Gap between MNK and DRG dps widening

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

And a DRG comes in to be the voice of reason, thank you ^_^

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Tech I main drg until recently I didn't tank 6/7 I was drg 6-9 and outside coil I'm usually on drg. But still I cannot out damage my monk playing perfectly in T8 he can curb stomp my dps lol. Not that I care that much since I (like many others will be on ninja anyways.) DRG has its pluses but trying to sell it as "it boosts brd's damage thus it makes up for it" is wrong. As I pointed out earlier, utilizing a second monk provides a better damage out put. You need to run 3 piercing damage classes to make disembowel shine.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Tech I main drg until recently I didn't tank 6/7 I was drg 6-9 and outside coil I'm usually on drg. But still I cannot out damage my monk playing perfectly in T8 he can curb stomp my dps lol. Not that I care that much since I (like many others will be on ninja anyways.) DRG has its pluses but trying to sell it as "it boosts brd's damage thus it makes up for it" is wrong. As I pointed out earlier, utilizing a second monk provides a better damage out put. You need to run 3 piercing damage classes to make disembowel shine.

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Speculative note... I wonder if Ninja will be piercing based DPS...
Even with the superior DPS, if that becomes the case, Monk is still going to have a hard time fighting that level of party synergy.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Speculative note... I wonder if Ninja will be piercing based DPS...
Even with the superior DPS, if that becomes the case, Monk is still going to have a hard time fighting that level of party synergy.

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Well we know Ninja is one class that we're going to get. I assume they will be a slashing myself (though they could have Piercing attacks as well!). I'm thinking... that possibly this gun class that we are supposed to get (albeit a unconventional or "gun class we wouldn't expect") might be doing blunt type damage with bullets (akin to many Pen and Paper RPGs) which would give another class synergy with the Monks Dragon Kick.

We'll just have to wait and see!

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

Well we know Ninja is one class that we're going to get. I assume they will be a slashing myself (though they could have Piercing attacks as well!). I'm thinking... that possibly this gun class that we are supposed to get (albeit a unconventional or "gun class we wouldn't expect") might be doing blunt type damage with bullets (akin to many Pen and Paper RPGs) which would give another class synergy with the Monks Dragon Kick.

We'll just have to wait and see!

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Right, the overall point I was trying to make with the speculation is this:

The power an effectiveness of classes waxes and wanes over the course of MMOs. This is par for the course and rarely cause for alarm. The developers have access to far more information than the average player and will make adjustments both on feedback and hard data they have collected. There's no need for extreme hyperbole that seems to be the frequent language within official boards these days, particularly MMO boards.

There is also the habits of players to consider. The top endgame players will often be so flexible in their job makeup that shifting classes to accommodate the current Meta will not affect player attendance. The Mainstream players will often play with statics which will play with a players favorite class even if it is not the most effective. So the real complaint argument here comes form those who are on the casual, parroting off of complaints between those at the top, and those in the mainstream who seem not to want to admit to being hardcore or mainstream, when in truth, in neither of these conditions does the performance difference matter or is actually achieved. The game makes clear DPS checks that each damage class class, regardless of comparative performance, can meet within the expected margin of error for the run, which varies from fight to fight.

It is up to each individual group how restrictive their performance policies and advancement ambitions are, and it is not the fault of the developers when players start splitting percentage points in an effort to make up for performance issues elsewhere, or in a vain desire to be the absolute best.

Having been on all spectrum of playstyles, I've settled into Mainstream due to the reduced stress involved while still satisfying my drive to improve. Those who are frustrated at performance differences, may wish to make a playstyle choice: Are you going to be concerned about best performance and play a wide variety of classes? Or are you going to be concerned with play preferences and worry less about comparative performance?

No matter how perceive the class balance becomes, that choice will always be one a player group has to make, no exceptions. There's no point in blaming a developer for this reality of gaming - there's little they can do about it.

My advice, just enjoy the ride.

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

Armor really has nothing to do with anything. Last I checked they added a vanity system :p

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Exactly, just pointing out the stupid statement from the MNK.

I was cracking a joke. I'm fully aware of the vanity system. So many butt hurt lancer babies.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

Exactly, just pointing out the stupid statement from the MNK.

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

I was cracking a joke. I'm fully aware of the vanity system. So many butt hurt lancer babies.

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Lets please not let this get out of hand.

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

I was cracking a joke. I'm fully aware of the vanity system. So many butt hurt lancer babies.

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To be honest, I didn't get the joke at all; so I just ignored it. Was thinking to myself what armour looked like Power Ranger and gave up.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Not a day goes by without a lolDRG jumping to his death. lol

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This pun..

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Originally Posted by Muzetta

As for why people would want Monk over DRG, jumps are a possibility.

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Not a day goes by without a lolDRG jumping to his death. lol

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

So many butt hurt lancer babies.

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Oh look, another snide remark.

Grow. Up.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Not a day goes by without a lolDRG jumping to his death. lol

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I've probably used Elusive Jump more to get out of hairy situations than using Jump and dying... lol.

Oddly enough, I rarely die using jump. It's a risk move, but I tend to get the timing of attacks down well enough that I've minimized the risks for the things I am doing. Then again, my evasion is above average for my group, which, again, isn't a hardcore raiding group. We're progressing at our own pace. I understand the drive to improve... but... the ratrace is usually not enjoyable. Dance to your own tune.

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Originally Posted by Incatasi

It's really simple honestly, Drgs can get to max dps within a couple moves, Mnks take a good while longer, so in fights where u cant attack anything for a bit, mnk will lose a lot of dps.

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Pefect Balance, Demolish, 2x Twin strikes. instant GL3 XD

But yep, in fights where you can lose GL3 eg, getting eaten with honey glazed. Getting shrieked can have a big impact on DPS for MNK.

But reason DRG is behind MNK is because they don't need to maintain anything similar to GL3 and that they have the second highest physical defence only surpassed (of course) by tanks.

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

Think about what you say before you say them.

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On these forums? really? Will never happen :P

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Pefect Balance, Demolish, 2x Twin strikes. instant GL3 XD

But yep, in fights where you can lose GL3 eg, getting eaten with honey glazed. Getting shrieked can have a big impact on DPS for MNK.

But reason DRG is behind MNK is because they don't need to maintain anything similar to GL3 and that they have the second highest physical defence only surpassed (of course) by tanks.

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Did you mean Snap Punch? Thought Twin Snakes only gave attack buff not GL... Don't play Monk long enough to know.

If I'm going for a PB opener I try to get in Snap Punch, Snap Punch, then demolish. I may be wrong but doesn't the demolish DoT snap shot your current power? So wouldn't GL 2/3 be a better point to drop it on. Then I finish up with ToD before the timer runs out that way my rotation is messed up by the reset of skills when perfect balance falls off.

I could very well be wrong in all of this though, I don't hold any illusions of knowing what the hell I'm doing. I just like to punch things.

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

If I'm going for a PB opener I try to get in Snap Punch, Snap Punch, then demolish. I may be wrong but doesn't the demolish DoT snap shot your current power? So wouldn't GL 2/3 be a better point to drop it on. Then I finish up with ToD before the timer runs out that way my rotation is messed up by the reset of skills when perfect balance falls off.

I could very well be wrong in all of this though, I don't hold any illusions of knowing what the hell I'm doing. I just like to punch things.

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Personally, when I PB a mob, I generally do so like this. I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's what I do.

ToD > DK > TS > Dem > PB > BfB+IR > SP > SP > SP (sometimes I can work in a 4th).

By then I'm at 3 GL stacks, Dem is about to wear down, so I will DK > TS > Dem again.

Then ToD is near wearing down, so I do that then BS > TS > SP x2; then I do my DK > TS > Dem on every third rotation (because by the third rotation, my buffs and DoT from that rotation is nearly worn down, or has just worn down); and, I apply ToD as needed.

I out-dps 99% of ppl i played with, on DRG; the only ppl that do more damage than me, are ppl with higher ilv (usually not even then) and MNK.
in my coil static, the MNK usually has 50higher dps than me, and we're equally geared.
Yoshi himself has said that each job is a bit different: DRG is easy to use, and MNK has the capacity for nr1 dps...so there you go.
It kind of pisses me off, that no matter what i do, these monks always out-dps me, but that's just how it is i suppose :)
We'll see about NIN, where that will fit in.

I think this thread has gone from a guy asking "Do Monks DPS faster than DRGs?" to "MY CLASS IS BETTER LOL." Seriously, knock it off. Play the class you want, it makes no freaking difference. I play DRG because I enjoy DRG. It's the only reason I even subscribe to FFXIV. To be a DRG. In fact, next to the Lvl.10 Pugilist and recently Lvl.29 MRD, DRG is the only Job/Class I play. If I'm in a dungeon and I get outDPS'd by a Monk, I'm not going to get assmad about it. I'm going to be happy that the fight is going by quicker and that we might be closer to winning. I do my job by providing DPS: as long as we can win, who cares? I thought we'd already be through this garbage when comparing DRG/MNK to BRD w/Mages.

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Originally Posted by Ruri

I out dmg mnks usually by 20 dps or so for second coil fights.

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They need more training.

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Originally Posted by Billzey

lol what? I will uninstall this game the moment a BLM outdamages me (BRD) on raid content. I've never been outdamaged by any job other than MNK, and BLM is very far behind. The buff should close the gap some, but there is a reason they are getting buffed...

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Every drg and smn youve been with needs more training then. Blm as well, as they shouldnt be "very far behind" except maybe on fights like Levi ex where bards and smn can dot the mess out of all spumes and boost their numbers

I'd say it really depends on the fight. A drg will have a far higher burst than any mnk and if we're talking about a boss with several
phases where the boss is untargetable for a short time (mnk loses stacks), the drg will be able to do more dps. On the other hand
the mnk will have a great advantage if they get their time hitting the boss..

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

I play MNK because MNK is fun. If they were the worst DPS in the game I'd still play a MNK. Dragoons are boring.

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I used to think DRG was boring too, but ive grown to like the lance twirls and cherry blossoms of chaos thrust, along with that effect music that plays with the ability. I like doing the SHOOORYUKEN full thrust too lol.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

They need more training.



Every drg and smn youve been with needs more training then. Blm as well, as they shouldnt be "very far behind" except maybe on fights like Levi ex where bards and smn can dot the mess out of all spumes and boost their numbers

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MORE METABOTS! MORE....wait nvm.

All I got from what you said was everyone needs more training, which is pretty subjective just by itself.

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

Personally, when I PB a mob, I generally do so like this. I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's what I do.

ToD > DK > TS > Dem > PB > BfB+IR > SP > SP > SP (sometimes I can work in a 4th).

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I ToD > PB > Demolish > SP > SP> TS > DK. PB ends, 3 attacks after PB and straight into 3 GL.

Also you can't really keep your rotation static as factors, like having to dodge out of melee range, can affect when your rotation reapplies DoTs. So to maximize you need to adapt your rotation depending on the fly.

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Originally Posted by GurrenLagann

Did you mean Snap Punch? Thought Twin Snakes only gave attack buff not GL... Don't play Monk long enough to know.

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I totally did *hides*.

I main DRG and haven't use my MNK much after I cap it, but I find both of them to be pretty balance:
1. DRGs have better burst damage, MNKs have better sustain damage.
2. DRGs have lesser positioning to do, but we are screwed if we miss them. MNKs needs to dance around the mobs much more often, but they can still keep their combo up even if they miss the positioning sometimes.
3. DRGs have 4 jumps with decent or long ass cds to travel across the maps (and 4x the chance to jump into their own death), MNKs have shoulder tacker with a much shorter cd.
4. DRGs buff BRD damage, MNKs can cover that buff bonus and add a little icing on top of it. (Theoretically 1 DRG + 1 BRD should just be a little lower than 1 MNK + another non-MNK dps)
5. They both have a useless skill, Feint for DRGs and One Ilm Punch for MNKs.

Seems pretty balance to me :)

I think the thing that most people can agree upon is, assuming all gears are equal and conditions are ideal, pick a MNK if you have one BRD and DRG if you have two BRD (assuming there's only one MNK in both conditions).
It helps to stack multiple MNKs for bootshine and dragon kick, but there's no bonus for stacking DRGs unless you enjoy aerobatic show. I swear it was damn fun looking at 8 DRGs flying all over the place in CT once.

As for loldrg... it's the result of bad timing of jump + DRGs having the lowest M.DEF in the game. (P.DEF is pretty much worthless at end game raids)

Back when Titan EX was still new, I saw far too many DRGs jumps like 3 frame before Weight of the Land and then proceed to blame the animation lock for killing them -_-

Something I'll never understand about MMO players: Why do you want to weaken your raid by asking for nerfs for the other classes in it?

Side note: MNKs are balanced around losing Greased Lightning, made clear by the fact we have zero access to an enmity drop and the immunity phases a majority of bosses come with. Take away that limiter (t8 and t6/7 if you have god-tier luck) and obviously MNKs will pull above average numbers. Moreover, MNKs have the worst AoE in the game (except when Perfect Balance is up...every 3 minutes), can we be good at something please?

DRG's have group synergy. Add in the boost they give to one or two BRDs in the party and the cumulative DPS should be closer to Monk.

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

Something I'll never understand about MMO players: Why do you want to weaken your raid by asking for nerfs for the other classes in it?

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Pretty much complaining about 1 fight, turn 8 where MNK shines the most due to being able to stick on the boss non stop for the whole fight. Whereas the rest of the content there are numerous ways where you can lose GL3 due to mechanics (and RNG^^). DRG v MNK on primals. DRG out DPSes MNK due to mechanics. Turn 6, MNK gets honey glazed, lose GL3. Turn 7, MNK gets shriek a couple of times, huge DPS drop and DRG can surpass.

If they, at some point, add a boss fight with constant adds, BLM will out shine everyone. Will that mean BLM needs changing? Newp.

This is what I why I loathe dps meters.

People can't be happy about their own DPS since it isn't about their top dps. It's about that guy over there with a different play style and job than their own that matters.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

This is what I why I loathe dps meters.

People can't be happy about their own DPS since it isn't about their top dps. It's about that guy over there with a different play style and job than their own that matters.

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Has nothing to do about meters, but hey if you are don't like them can always have SE roll back the blm buffs coming up for you ;P
They wouldn't have changed blm unless people had noticed it lagging behind everyone else's damage.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Has nothing to do about meters.

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So how does someone know that same ilvl MNK can insanely out dps a DRG?

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Originally Posted by Mardel

but hey if you are don't like them can always have SE roll back the blm buffs coming up for you ;P

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Take that troll attempt somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

They wouldn't have changed blm unless people had noticed it lagging behind everyone else's damage.

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For (1) I wasn't the one complaining about blm dps and (2) how is a potency boost gonna fix movement issue dps?

0 thought process, nothing but me me meters.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

MORE METABOTS! MORE....wait nvm.

All I got from what you said was everyone needs more training, which is pretty subjective just by itself.

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Which is why you must use context.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Which is why you must use context.

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That was in contxt. Every situation you replied to you said they needed more training because they weren't preforming how you felt they should.

honestly this comes down to a few simple things.

MNK: High Sustain DPS (the stuff you see on boss fights like T8 and extended phases), decent burst on a long CD (usually only gonna see it once per fight), Long Build up (GL3 dawg)

So what does this mean? Its circumstantial. when you can sit there and punch, MNK all the way.

DRG: High Burst (possibly the highest burst in-game), second highest sustain (really the only other class that bests it is MNK), short Build up (HT, and CT (if you need it)).

Again what does this mean? Great for most fights in the game. in fights with 5+ second regular downtime intervals expect to be on top. Also much more useful in push phases due to the spike.


They are different. its all based on the situation. second coil does favor MNKs just because of the fights. who knows maybe third coil will favor DRGs. If you want perfect balance (see what I did there) your asking for them to be the same class.

Each job has it's time in the limelight. I can remember everyone wanting drg for ifrit in 1.0, then everyone wanting mnk for misers mistress. Bards had their time as the dps of choice and similarly blm was the go to job for some fights in 1.0.
It isn't a static situation, jobs will continue to see attempts to balance them and particular fights will come along favouring one or the other. If your job isn't the bees knees at the moment then just wait around and it will get its turn.
We're only a few days away from the patch now and the BLM adjustments, it'll be the same complaints but with different jobs complaining.

If you're party composition includes a DRG / BRD , that's where your DPS is offset against a MNK's higher DPS thresh hold. IF DRG's were to do as much damage as a MNK then the general cookie composition would always be present and MNK's would fall short of favor in terms of selection.

Use your noggins.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So how does someone know that same ilvl MNK can insanely out dps a DRG?

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I have a really good abacus.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/artisticchin..._2270_69652262

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

This is what I why I loathe dps meters.

People can't be happy about their own DPS since it isn't about their top dps. It's about that guy over there with a different play style and job than their own that matters.

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You don't need a DPS meter to know that MNK DPS is more devastating than other classes. All it takes is simple arithmetic lol.

(Not complaining just stating the obvious)

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

That was in contxt. Every situation you replied to you said they needed more training because they weren't preforming how you felt they should.

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No. Not how I felt they should. It's how they should be performing given their selected job and given the numbers provided for each job's ceiling that has already been well established. If she out dpses every drg and smn she comes across, then they need to get better. Context.