Honest concern about the place of RNG in new coil progression

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Originally Posted by Jinko

After 7 months of farming and not having the full set I am surprised you aren't burnt out and looking for something else to play :S

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Trust me, I am getting there. If 2.2 has the same terrible setup in 6-9 as turns 1-5 I won't stick around much longer. The only thing that keeps me playing are a few people that I like grouping with.

Reaper of Souls just came out and they've made a lot of great improvements to Diablo III. I may just bail and go play that instead. I know I'll get at least one legendary an hour, possibly more, and it should be useful for my current character :D

You're not guaranteed anything in the current coil.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Can someone share the link where he says that armour from tomes will be lower level than coil?

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Updates/page2
Q13: Will the item level be the same for equipment obtained from the Second Binding Coil of Bahamut and the equipment you can obtain with Allagan tomestones of soldiery?

A13: The item levels will not be necessarily be the same.

It's kind of vague like they normally are.

I don't want tokens for coil. There is enough stuff handed to us in this game. Sure wouldn't want the best gear handed to us also.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I don't want tokens for coil. There is enough stuff handed to us in this game. Sure wouldn't want the best gear handed to us also.

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you'd still have to, you know, beat coil lol.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Updates/page2
Q13: Will the item level be the same for equipment obtained from the Second Binding Coil of Bahamut and the equipment you can obtain with Allagan tomestones of soldiery?

A13: The item levels will not be necessarily be the same.

It's kind of vague like they normally are.

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Couldn't that just refer to the weapon level?

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Couldn't that just refer to the weapon level?

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You can get a weapon with soldiery tomes?

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

You can get a weapon with soldiery tomes?

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not certain, but as you will be able to upgrade your relic again it's a pretty good chance they will follow the same method of upgrading as they did with the zenith of your regular to +1 with myth tomes using the new tomes.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I don't want tokens for coil. There is enough stuff handed to us in this game. Sure wouldn't want the best gear handed to us also.

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People will burn out quicker with no lockout. They'll never do this and a token system isn't handing gear out to people.

You still have to kill the boss and its not guaranteed you'll still see the token for your class. The whole point is to put an end to 9+ items in a single chest. However, as we all know with ct you're probably going to still not see what you want. I did 30 runs of KB last week before seeing the tank chest.

I'm not even gonna get my hopes up for RNG to favor me in 2.2, took me months to get the few coil gear I have now. Five twin kills just to get my weap (actually not that bad thinking about it) and still haven't seen my healer glove (which I have at this point given up on)

RNG is the only thing I'm not looking forward to for the new coil gonna be doing a lot of praying to the gods of RNG before runs!

Excellent post, the very best I've seen on this topic yet. I agree with literally everything you have stated, OP. Yoshi pls!

Option 1: Take a per-peice account of everyone participating in the dungeon event. Minimize chances of appearance for items where A: No applicable class is present in the group B: all members of that class present are already wearing that peice and C: all members of that class are wearing something of higher Ilvl.

Option 2: Make endgame content crafted, and allow FC's and crafters to make strategic decisions to how endgame equipment is allocated.

Option 3: Do nothing, keep the XCOM RNG engine in play, and add sweetener to the tears before drinking while sitting atop piles of their money.


I'm pretty sure what the answer is almost always going to be.

So a lot of people have been unable to get a full set of allegan from BC and have had to fill in the missing slots with mythos gear. It's been about ~7 - 8 months and people have been unable to completely gear their mains with just allegan. I fear for the future of BC t6-9 if there is no tome counterpart...

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Lockout system with tokens. No lockouts with RNG. Lockouts with RNG = /wrists

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This.. This should've been the system from 2.0 to be honest.. Most MMOs I've played have a Token System for gear if they have a weekly lockout for end game raids and MMOs that lets players deal with RNG don't have lockouts.

I've seen 2 or 3 places where Yoshida was asked about Soldiery tome equipment and Coil2 gear and he's never outright said that the gear from tomes is 10 levels below Coil2. It seems likely that if gear drops from chests in Coil 2 the way we'd expect and you buy gear directly with tomes the way we expect then the Coil gear is better. It feels like there's at least one other element that he's purposely left out though, especially when he says the item levels between the two sets are 'not necessarily the same' instead of simply 'not the same'. I think they've added in another mechanic. I can't say what it might be, but I would personally like something like this:

Buy tome gear (similar prices/ acquisition to myth in 2.0) to upgrade gear over time -- item level 100
Acquire Coil gear through completing turns 6-9 (with luck!) -- item level 110
Acquire "upgrade tokens" through completing turns 6-9 (everyone gets 1 or, however many, for each boss kill)-- use X number of tokens to upgrade tome gear to 110.

Something like this would allow tome purchased gear to actually fill in the gaps when RNG is terrible without outfitting everyone who never steps foot inside Coil in the highest ilvl gear.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I don't want tokens for coil. There is enough stuff handed to us in this game. Sure wouldn't want the best gear handed to us also.

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I'm confused. Why do you think playing the game (i.e. killing bosses in Coil) is getting things "handed to us"? What more could you possibly expect people to do? Perform a song and dance on our heads while we juggle flaming chainsaws with our feet?

I hate range drops because I'm unlucky when it comes to even seeing them even appear. There's no balance and it hinders progression. Especially when I have to roll against anothers on a weekly basis and I know that there's more than a 50% chance that if I can't need without competition I wont win the piece unless the other person is way more unlucky than I, which is rare, or I'm lucky enough to roll 99.

I'm forced to have to get tome gear which I don't mind but the stat do make a difference especially when you need to hit acc requirements.

I loathe it but I've put up with it for nearly 12 years.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

the best reason is to make CT2 in June relevant.

if Coil, CT and Tomes all have a unique set of gear and two of those sets have to be Top Tier and 1 one of them has to be Top -10, you would want the Tomes to be the -10 set

it can't be Coil because Coil is the hardest content, it also shouldn't be CT because CT is on a 3 month delay.

whatever the Coil gear system is, get what you can from there. use Soldiery gear to bridge the gap or use Soldiery gear to help clear T5 for those who haven't yet. those who have really bad luck with Coil or can't even get the right groups to start clearing 6-9 will be able to get Top Tier gear from CT in 2.3

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Like CT can be 105.

We will find out in 2 days from now.

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Originally Posted by Arkghyom

We will find out in 2 days from now.

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Honestly I don't have faith that SE plans ahead. I got a feeling that 2.2 will be lockout with RNG, but may hear enough to make last part of Coil and futures raids to be token based.

This was my fear even since the announcement. After beating 1-5 for the last time in 2.1 last night I made a list of items we never saw in 5 months of T1-4 and 10 kills of T5. From T1 never saw the shield, T2 never saw visor of aiming, T4 never saw healing wrist or bard chest and from T5 while I am glad to say in 10 kills 6/8 members of our group did get primary weapons we never saw healing pants, bard belt, maiming feet, allagan bow or sch book. They should have set it so how garuda was in 1.0 every kill gets you a token and takes 10 tokens to get a piece of allagan from that turn, so each turn has their own token. Only time will tell but they could have at least loot locked it like CT but change it so you get 1 roll for the entire T6-9. If the right players tanks/healers and major dps(depends on encounter but going to go with stable dps such as smn/blm/mnk) get geared first then I can see T9 dying in at around a month.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

They should have set it so how garuda was in 1.0 every kill gets you a token and takes 10 tokens to get a piece of allagan from that turn, so each turn has their own token.

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This. /10char

Depending on the accuracy requirements and certain key pieces not dropping that offer the needed accuracy this could cause a major turn off overall in Coil part 2. I'm sure most groups had certain items that never dropped for them, like in our case Dragoon head, Paladin shoes or Summoner book (killing Twintania since early November so there have been a couple of kills). It wasn't too bad though since you could get Myth items to close the gap temporarily which is not the case with the upcoming patch assuming you're aiming for full i110.

As much as I despise gear hand outs and tokens. I have to agree with people wanting tokens simply due to how SE is desigining the content.

If they are going to negate the stuff every 6 months. Then they better make sure people can get all the gear from it within those 6 months.

Garenteed drops work well on content that is regularly negated which is what 100% of XIV's content is. Random Drops extends the life of content and works good for content that last years where your work is paid off for a long period not a short one.

Overall though token gear will not fix the underlying problem of endgame in this, the issue is everything is throw away content

If they do a token system they should do it like old school primals were in 1.0 like others have said. You can get the weapon/armor drop or a token. Takes 10 tokens to get that gear. Just make each turn of coil be a different token so you cannot spam 1 floor to get everything. So in 10 runs 2.5 months if you do not get your armor you want you can just buy it

I think one big problem that there are just too few bosses and too much gear spread out over the bosses, thus creating the low drop rate many players face. My suggestion would be to put some gear exclusive to tokens from bosses that can be redeemed from an npc and spread out the remaining loot among the bosses. This would allow a higher chance of a loot dropping from a boss at the same time collecting tokens that guarantee some kind of loot as long as you killed that boss.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

I think one big problem that there are just too few bosses and too much gear spread out over the bosses, thus creating the low drop rate many players face. My suggestion would be to put some gear exclusive to tokens from bosses that can be redeemed from an npc and spread out the remaining loot among the bosses. This would allow a higher chance of a loot dropping from a boss at the same time collecting tokens that guarantee some kind of loot as long as you killed that boss.

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I have to agree with this. Typically MMOs spread the loot over around 12 or so bosses per raid so RNG isn't as bad, but we only get 4 in FFXIV, they all have 18 drop loot tables making it very hard to get that 1 item you have been trying for. I still have missing like 3 allegan tank pieces that I wanted because they never drooped in the whole time the game has been out.

While I'm not happy about it either (only 1 main equip piece a few acessories in all my runs)

I know why it was done. To extend the life of content. Its why RNG exists. Sucks, but its
the case. It really all depends on how its done.

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Originally Posted by madolyn

theres a guy in my FC that just got his first DRG coil piece yesterday after 6 months.....

so yeah. thats the RNG i assume you're talking about lol.

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Poor sod. Our drg was decked out in like 3 runs...

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Originally Posted by Volsung

While I'm not happy about it either (only 1 main equip piece a few acessories in all my runs)

I know why it was done. To extend the life of content. Its why RNG exists. Sucks, but its
the case. It really all depends on how its done.

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When you extend life of content through RNG ong ear, but kill content before that through nerfs, it becomes insane though. As said, if you can't have the majority of people fully geared in 6month of dedicately doing the boss week after week, and you nerf everything and makes it useless after 6month, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Nice showing us full gearset that look cool if you have no chanve of ever having it all at once, at least before it is made irrelevant.

As others have said, nobody asks for having everything right at the start. But there needs to be some way to counteract bad luck, to ensure progression and completion of sets.

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Originally Posted by Casper

When you extend life of content through RNG ong ear, but kill content before that through nerfs, it becomes insane though. As said, if you can't have the majority of people fully geared in 6month of dedicately doing the boss week after week, and you nerf everything and makes it useless after 6month, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Nice showing us full gearset that look cool if you have no chanve of ever having it all at once, at least before it is made irrelevant.

As others have said, nobody asks for having everything right at the start. But there needs to be some way to counteract bad luck, to ensure progression and completion of sets.

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I never said it was justified. I even commented on how I thought it sucked.

Not thrilled that Coil gear will be better because of rng. It's just gonna screw people over. People will be making parties that that is 1 ilevel higher than what soldiery can give then you can't join till you're lucky enough to win a Coil piece.

I think there is a lot of panic here for nothing.

1) The loot system will be different somehow for turns 6-9, this was stated via the live letter.

2) Good players don't NEED gear with 10 ilvl more of stat allocations, the difference between a ilvl 110 hat and a 100 hat is very small. This example can be seen in the difference in CT gear versus a piece of myth gear. At most, the point difference per stat category (if both pieces have the same stats) are usually 2-3 points more or less. Also, I am willing to bet most BiS gear sets will use solidarity and ilvl 110 allagan gear. Highest item level =/= best gear for that slot.

In full patch notes released just now, there is no information regarding this issue (correct me if I'm wrong), so it might very well end up being like we fear.

If they don't change the RNG, I fully expect to see 90% MNK and DRG gear drops every raid once again... maybe I should convince the melee in my group to switch spots with me. :P

I killed twin 5 min before servers came down tonight, double mnk loot, and we didn't have anyone on mnk...............

Anyway, looks like there is i100 gear that can be upgraded to i110 somehow. Maybe it will come from tokens you obtain in 6-9? Guess we'll find out once somebody manages to beat turn 6.

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Originally Posted by Morgan_Leah

Anyway, looks like there is i100 gear that can be upgraded to i110 somehow.

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Hmm, what makes you believe this is the case?

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Originally Posted by KiraVaela

Hmm, what makes you believe this is the case?

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Because the naming convention. We know tome gear was set to be 100 and only 100 gear is named "Weathered xxx" and then a 110 item called "xxx" without the weathered prefix.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

Because the naming convention. We know tome gear was set to be 100 and only 100 gear is named "Weathered xxx" and then a 110 item called "xxx" without the weathered prefix.

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Ok, that makes sense, hopefully you are right.

There are "weathered" items listed as i100 and non-weathered versions at i110. I'm just guessing at this point but the patch also lists "Unidentified Allagan Tomestone" which state "Though they appear to be naught more than simple stones, Garlond Ironworks engineers insist they contain reams of invaluable information gathered by the lost Allagan Empire." The new Allagan tomestones of soldiery have the same note on them. So maybe you uses the unidentified allagan tomestones to upgrade the weathered gear? It's possible these only drop in coil 2.2 but idk.

Indeed, there are both allagan tomestones of soldiery and unidentified allagan tomestones. There are also i100 gear that are definitely the soldiery items, and are "weathered", and a normal version is 110.

The most likely, at this point, is that soldiery tomestone allow i100, allagan drop from coil, same as before, but on top of that we receive unidentified stone in coil (and only in coil), which are used to upgrade soldiery gear from 100 to 110. If it is indeed working like this, it is basically perfect. Can't wait for confirmation.

Maybe weathered means you have to spirit bond to 100% before you can obtain the i110 gear. Mayhaps this time around they decided to have the same gear come from both tomes and Coil but rather than just make it a different item like before they decided to make it weathered. Which is a strong i100 piece of gear but in order to unleash it's true potential you have to "level it up" and then maybe something or an occurrence will occur once it hit 100% spiritbond and it will automatically become the i110 piece of gear.