More Raid content please!

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

IF the devs made solo player content and called them raids... would that also be a raid? Would a scientist saying the sky is Brown make it true?

They need to stop calling them raids. They by the definition of the term RAID is not a single party in a mmo.

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This has to be the dumbest thing in this thread. A raid is simply a dungeon of heightened difficulty to be tackled by a group of players. Every games defined that size differently. To somehow compare flexible language conditions with the scientific definition of the color blue and the wavelength of the photons that create it is completely ridiculous.

Seriously people. Raids are simply tough dungeons. They are not necessarily multi party at all. This insane definition you have is unrealistic and doesn't for a second take into consideration the differences between games and it doesn't allow for developers to try new things. This isn't the only game to have single party raids either.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

FOUR 10 minute 8 man events is not nearly enough raid content. Personally I'm hanging out until the expansion but if it isn't bumped up to 10+ I'm definitely done. If there aren't LARGER raids I may anyway. I'm tired of having to demand 100% raid attendance from a team to accomplish anything and an 8 man group can't realistically have a 3-4 man bench. That is half a group.

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Ooh an instance with 80+ players? That ought to be interesting

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

The only raid in XIV is CT1 currently and CT2 to come.

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And Frontlines

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This has to be the dumbest thing in this thread. A raid is simply a dungeon of heightened difficulty to be tackled by a group of players. Every games defined that size differently. To somehow compare flexible language conditions with the scientific definition of the color blue and the wavelength of the photons that create it is completely ridiculous.

Seriously people. Raids are simply tough dungeons. They are not necessarily multi party at all. This insane definition you have is unrealistic and doesn't for a second take into consideration the differences between games and it doesn't allow for developers to try new things. This isn't the only game to have single party raids either.

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Want to tell me where you got that definition? Because I have been playing mmos along time and a not in WoW, EQ, XI, Aion, L1, L2 did anyone ever consider a raid "hard content". That is not what a raid is at all.

Yes some raids are hard and normally are the penticle of endgame. But in all game mentioned low man endgame content that was difficult in all other mmos I mentioned never called them raids.

So you're telling me that gaming isnt an ever evolving field? Mmo's today are identical to the ones 15 years ago? Games change. The genre changes. Definitions change. It's called innovation and differentiation so that every game isn't the same. If the genre was so stagnant it wound be boring. You need to broaden your personal definition. It's limiting. Coil is a raid, and you need to find a way to live with that fact. What you specifically want us multi party raids. If this thread had been more specific on that point instead of acting like coil doesn't count due to personal definitions then a better discussion may have been had. All this exclusion of coil and outdated definitions are nothing but a distraction from what would have been a more interesting conversation. Lastly, if more group raids is what this is all about then it makes the thread seem simply ill timed since another one come out next week.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Ooh an instance with 80+ players? That ought to be interesting

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I could be wrong but....I think he means 10+ 8 man events, not an event with 80 players. His following statements imply that he'd like 16 man content ideally, but knows that even wishing for it, it's most likely to remain a wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming)

"A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster."

4/8-man is pretty standard and prevalent throughout the game - Story missions, Primals, basic dungeons use 4/8-man parties.

Coil really isn't a raid. If it wasn't for the trash Coil would be exactly the same as Primal fights.

Thank you all for so adamantly quoting Wikipedia because we all know that definitions never change and Wikipedia is always correct..........

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Originally Posted by Dhex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming).

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Language and definitions are organic things that change. Posting a wiki article isn't a statement of fact. Also, pay attention to the section on how raiding was taking to much time and laws were being passed to limit game time. FFXIV could be seen as the next progression for raids that take this into account and is trying to find a more realistic method. This is especially important done the China release is on the horizon. As I said this rigid definition leaves no room for innovation or positive change.

Fun fact time! That will page was edited "Last edited 8 months ago by an anonymous user." For those of us paying attention that was before FFXIV added CT. So even that page seems to have counted it since it is listed in the games with raids section. Kind pokes holes through wiki as a good source doesn't it?

For the sake of baseline definition I think the quoted portion is relevant.

Raiding is something large scale.

Coil is not large scale.

It's wrong anyway.

<goes and edits Wikipedia>

SEs game SEs rules, they can call 1 person content raids if they wanted to XD

Slightly off topic, but would love to see an extreme version of Praetorium, made to the difficulty of SCoB with relevant rewards, or at least a raid dungeon against Garleans.

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Originally Posted by Archulak

Thank you all for so adamantly quoting Wikipedia because we all know that definitions never change and Wikipedia is always correct..........

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You forgot adding this smiley:rolleyes:

So much logistical and organizational drama about getting 8 people to commit and you want more? Are you kidding me?

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Originally Posted by skaterger

So much logistical and organizational drama about getting 8 people to commit and you want more? Are you kidding me?

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As a guild leader I can easily say the logistical drama in guilds is because it is lowman. You are deciding who you leave out every week. With more people less are left out therefor less drama. Organizing for 16-24 people is a joke compaired to organizing for multiple groups of 8.

Yea it will be harder for pugs to function, but it will be better for guild. Good trade off.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

So much logistical and organizational drama about getting 8 people to commit and you want more? Are you kidding me?

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I still have nightmares from organizing 80 in EQ1 >.<

Eight people is a good size for endgame, it stops turning the raid leaders job and responsibility into a logistic nightmare XD Been there, done that, no thanks to doing it again ^_^

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Seriously people. Raids are simply tough dungeons. They are not necessarily multi party at all. This insane definition you have is unrealistic and doesn't for a second take into consideration the differences between games and it doesn't allow for developers to try new things. This isn't the only game to have single party raids either.

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Difficulty is irrelevant. Raids are MULTI-PARTY events. That is the very definition of a raid : more than one party/group.

I would not call Crystal Tower hard. Would you? Its not "tough" at all. Yet it is the raid in FF14.

Binding Coil, whether talking turn 1 or turn 9, is a single-Full Party event. One is not more than one, therefore Binding Coil is NOT a raid.

FF14 needs some more RAIDS, and it needs TOP END raids, not "a step below top end" raids.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

As a guild leader I can easily say the logistical drama in guilds is because it is lowman. You are deciding who you leave out every week. With more people less are left out therefor less drama. Organizing for 16-24 people is a joke compaired to organizing for multiple groups of 8.

Yea it will be harder for pugs to function, but it will be better for guild. Good trade off.

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Well, dont do yourself. Alocate officers to run and organise their own 8 peeps. Thats what we do and makes life a lot simpler.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Difficulty is irrelevant. Raids are MULTI-PARTY events. That is the very definition of a raid : more than one party/group.

I would not call Crystal Tower hard. Would you? Its not "tough" at all. Yet it is the raid in FF14.

Binding Coil, whether talking turn 1 or turn 9, is a single-Full Party event. One is not more than one, therefore Binding Coil is NOT a raid.

FF14 needs some more RAIDS, and it needs TOP END raids, not "a step below top end" raids.

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Your definition is irrelevant to SEs definition of what consists of a raid in their game :) They even list in achievements 4 man dungeons as raids.

Successfully complete 20 unique instanced dungeon raids or trials.

Note, dungeon raids, not dungeons, raids. You can complete those achievements without touching a single 8 person or 24 person alliance dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

I still have nightmares from organizing 80 in EQ1 >.<

Eight people is a good size for endgame, it stops turning the raid leaders job and responsibility into a logistic nightmare XD Been there, done that, no thanks to doing it again ^_^

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LoY had a raid, but no one bothered with it. LDoN had a couple of raid events, but few bothered with those. Time was the last real expansion that had 72 man raids, though I do remember 100+ people doing Rallos Zek in PoTactics as two raids. Starting with Gates of Discord, they cut the instance size down to 54. So even though the raid itself can still hold up to 72, only 9 of those 12 groups can enter the raid instances of the past ten years or so.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Your definition is irrelevant to SEs definition of what consists of a raid in their game :)

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They're wrong. What else can I say? They mislabel Coil so they can erroneously claim they have end-game raids, when they do not.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

They're wrong. What else can I say? They mislabel Coil so they can erroneously claim they have end-game raids, when they do not.

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No, this may be hard to swallow, but you are wrong :) A raid in FFXIV is whatever SE decide to call a raid. Not what anyone or anything else says. They could call them potatoes if they wanted.

They could CALL a raid a potato, they could CALL a group event a potato, doesn't magically turn raid or group events into starchy root vegetables though.

They CALL coil a raid - doesn't turn a single group event into a multi-group event though.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

They could CALL a raid a potato, they could CALL a group event a potato, doesn't magically turn raid or group events into starchy root vegetables though.

They CALL coil a raid - doesn't turn a single group event into a multi-group event though.

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Doesn't mean that a multi-group event is a raid though, no matter what YOU choose to call it. Kind of fun using your line of reasoning, however flawed it is.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Your definition is irrelevant to SEs definition of what consists of a raid in their game :) They even list in achievements 4 man dungeons as raids.

Successfully complete 20 unique instanced dungeon raids or trials.

Note, dungeon raids, not dungeons, raids. You can complete those achievements without touching a single 8 person or 24 person alliance dungeon.

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The lack of commas does not make it "dungeon raids, or trials" .. it makes it "dungeon raids or dungeon trials" - the word "dungeon" applying to both. So, yes, you can complete it without touching a raid. Besides, with all the typos they've had in patch notes, and other areas, do you really expect that they would have caught it if they had unintentionally left out the commas there that would have turned it into "dungeons, raids, or trials"?

On a side note, not a single person in Aion calls the alliance / league fights "raids". I played Aion for 3 years and that's not what they called. Eternal Bastion, a 24 man alliance instance, is called..EB. No one calls it raid. "You ready for EB today? How about IS (a 12 man instance). It's all X-man instance. So if you went into Aion and started calling everything a raid, they'd look at you funny then tell you to go back to WoW (lol).

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Doesn't mean that a multi-group event is a raid though, no matter what YOU choose to call it. Kind of fun using your line of reasoning, however flawed it is.

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Well, a multi-group event is the very definition of raid, as established by countless MMO's out there. Its not *my* definition, it is *the* definition. Or, if you prefer, it is my interpretation of the "event designed for a force larger than one group" definition. Either way, a one group event such as Binding Coil is not a raid, regardless of what *one* company chooses to mislabel it in order to promote a falsehood.

That's why I'm saying that FF14 needs more than *just* Crystal Tower for its raids!

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

As a guild leader I can easily say the logistical drama in guilds is because it is lowman. You are deciding who you leave out every week. With more people less are left out therefor less drama. Organizing for 16-24 people is a joke compaired to organizing for multiple groups of 8.

Yea it will be harder for pugs to function, but it will be better for guild. Good trade off.

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Don't get me wrong. I would like to see larger raids but I think it would be next to impossible with the types of players in the game. I was there in wow during 25 man and 40 man raids and they used the DKP system where they had early attendance bonus and all that jazz. The difference though is that players then seemed to have a fixed schedule and log on more consistently. Our raids were almost always impromptu when we have enough people but I have never seen that happen in ffxiv. That is why you see statics are almost mandatory in this game while that accept is almost non existent in wow imo

Another thing you mentioned about players sitting out is also different here in ffxiv. Because there are more bosses in wow, players are more willing to sit out for raids there than here. If you have little time to play and you have to pf if you have to sit out for someone else, I don't think anyone would be happy with that.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

The lack of commas does not make it "dungeon raids, or trials" .. it makes it "dungeon raids or dungeon trials" - the word "dungeon" applying to both. So, yes, you can complete it without touching a raid. Besides, with all the typos they've had in patch notes, and other areas, do you really expect that they would have caught it if they had unintentionally left out the commas there that would have turned it into "dungeons, raids, or trials"?

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Yes, I do think they would have a caught it. Dungeon raids and dungeon, raids are totally different. Nowhere does it mention trials as dungeons either.


Or you are saying they should change trials to dungeons now?

What ever they want to call a raid is a raid in FFXIV ARR. Whatever other games want to call raids is irrelevant. Get over it.

Heres a dictionary definition of Raid, not Wikipedia:

1. A surprise attack by a small armed force.
2. A sudden forcible entry into a place by police: a raid on a gambling den.
3. An entrance into another's territory for the purpose of seizing goods or valuables.

Take special note of the first definition.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

snip

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It is not "the" definition no matter the lengths you go to try and say otherwise because it isn't the universal definition. If you can link a source where countless MMO communities came together and decided what it is that defines a raid then by all means please provide it. Until such point that you manage to do this, SE calls Coils a raid, therefore it is a raid. You have CT and Coil as raids in this game. Better learn to enjoy them until such time that they decide to add more.

Coil is a raid get over it sheesh, should i go edit it into wikipedia so you will believe it?.

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Originally Posted by Ispen

Coil is a raid get over it sheesh, should i go edit it into wikipedia so you will believe it?.

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Yes please, but I;d advise getting an Army. With thus guy you're likely to get an edit war on your hand.

What happened to this thread being about adding more raid content? It devolved into an argument about the definition of raid >_>

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Yes, I do think they would have a caught it. Dungeon raids and dungeon, raids are totally different. Nowhere does it mention trials as dungeons either.


Or you are saying they should change trials to dungeons now?

What ever they want to call a raid is a raid in FFXIV ARR. Whatever other games want to call raids is irrelevant. Get over it.

Heres a dictionary definition of Raid, not Wikipedia:

1. A surprise attack by a small armed force.
2. A sudden forcible entry into a place by police: a raid on a gambling den.
3. An entrance into another's territory for the purpose of seizing goods or valuables.

Take special note of the first definition.

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Don't know which dictionary you looked that up in. But, with the way that it took a lot of common usage for some words (such as "google", both the name of a website for looking stuff up online and the root of "googling it" or looking something up online) to even get into the dictionaries, it is hardly surprising to see the MMO-specific definition not there. That, actually, is why the not-always-correct Wikipedia was referenced earlier in this thread, and slighted in the quoted post.

What, did you think the definition of "friending someone" was in the dictionary before Facebook became popular? Did you think that MMO's are so popular as to influence Miriam-Webster's or any other dictionary into adding MMO-specific definitions into it?

No. The notion of a raid being multi-group content came about because that is what they were initially, and what they are today. Coil is not, contrary to what SE calls it, multi-group content. As such, FF14 has no end-game raids, and it needs them.

Y'all're getting too caught up in the definition of raiding (is y'all even in the online dictionary you used?) to understand the real issue here : FF14 needs more raids!

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

What happened to this thread being about adding more raid content? It devolved into an argument about the definition of raid >_>

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Of course it did.

They are saying that because SE mistakenly calls Coil a raid, the game *does* have end-game raid content, and doesn't need to address that lack.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Of course it did.

They are saying that because SE mistakenly calls Coil a raid, the game *does* have end-game raid content, and doesn't need to address that lack.

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It isn't a mistake. Coil is a raid. Now you can argue for MORE raid content, but to say there isn't ANY except for CT is simple ignorance, in the face of truth, on your part.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

What happened to this thread being about adding more raid content? It devolved into an argument about the definition of raid >_>

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Because the premise of his initial post completely disregards Coil as a raid. In one of my earlier posts I was all for the implementing of additional raid content on top of Coils and CT. It devolved into what we have now because Roth is trying to argue his definition of raid against what SE defines it for this game.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Because the premise of his initial post completely disregards Coil as a raid. In one of my earlier posts I was all for the implementing of additional raid content on top of Coils and CT. It devolved into what we have now because Roth is trying to argue his definition of raid against what SE defines it for this game.

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And the way he does it makes me think that had this thread been about defining religious terms instead, he would have been quoted in FSTDT.

they should keep the size, i don't mind 8 member party raids, it's actually more meaningful than throwing a bunch of bodies at a boss.

I definitely think there needs to be some larger scale raids. 24 mans would be epic and there is tons of thing that they can do for it.