[Balance change] Change Divine Seal from +30% healing potency to +30% mind stat

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

numbers

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I love how you completely disregard the initial cast time of Miasma giving you the full 5 ticks of the 15 seconds. If you're using swiftcast, guess I'll just throw another Stone II on mine as well since yours clearly comes out instantly. So WHM now becomes 1380 using your logic.

Also if you're going to swiftcast anything during a burst, it shouldn't be your weakest potency DoT. (other than Miasma II) You'd gain way more by swiftcasting Bio II/Miasma and get the 175 potency, instead of the 125 from Shadow Flare.

Edit: Also want to point out this.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Somehow, you've managed to construct absolutely the WORST six-move rotation for a SCH burst. A more intelligent 6 GCD rotation would be:

Miasma 20 initial+175
Aero 50 initial+100
Energy Drain 150
Bio 120

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You ridicule me for a bad rotation, when you, for some reason, choose Aero before Bio. Using Bio first raises it's potency by 40, and drops Aero potency by 25. And even after it all, you end up with a rotation that is 30 potency higher than mine was, and completely divebombs your overall DPS as time goes on. So good work for showing a bad rotation for your "intelligent" example.

Edit 2:

Oh, and btw this.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Are you stupid or something? The highest burst rotation on SCH changes as you increase the # of GCDs. Instead of Bio, Ruin spam, you put up all your dots and your dps blows way past WHM without even using Energy Drain. At 5 GCDs, you've put up all your dots and they'll tick stronger than Stone II so that plus Ruin is greater than anything that WHM can dish out

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It's funny, cause you claimed that in 5 GCDs, you could have all your DoTs up, and still beat WHM without even using Energy Drain. Yet you still post a rotation that is missing a DoT, that spams bio/ruin, and that requies you to use all 3 Energy Drains just to barely keep up, which is exactly what you said you didn't need. Strange.

So I think it's safe to say you have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm glad you don't get to make these kind of "Balance" decisions.

Still better than your stab at it. It's late and I'm tired, so sue me. Shadow Flare should be up from beforehand or you're a bad scholar, no swiftcast required. Even without the first tick of Miasma, SCH is still ahead.

Miasma 20 initial+140
Bio 160
Energy Drain 150
Aero 50 initial+75
Energy Drain 150
Ruin II 80
Energy Drain 150
Ruin 80
Ruin 80
= 1135 potency + 125 potency from Shadow Flare

In a 10 GCD burst (something like T8 dreadnaught), you would save 1 energy drain to keep up with a WHM playing optimally. But I guess you wouldn't know since you've never set foot in SCOB, have you?

So Shadow Flare being up beforehand means you've casted Shadow Flare..which is another GCD. So you've used 7 GCDs. I guess you don't know even elementary school math.

Shadow Flare already being up doesn't matter as there are no unpredictable burst situations. There is no reason it shouldn't already be up. Having it up in advance is a "free" GCD. Should a MNK discount that they have GL3 already when an add pops? Should melee discount that they have a combo queue'd up for a newly spawned add? Should a BRD discount that Straight Shot was just refreshed? Should I give more examples of how this vacuum scenario is stupid?

We're not even considering Bane from boss to add which puts SCH ahead by even more.

SCH being slightly better for single target damage wouldn't be balanced by a 30% buff to WHM damage for 15s out of every 60s.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Still better than your stab at it.= 1135 potency + 125 potency from Shadow Flare

In a 10 GCD burst (something like T8 dreadnaught), you would save 1 energy drain to keep up with a WHM playing optimally. But I guess you wouldn't know since you've never set foot in SCOB, have you?

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Congratulations! You've found a rotation that was 10 potency better than mine! A rotation that STILL excludes Bio II, and lowers your overall DPS by the next GCD, so it's actually a WORSE rotation than mine! A WINNER IS YOU!

And I love that you have a single example where SCH can do better burst damage, (Which in 10 GCD your DPS shouldn't have needed you anyway) and you think this merits a debuff to one of the best Healing skills in a White Mage's arsenal. If your DPS can't cut it to the point where BOTH healers need to be DPSing on a burst, get new DPS.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

It's funny, cause you claimed that in 5 GCDs, you could have all your DoTs up, and still beat WHM without even using Energy Drain. Yet you still post a rotation that is missing a DoT, that spams bio/ruin, and that requies you to use all 3 Energy Drains just to barely keep up, which is exactly what you said you didn't need. Strange.

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I guess we can add "reading comprehension" to that list as well. I did in fact claim that in 5 GCDs, I could have all my DoTs up. I did not claim that putting up 5 DoTs would be the best burst in 5 GCDs. You start saving Energy Drains on the order of 10-15 GCD bursts. And of course after DoTs are up, you start casting Ruin. What else would you be doing for damage in the extra time? Another thing we haven't even begun talking about is accuracy. At the current accuracy cap from gear, you can hit about 400 accuracy without food, when the magic accuracy cap is 470. I don't have a lot of data about what hit rate that translates to but my gut feeling from personal observation is that this amounts to roughly 65-70% hit rate. Bio, Bio II, and Shadow Flare cannot miss, whereas everything in WHM's repertoire can and does often, requiring extra casts to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Congratulations! You've found a rotation that was 10 potency better than mine! A rotation that STILL excludes Bio II, and lowers your overall DPS by the next GCD, so it's actually a WORSE rotation than mine! A WINNER IS YOU!

And I love that you have a single example where SCH can do better burst damage, (Which in 10 GCD your DPS shouldn't have needed you anyway) and you think this merits a debuff to one of the best Healing skills in a White Mage's arsenal. If your DPS can't cut it to the point where BOTH healers need to be DPSing on a burst, get new DPS.

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Have you noticed a pattern yet? You tailor your burst damage rotation based on the length of the burst. If you add a GCD, you would frontload another DoT, not add another Ruin to the end. This is pretty basic stuff here, try to keep up.

No one here is asking for a debuff (do you mean nerf?) to Divine Seal. I'm asking for a change which would allow it to increase both damage and healing whereas it currently only increases healing. No one is saying that both healers are dpsing during a burst phase either, we were merely performing a mental exercise about which job had better burst in different lengths of time. And if you're trying to get world firsts, you need to squeeze as much dps as you can since you'll be undergeared for content.

Not needed, WHM already has a DPS cooldown in the form of Presence of Mind and much stronger AoE. SCH has better cleave and single target.

Situational benefits already exist, no need to just buff WHM for no reason

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

I guess we can add "reading comprehension" to that list as well. I did in fact claim that in 5 GCDs, I could have all my DoTs up. I did not claim that putting up 5 DoTs would be the best burst in 5 GCDs.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

At 5 GCDs, you've put up all your dots and they'll tick stronger than Stone II so that plus Ruin is greater than anything that WHM can dish out

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Amazing. Can you even read your own posts? Because that's exactly what you said.

How about... no.

I play Scholar AND White Mage, and really they DPS in very different ways. Cleric Stance, for the uninitiated, not only swaps INT with MIND but it also increases the POTENCY of attack spells. People seem to conveniently forget that part when it fails to fit in their own arguments. By that definition, it's our 'burst' skill, used to add some DPS to the fight.

Furthermore, someone here is entirely missing the point about 'balance'. Balance doesn't mean "doing this thing as good as this person", it's across the board. Scholar benefits from damage mitigation, White Mage benefits from burst healing. Scholar benefits from higher DPS over time, White Mage benefits from high burst damage. This really isn't rocket science people.

Your 'suggestion' would not only destroy the usefulness of Divine Seal, but tip the balance further into White Mage's favour. So, no... it's a stupid idea.

"At 5 GCDs" =/= "(with)in 5 GCDs". Think about the difference. Think hard.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

"At 5 GCDs" =/= "(with)in 5 GCDs". Think about the difference. Think hard.

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I'm thinking you had to cast 5 spells to get there, whilst I've just cast 5 spells to beat that DPS in a shorter time-frame. Lest you forget that while you're messing around casting DoT skills, the WHM has already cast another Stone II to add solid damage rather than preparation damage. Let's also not forget that in order to SUSTAIN that level of DPS, you'd need to constantly recast them since you don't have access to Carbuncle or Summoner's ability to extend their duration.

Your argument falls flat on its own logic.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

"At 5 GCDs" =/= "(with)in 5 GCDs". Think about the difference. Think hard.

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You know ... You should stop trying to force your point of view onto others when clearly 98% of them are against you there.

WHM and SCH have both their uses and flaws, they're pretty much balanced atm.
I main both, I play both, I raid with both, I sr with both and I like both for what they are.

You should chill out.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Your 'suggestion' would not only destroy the usefulness of Divine Seal

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Where are you getting this impression that this change would "destroy the usefulness of Divine Seal"? I am literally asking for no change in its current functionality and in addition, have it improve damage by X% along with its healing improvement.

Also, see earlier in the thread for why SCH burst is higher. It's all about tailoring the burst to the length. There's math involved. A 5 GCD burst for SCH looks very different from the first 5 GCDs of a longer burst, say 10 GCDs. Also, I was responding to someone else.

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Originally Posted by SirSaber

You know ... You should stop trying to force your point of view onto others when clearly 98% of them are against you there.

WHM and SCH have both their uses and flaws, they're pretty much balanced atm.
I main both, I play both, I raid with both, I sr with both and I like both for what they are.

You should chill out.

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But, but...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

I also raid with both and wish I could pump out as much deeps on WHM as I can on SCH.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

"At 5 GCDs" =/= "(with)in 5 GCDs". Think about the difference. Think hard.

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If you want to change your story because you got proven wrong, several times, go ahead. Hope it makes you feel better.

Your whole argument is based around SCH being better than WHM at burst damage. Even with the best rotation you could come up with, WHM still wins at 6 GCDs, and that's even with you burning an ENTIRE Aetherflow stack, which is about as stupid as a WHM spamming Holy for the extra DPS. Without Energy Drain, SCH is 500+ potency behind at 6 GCDs. Even with EVERY one of your DoTs ticking, including Aero, and using Ruin, you only gain and extra 70 potency every GDC. By 10 GDC, which is the t8 dread you love to mention, you are still 220 potency behind WHM. (Not even taking into account the GDC you lose by refreshing your DoTs.) So you still have to use 2 Energy Drains just to barely pass WHM, even though WHM required ZERO special tactics at all to reach this DPS.

So go on thinking SCH is better at burst damage, all you'e doing is hurting yourself in the end.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Your whole argument is based around SCH being better than WHM at burst damage. Even with the best rotation you could come up with, WHM still wins at 6 GCDs, and that's even with you burning an ENTIRE Aetherflow stack, which is about as stupid as a WHM spamming Holy for the extra DPS.

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What else am I gonna spend it on in faceroll content or the first half of a very boring to heal fight? Soil nobody needs? Lustrate to save the MP I'm not even burning?

"Spamming" Holy also, as mentioned previously, is not even extra DPS on single target.

Anyone got some popcorn? This is fun...

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

What else am I gonna spend it on in faceroll content or the first half of a very boring to heal fight? Soil nobody needs? Lustrate to save the MP I'm not even burning?

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If healing is that non-important as you say, then queue with 5 DPS. Problem solved

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

If healing is that non-important as you say, then queue with 5 DPS. Problem solved

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And I'll still find the time to DPS. Not sure what your point is.

Just make it "Increased Damage Potency & Healing Potency by 30%"

Changing it to Mind is a silly proposal.

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Originally Posted by Parz3val

Just make it "Increased Damage & Healing Potency by 30%"

Changing it to Mind is a silly proposal.

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lol.









lol.

30% damage is way more than 30% MND. 30% healing potency is equivalent to 30% MND (you probably meant what it is currently, "HP restored by" 30% which is again more than 30% MND).

No. Healers heal, my abilities should help me do just that. We already have Cleric Stance to boost damage, it's enough.

lol how about just boosting stone/stone2/aero/aero2?

This thread is funny.

- WHM beats SCH at burst. This isn't rocket science people. Most things that require burst will be dealt with before you can even finish casting our DoT's. SMN's and SCH's burst is dependent on having a nearby mob pre-doted and baning to them right away. Also, you don't need 4+ mobs for holy to do more damage, even just 2 enemies is usually a DPS increase for WHM (Hint: Bane doesn't enter the picture until the third GCD).

- Spending 3 stacks on Energy Drain is usually a bad idea. If you are maximizing DPS on any given serious situation, both WHM and SCH are in C.stance DPSing, and the SCH is healing through Lustrate to bypass C.Stance Penalty. I mean there are cases where you'll sometimes be able to spend all 3, but basing your entire argument on an extreme case isn't helping your credibility.

- The original premise of the thread, to boost MND by 30% is ridiculous. Lower Healing and increased damage (Both AoE and Single target) is NOT needed.

By the way, the reason why most progression groups have the SCH dps and the WHM heal during fights has nothing to do with their actual DPS potential. It is done because Bio, Bio II and Shadowflare can't miss, whereas everything on the WHM arsenal can.

So 2.3 patch notes came out today.
And guess what got buffed?
Here's a hint.
It's Presence of Mind.
+5 seconds duration, and cooldown shortened from 300 to 150 seconds.
Thanks SE :)

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

30% damage is way more than 30% MND. 30% healing potency is equivalent to 30% MND (you probably meant what it is currently, "HP restored by" 30% which is again more than 30% MND).

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30% damage potency & healing potency.

Mind will continue to increase making for gross imbalancing under this suggestion.

Potency being static is a far better route.

Why are we even discussing WHM DPS? I thought they were supposed to be healing...

When expansion comes out cnj will learn Aeroga aka Aero3 and stone3 which will destroy whatever arcanist get.