiss me. I was chatting with the others through Teamspeak and would have definitely been informed if such an attempt had been made.

3. The healer made absolutely no indication that s/he wanted that piece of gear for any reason. Perhaps I should have asked, but the healer could have just as easily asked me to leave at that moment because "My alt wants it" or something.

4. It is absolutely true that the gear matters more in these dungeons than others. In most dungeons, we have a 1 out of 8 chance or so for the piece of gear we want from a given chest. In these dungeons, the chance is far far lower to even see a piece of gear, any piece of gear, at all. Seeing this piece of armor drop was a truly momentous occasion as I'd been specifically trying to avoid Tam Tara in order to hunt for it all month.

5. If this were just a normal "oh, he's just going to let the timer tick down? Okay, /sit", I'd just sigh, wait, and then move on. The issue here was my very well known connection problems making this whole situation many times more stressful than it ever needed to be. I was convinced that the healer was hoping that I would DC or at least DC at the right time to lose the item entirely, which is why I thought it might be against the TOS: attempting to circumvent a system of the game to obtain an item someone else rolled for at a higher priority than you.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I probably would have done the same thing as the healer. It would have been one thing if it was an upgrade for you, but your need for glamour isn't any more of a need than my need for seals or desynthesis. Your connection is your responsibility.

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And how exactly will the Healer win by greeding over a Tank that will need a Tank piece?

Same thing is happening in ST now, where 'nice' people wait until you give up waiting so the loot will be theirs.

In OP's case - healer knew chances for the Tank to disconnect would be high, so by waiting he could have a chance to get it.

What type of people are playing games..

SE should make a questionnaire to make sure that dumb and dumber peeps would have their own servers.

Edit: I will have to wait now to give commendations, until loot is cleared.. sigh..

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Quote Originally Posted by Buff_Archer View Post
This solution worked out well in ST the other day when there were two extra drops (minion and some green throne gem thing) not part of weekly loot lockout, and it became clear there was at least one person out there who was trying to stall other ppl into giving up and leaving.
Others: "Roll already!" - Nothing
Me: "Ok I guess this part where someone doesn't roll thinking ppl give up. I'm going out for a cig." /sit - bam items all get rolled on.
(Tip you don't actually have to smoke in real life for this strategy to work)

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

This is the best way to approach this in my opinion. Chances are they don't want to wait either so call them on their bluff and more than likely they'll get frustrated and leave. If they do decide to go, okay, it's five minutes. You should probably take a break anyways. Stretch, go take a shower, make some tea, or anything else that might catch your fancy. More than likely though everyone else is in as much of a "rush" as you are so just do what Buff suggests.

The Duty Finder isn't for your speed, spiritbond, or farming runs. The Duty Finder is made to find people who want to complete the objectives set before them, that's it. If you want to speed run it, hope that everyone else wants to as well. If you want to spiritbond, hope that everyone else is okay with that. You want to farm whatever content is available, good luck. If not everyone is okay with that, they have the option to either vote kick or leave on their own accord. The systems are in place for everyone to get a fair shot at what it is they want on top of a legitimate harassment notification system. Some want it more than others and will use the systems mechanics to their intended purposes.

I've found that if I just mention I want certain loot from a dungeon I'll just proclaim it in the beginning and the people doing their Duty Roulette will just pass on it without issue. When I'm on a different class or a lowbie character entirely, I'm able to greed the majority of the stuff cause in general the community likes to be helpful when they can. Otherwise they're going to do what they can to benefit themselves and there's really nothing wrong with that.

The OP's situation could've been avoided with just a bit of communication prior to running the dungeon and, according to their own testimony and much to their chagrin, it sounds like the OP was the one being the biggest timesink to the group as a whole. I don't think the healer was being a jerk at all. They had just as much right, and patience, to lose the roll as the OP had to win it.

Perhaps the loot timer could be brought down from five minutes to two or three but I'd imagine the situation would still seem controversial.

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Nice, to the point these 2 quotes.

Still, when captain obvious is there, like Tank piece drops and Tank state he need it, no point to wait as you will lose nonetheless.

But all the rest of your comments about DF, +1

Where is the Cry Me A River gif?