[Opinion] Myth Expenditures are Absurd

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

If they haven't gotten their animus yet, they're likely not speedrunning/grinding brayflox to begin with, and as such any change don't really affect them.

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Unless of course they don't have their Atma yet and are grinding Brayflox to cap Soldiery and earn Myth for alts.

The "grind" is fine. I made around 500 myth yesterday just by doing rolettes and a couple of Titan HM to get the weapon, and I didn't even do beast tribe quests, or maps. That's a book every 3 days, seems more than reasonable to me. As for the Alexandrite, you're guaranteed one every day with Roulettes, and there are other ways to obtain more.

The only thing I don't like is myth for mats. Maybe they could introduce a new currency/tokens for DoH/DoL for turning in HQ items or something.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

The "grind" is fine. I made around 500 myth yesterday just by doing rolettes and a couple of Titan HM to get the weapon, and I didn't even do beast tribe quests, or maps. That's a book every 3 days, seems more than reasonable to me. As for the Alexandrite, you're guaranteed one every day with Roulettes, and there are other ways to obtain more..

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The issue is it's the same crap all over again.

Alexandrite might have a roulette but you need 75 of the things, and the materia to use. If you were to purchase all of them with mytho that would be over 4x as much Mythology as is needed to buy all 9 books, that's OVER 1000 Brayflox runs. Now yes, that is the extreme end, but even if you were doing say, 1 daily, 750 mytho a day (-50 from roulette), it would still take over 5 weeks of grinding the same trash, the same dungeon, over and over and over again, after you've already done it for the Animus.

And ways for obtaining more... Yeah great we can do the Atma farm infinitely!

It's insulting to the players. They saw the feedback thread, which got like 100k views + 1k posts, with the majority of posts questioning the heavy amount of mythology and RNG with Atma, and then they implement the exact same system for Alexandrite but worse, even with the daily, because you need so much of the Alexandrite, and then the materia/gil on top, it's worse, so, so much worse.

The only thing I can compliment them on with Novus is the choice, despite it not even being a good one. We can farm yet more mytho if we don't want to deal with FATE RNG. That's about it. Oh and the mysterious maps are actually pretty fun and challenging when solo. Unfortunately because you lose the map if you die that's been nullified as we go in groups for safety.

How is 5 weeks long? That's about what it took me for Atma and I didn't even work at it, I just dedicated 40mins-1hour of FATES every day (when I could). This is even better because I'd be doing Roulettes regardless. And as for more ways, I was thinking about Hunts, no way I am doing FATES again - but you know, it's another option for those who wants to do it. I mean, except for the ink, you're not required to spend a single myth, aren't you? I don't see how this is bad.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I mean, except for the ink, you're not required to spend a single myth, aren't you? I don't see how this is bad.

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I think people are overlooking this fact intentionally or are just deaf to reason at this point. It is not, in any way, required that you farm Myth once you have acquired your 3 inks.

once 2.3 comes out it won't be as bad but seeing as the whole point of 2.5(or 2.85) was the novious, not implementing the "real" way now and making players wait till 2.3 is annoying. The people with animus should be finishing their novious right now and yet we are just starting the quest, but hey that's an MMO. this whole 2.8 patch has players saying whats the point instead of yippie, they should have just finished 2.3 faster. The one free one a day argument has no validity for several reasons, one being because 90% of the time you get brayflox, and you get brayflox with lazy people who don't play their class right, not using skills, no flash/overpower, auto fairy/eos. I don't care what your ilvl is just don't be lazy. Second because this is supposed to be a merit based weapon and the free alex isn't merit based it's giving it to you, I personally would rather have it so people have to actually work(not saying that I don't enjoy it).

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

once 2.3 comes out it won't be as bad but seeing as the whole point of 2.5(or 2.85) was the novious, not implementing the "real" way now and making players wait till 2.3 is annoying.

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You can do DR: Expert with a 4-man premade party if you want to. Meaning you don't have to rely on bad people.
And the quest gives you a map, not the alexandrite directly. If you do the map solo, it's not faceroll easy.
The "real" way was likely fate-based alexandrites ONLY and got delayed from 2.25 to 2.28 to add the map way as well.
2.3 will just add ANOTHER way of obtaining the alexandrite (or possibly the map).

I have done 6 maps and so far, I summon titan, dot, bain, fester and one 2 of the maps I had to dodge a few things; to me this is face roll easy. The hunt system coming in 2.3 would be the real way since it seems to have story/lore elements associated with it.

Who said it's supposed to be merit based? And why do you care what other people get?

I don't think the problem is about the costs or myth rewards. it's about the ways to obtain them, the only way to obtain a decent amount of tomes is running dungeons, and when doing dungeons bray 2 bosses is the most effective, we need viable ways to get myths and even soldys out of instanced content, because a lot of ppl is getting tired, this instance tome grind is not only damaging the game systems (SR, bad conduct, elitism) the game is also losing subs because of this.

Keep the price and add more sources, the grind will be the same but it'll be fun instead of annoying. And don't even mention treasure maps or daily quests, that's far from being viable.

Backloading the myth and doubling the end boss clear is a bad idea. People would just fish for in progress queues and we would have withdraw mania again while people fish for in progress while doing FATEs. It's probably one of the reasons why they decided that the end boss doesn't give myth and are reluctant to change it.

The truth is Daily Hunts, the real meat of the Novus quest, aren't here yet for another month or so, another truth is the very first relic quest got a lot of steps right, and the 1.0 relic quest got a couple more steps even more right. These elements are group participation and a clear set of steps in a clear path of progression, with a clear reward including bits of lore for each time you complete a step, and progression depending only on how much time you were willing to spend on each step helped by your skill as a player.

Sure you can group up for FATEs for either Atma and Alexandrites and some book objectives which is great, but it's not on the same level of what the first relic quests presented. In the case of the 1.0 quest, sure it had its own share of grinds like Hamlet if you didn't supply, the melds and materia RNG in itself, farming beastmen currency and SBing your weapon, but other steps were a bit more balanced and even Hamlet required a good party and some sort of skill to get the required points, which also involved DoL and DoH, and beastmen strongholds themselves were more dangerous for both SB and currency farming, not to mention each step was unique. If you were good, you didn't have to repeat them over and over, you knew exactly when it would end and what it would take, with almost no luck element involved aside from the first three I mentioned.

In 2.0's case the steps are even more clear, the only feedback about it being too "easy" is because there aren't really that many steps compared to the 1.0 which is both good and bad, it took out some of the grind from 1.0, the only real grind being 900 philosophy tomes or I guess less than 300 myth nowadays, but it also took out more unique steps like beastmen NMs, levequests and a couple more dungeons, still the rest of the steps are clear and you also don't have to repeat them over and over if you're good. It also was only "hard" for some because there wasn't a proper Party Finder and both Chimera and Hydra weren't in the Duty Finder, and of course server latency because some regions still don't have proper servers.

Now of course the Novus quest has some sort of semblance of this, you know it takes exactly 75 Alexandrites to complete whether the meld fails or not because you don't lose them, and you get a free one a day from expert roulettes so that's 75 days to complete the quest if you choose to opt out of both FATEs and myth farming, if you opt in however that's potentially less time if you're really lucky or want to grind the same dungeon over and over which that's the main issue here. Once again, the first relic quests didn't have this level of repetition for a single step aside from the mentioned grinds, it had more unique steps that revolved around parties, and everyone involved in them helped progress go much faster, and in some steps it helped progress at all.

Sure feel free to throw in a "well if you want proper party content why not do Coil or Extremes?" that's not the point, people are already doing that for their alt classes or even their mains because it's just faster, also feel free to throw in a "well casuals don't do Coil or Extremes so the relic quest shifted to a casual focus for them, how is that bad?" at this point it'd be faster for so called casuals to look up videos, form learning parties and skip the grind. Even then, ignoring the grind still won't change its flawed design, it could be more balanced but the easy and lazy solution is to over inflate the requirements needed for a single step instead of designing more unique steps, I think they could look back on their previous quests and see what worked and just avoid this repetition and focus more on party content, especially because the game is lacking on real open world group content, FATEs and treasure hunts not needing much group coordination, and especially more because group synergy is a big element of Second Coil that's also a current issue. I think more party content for the relic quests would help people learn to work as a party, it's an MMO after all, just don't make the party coordination as unfun and super synced as in Second Coil because that'd be bad too.

@Vaer, well I have created posts with regards to implementing withdrawal penalties... it needs to happen & they're far overdue on it.

That would solve in-progress issues, you'd just have to take what you get... and if you're lucky & draw a final boss queue, good for you. No harm off my back you were a Good Samaritan & desired to see a fail group finish strong, thus reaping the reward.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

What would that accomplish in your guys' minds?

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For me, I could get myth during the week, and work on books occassionally and/or on the weekend. As it stands, I have to go back and forth so I don't cap myth and then dailies go to waste.

@Roris, I'm aware Daily Hunts are coming but the bigger meat of the issue is Myth bloat.

I'm glad they're adding more methods of obtaining Alexanderite, but I'm talking mostly about Myth expenses... I'd like ever to be able to collect some i90 AF gear, etc.

There's two things i dont like about the current system:

1) Just like the original topic starter, the myth costs. Already looking at 338 runs of Brayflox for Animus. It's just crazy. Could / should easily have been reduced by a factor of 4...

2) I spend my soldiery on my Paladin, but i have other jobs to gear up, which i usually spend Myths on for i90 gear... Which i now cannot do for the entire duration of the Animus and Novus grind... So alternative means of getting Books would be great, or alternative means of getting Darklight and/or Myth gear would be even better, excluding throwing them into dungeons... simply re-instating Philo tomes would help already...

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Originally Posted by Surian

Which i now cannot do for the entire duration of the Animus and Novus grind...

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A quick point here:
It is your decision to use myth during the Novus upgrade process. The ink buy-in aside, there is no required myth expenditure during the Novus line. I'm getting tired of people thinking that the map cost is inappropriate when it's absolutely fine as-is an optional method to speed up the process.

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Originally Posted by Enepttastic

No. Animus book should honestly have something BESIDES myth as its gating mechanic. Even then, removing a mere 300(1/5) of the cost per book isn't much of a change.

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You're kidding, right?
300 myth * 9 = 2700 myth
2700 myth / 50 myth per run = 54 runs of Brayflox

Assuming you are in a farm group that can go for 54 runs straight with no bio breaks, member replacements, mistakes...etc. @ 7 minutes per run,
54 * 7 = 378 minutes / 60 minutes/hr = 6.3 hours

I have myth coming out of my pockets and I've never done a speedrun. I don't know how you people spend yours, but tomes are already incredibly easy to get. You can get to 800 just by doing roulettes, beast tribes and a couple of more dungeon/maps. So there, you have 2 alexandrites already every day.

Go help out a friend, do your favourite dungeon, run Coil T1-5 a couple of times to gear your alt jobs! You'll be full of myth before you know it, too. If you're gonna look at everything in terms of Brayflox speedruns, of course it's sound boring, but that's your choice.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

@Roris, I'm aware Daily Hunts are coming but the bigger meat of the issue is Myth bloat.

I'm glad they're adding more methods of obtaining Alexanderite, but I'm talking mostly about Myth expenses... I'd like ever to be able to collect some i90 AF gear, etc.

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Oh I agree and that's kinda what I was saying, the game currently focuses way too much on both gathering myth and RNG for relic progression while the old relic quests focused on a set of unique steps. Personally I wouldn't mind if the relic quest doubled or even had ten times as many steps if they all were more involved and offered unique challenges instead of just boiling down to myth farming and RNG.

As it stands now Zenith is one step: 900 myth, Atma is one step: RNG, Animus is two steps: 1500x9 myth and the same core set of objectives per book x 9, Novus is two steps: 1.5k myth per scroll and 75 Alexandrites with daily, RNG and myth methods to obtain them, not mentioning RNG materia. It's all myth and RNG, that's why it just turns into a boring lazily designed grind instead of an interesting and engaging journey to obtain a cool weapon.

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Originally Posted by Roris

The truth is Daily Hunts... -snip-

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Hit the nail on the head.

This:

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Originally Posted by Roris

The truth is Daily Hunts, the real meat of the Novus quest, aren't here yet for another month or so, another truth is the very first relic quest got a lot of steps right, and the 1.0 relic quest got a couple more steps even more right. These elements are group participation and a clear set of steps in a clear path of progression, with a clear reward including bits of lore for each time you complete a step, and progression depending only on how much time you were willing to spend on each step helped by your skill as a player.

Sure you can group up for FATEs for either Atma and Alexandrites and some book objectives which is great, but it's not on the same level of what the first relic quests presented. In the case of the 1.0 quest, sure it had its own share of grinds like Hamlet if you didn't supply, the melds and materia RNG in itself, farming beastmen currency and SBing your weapon, but other steps were a bit more balanced and even Hamlet required a good party and some sort of skill to get the required points, which also involved DoL and DoH, and beastmen strongholds themselves were more dangerous for both SB and currency farming, not to mention each step was unique. If you were good, you didn't have to repeat them over and over, you knew exactly when it would end and what it would take, with almost no luck element involved aside from the first three I mentioned.

In 2.0's case the steps are even more clear, the only feedback about it being too "easy" is because there aren't really that many steps compared to the 1.0 which is both good and bad, it took out some of the grind from 1.0, the only real grind being 900 philosophy tomes or I guess less than 300 myth nowadays, but it also took out more unique steps like beastmen NMs, levequests and a couple more dungeons, still the rest of the steps are clear and you also don't have to repeat them over and over if you're good. It also was only "hard" for some because there wasn't a proper Party Finder and both Chimera and Hydra weren't in the Duty Finder, and of course server latency because some regions still don't have proper servers.

Now of course the Novus quest has some sort of semblance of this, you know it takes exactly 75 Alexandrites to complete whether the meld fails or not because you don't lose them, and you get a free one a day from expert roulettes so that's 75 days to complete the quest if you choose to opt out of both FATEs and myth farming, if you opt in however that's potentially less time if you're really lucky or want to grind the same dungeon over and over which that's the main issue here. Once again, the first relic quests didn't have this level of repetition for a single step aside from the mentioned grinds, it had more unique steps that revolved around parties, and everyone involved in them helped progress go much faster, and in some steps it helped progress at all.

Sure feel free to throw in a "well if you want proper party content why not do Coil or Extremes?" that's not the point, people are already doing that for their alt classes or even their mains because it's just faster, also feel free to throw in a "well casuals don't do Coil or Extremes so the relic quest shifted to a casual focus for them, how is that bad?" at this point it'd be faster for so called casuals to look up videos, form learning parties and skip the grind. Even then, ignoring the grind still won't change its flawed design, it could be more balanced but the easy and lazy solution is to over inflate the requirements needed for a single step instead of designing more unique steps, I think they could look back on their previous quests and see what worked and just avoid this repetition and focus more on party content, especially because the game is lacking on real open world group content, FATEs and treasure hunts not needing much group coordination, and especially more because group synergy is a big element of Second Coil that's also a current issue. I think more party content for the relic quests would help people learn to work as a party, it's an MMO after all, just don't make the party coordination as unfun and super synced as in Second Coil because that'd be bad too.

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and This:

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Originally Posted by Renik

I don't think the problem is about the costs or myth rewards. it's about the ways to obtain them, the only way to obtain a decent amount of tomes is running dungeons, and when doing dungeons bray 2 bosses is the most effective, we need viable ways to get myths and even soldys out of instanced content, because a lot of ppl is getting tired, this instance tome grind is not only damaging the game systems (SR, bad conduct, elitism) the game is also losing subs because of this.

Keep the price and add more sources, the grind will be the same but it'll be fun instead of annoying. And don't even mention treasure maps or daily quests, that's far from being viable.

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Need to be restated and I highly suggest the development team at least take their time to read and consider it.

The above points are really excellent...

You seem to be under the impression that 1 daily hunt == 1 alexandrite, or more...
We'll get a new currency from daily hunt and that can be used to buy alexandrite, but we do not know how much we get and how much alexandrites will cost.

I mean sure, let's wait and see with Daily Hunts. They sound awesome... but I'm talking more than Alexanderite, I'm talking myth expenditure to the expense of secondary relic upgrades, to the expense of myth gear, etc.

It's just a ton of myth bloat with too few alternatives I think (overall).

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Originally Posted by Gesser

I mean sure, let's wait and see with Daily Hunts. They sound awesome... but I'm talking more than Alexanderite, I'm talking myth expenditure to the expense of secondary relic upgrades, to the expense of myth gear, etc.

It's just a ton of myth bloat with too few alternatives I think (overall).

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I believe it was said that you could use the Daily Hunt currency to buy what's currently myth gear.
Combined with increasing myth rewards in 2.3, 2.35 and 2.38 as well as the gear that drops from Syrcus Tower, I wouldn't worry too much about the gear part of the equation.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

I believe it was said that you could use the Daily Hunt currency to buy what's currently myth gear.
Combined with increasing myth rewards in 2.3, 2.35 and 2.38 as well as the gear that drops from Syrcus Tower, I wouldn't worry too much about the gear part of the equation.

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True I forgot about being able to purchase Myth gear with Hunt Tokens. So long as the newest dungeons are at least equally viable to Brayflox speed runs... then that could work.

But still not enough options, just open a Seal/Soldiery path of purchase honestly imo.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

True I forgot about being able to purchase Myth gear with Hunt Tokens. So long as the newest dungeons are at least equally viable to Brayflox speed runs... then that could work.

But still not enough options, just open a Seal/Soldiery path of purchase honestly imo.

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Seals I can agree with. Soldiery... eventually, but not yet.
For seals I'd rather be able to buy specific materia though. Could even limit it to the 7 types that can be infused on the Sphere Scrolls to not upset the crafter/gatherer materia economy.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Seals I can agree with. Soldiery... eventually, but not yet.
For seals I'd rather be able to buy specific materia though. Could even limit it to the 7 types that can be infused on the Sphere Scrolls to not upset the crafter/gatherer materia economy.

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Hopefully desynthing can yank material out of gear or create new materia! One can dream.

Novus is pay to win and helps the gilseller twice.

As some of you might know, gilsellers use a large quantity of bots running instances to spiritbond.
Materia prices rise, gilseller can sell more materia due to larger demand and can sell more gil due to larger demand.

Ofc you still need to farm alexandrites BUT:
- people that stupidly buy materia off the marketboard have more time to farm them.

So who has it easier and what is faster?
Farming mats to craft tons of gear to spiritbond or the people that buy gil and materia?

Should be obvious that people using gilsellers have a easier time completing novus.

If SE just used some sort of quest materia thats bound and untradeable then everything wouldnt be as pay to win-ish.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Add alternative purchasing for Alexanderite (e.g. 200 Soldiery & 25k Seals).

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2.3 Hunt

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Add alternative purchasing for Star-3 Mat's (e.g. 125 Soldiery & 15k Seals)

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. 2.4 when myth tomes vanish, myth gear get dropped from dungeons and myth mats can be buy with GC seals

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

The one thing that I'd like to see is not in your list.

Make it possible to purchase materia with GC seals.
Require GC rank x for materia rank y, and scale cost accordingly.

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You can buy materia with PvP points

If you mean the normal materias, that would crash the market. Nobody would buy anymore materia, nobody would spiritbound gears and nobody would buy gear. Why do you hate crafters?

Maybe if tier 1 cost 12k seal, tier 2 24k seal .... tier 4 50k seal. And of course with reduced meld chances for balancing.

It would be nice if SE would add End Game Guildleve, FATEs, and Guildhest that rewarded you with mytho. Also, as someone else said, exchange GC seals for mytho.