I hate the idea of Echo Buff. It should be part of some easy server not whole game.

Are you going to complete T1-5 with a maximum ilv of 90? Or are you going to overgear it as soon as you can?

"If you don't like it, turn it off."

I genuinely don't understand this mentality. I can turn it off, but that doesn't stop the other seven people in the party from abusing it and damaging my experience. I just enjoy being challenged by my games, that's why I play this over any other MMO on the market. I enjoy having that feeling of accomplishment after overcoming a difficult challenge.

I'm not trying to be elitist, I'm trying to be 'hardcore', I don't care about gear being more common, I'm just in it for the fun of being challenged. I feel like I'm being robbed of that solely because I seem to belong to a minority, and that's just not fair. Some of you talk about options, but what about my options? None of you can honestly say that this won't be used by everyone because it's no risk with high reward, which is fundamentally appealing. I won't be able to do Coil or possibly Titan HM by the time this patch drops, so that original experience is just lost to me forever now? It's not fair.

Toggle off Echo. Done you won't be affected by it. You don't want the buff you won't get it. You can find the others who don't want the buff too.

You don't think people run Titan HM at i80+ just to help people out? That's overgeared. People don't do AK at 80+ for fast tomes? People already burn through it fast.

ok
but i like echo buff bec thanks to those elitist i wont able to do any new ex and CoB

so what those so call hardcore gonna do?quit?and why wait till patch 2.2 to start do CoB?why not start now?
and you still need to get premade group to enter DF so why not make your own **** rule while recruiting?

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Originally Posted by Onyxleo

"If you don't like it, turn it off."

I'm not trying to be elitist, I'm trying to be 'hardcore', I don't care about gear being more common, I'm just in it for the fun of being challenged. I feel like I'm being robbed of that solely because I seem to belong to a minority, and that's just not fair. Some of you talk about options, but what about my options? None of you can honestly say that this won't be used by everyone because it's no risk with high reward, which is fundamentally appealing. I won't be able to do Coil or possibly Titan HM by the time this patch drops, so that original experience is just lost to me forever now? It's not fair.

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Aren't you overreacting? It's true in a DF party you can't control what the mentality of the other members will be, but you can still use the party finder with the explicit goal of 'no echo buff win' to look for like-minded players. It really isn't 'lost to you forever'.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Are you going to complete T1-5 with a maximum ilv of 90? Or are you going to overgear it as soon as you can?

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Who me? I mean realistically, when I get to it, I'll end up doing it the way everyone else in the group wants me to do it, because I'll be the minority. If I can get a group together to do content in a hard way, and self impose a max ilvl, I would love that. There's nothing stopping me doing that on the pre-endgame content now, and I'm trying to find other who are interested (it's harder than you think). But it's not OK for me to go into a group "undergeared" if it's going to put the others under stress and hinder their progress (which is what most players will want).

If the game can offer these challenges as separate modes but not make it so other players need to do it to progress, then it'll be easier for players like me to find each other.

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Originally Posted by Onyxleo

I won't be able to do Coil or possibly Titan HM by the time this patch drops, so that original experience is just lost to me forever now? It's not fair.

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The only instance in which your point is valid is with Coil. Every two weeks the Echo buff for that dungeon will increase. Convincing your other 7 members to turn this buff off so you can live out the original experience will be next to impossible. The only way this will happen is if they release a Party Leader "Echo Off" function that disables the buff for the entire party.

However, none of the other content is affected by your reasoning. Your very first attempt at Titan (Extreme) is ALWAYS at its original difficulty. The instance is repeatable thus you can try and try Titan as many times as you want at a 0% echo buff. Your entire party has 0% each time you re-enter the instance as well. No "original experience" is being lost.

After the patch I'll need to find a static group or manage to convince a bunch of random people in DF to click off their buffs. I know neither is going to happen. What's left for me? I was willing to compromise. I wasn't happy about the echo buff being in at all but I was willing to tolerate it cause I thought it was just to help people get to content like helping them through hms so they can see coil. But then I saw them adding it to Extremes. Isn't that too far? Why do they need to get through extremes? The only content extremes unlock are more extremes and extreme primals are only just more difficult versions of the same fight.

They've gone way too far with the echo buff on this...

I imagine if I click off the echo buff, I'll probably get kicked out of groups for being a "troll", and even if I don't there's still 7 other people with it making the fight still easy.

You can simple go out each time echo buff activates and re-enter too...

What difference would removing it yourself make, unless you can convince the rest of the party to do the same.

It will be very positive for learning groups. It always sad to see that one idiot leave when you feel like you are making progress and just might make it. The echo buff will be some small incentive for people to stick with the group, or so I hope.

If it wasn't so hard for me to find groups that both can both a) get to post heart titanX and b) survive longer than 10 seconds, I might be slightly disappointed, but its at the point now where I have lost motivation to keep spamming groups in hopes that it will stay together long enough to make progress.

Don't really understand people against this. Overgearing content is no less challenge destroying. I guess everyone is downing titan EX in ilvl 67 huh...

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Originally Posted by Bakabridget

But then I saw them adding it to Extremes. Isn't that too far? Why do they need to get through extremes? The only content extremes unlock are more extremes and extreme primals are only just more difficult versions of the same fight.

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It's been mentioned before that they plan on including Extremes to unlock more than just more extremes. With the progression of newer content and main story it was implied that extremes would be included, hence the echo. They don't want people stalled on main story content. Which is also why they are doing echo with Coil 1

What is wrong with letting everyone enjoy what the game has to offer? How does it affect you that players who couldn't beat content before, or didn't want to stress themselves out over the difficulty and want to remain light, that they can now beat and enjoy it's loot contents?

You have a new and difficult 4 levels to beat that they most likely won't and more extreme primals. I think the only difference is that you care so much to create a wide gap. Whereas, I don't think many casual players care that you beat the content before them, at all. I like to air on the side of playing to win, but if someone else cannot stand that playstyle, that doesn't make them any different from me other than that one little difference. We all have a fundamental goal in mind and that is to have fun!

There are really awesome plot points and twists from beating turn 5 that I will not give away and I'd like everyone to enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by Bakabridget

After the patch I'll need to find a static group or manage to convince a bunch of random people in DF to click off their buffs.

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You'd need to find a static group anyway. I highly doubt a random party thrown together in the DF can beat t4 or t5, even with the Echo. Even though the EX primals are in the DF now, you don't see DF parties actually beating them. Coil will be no different. DF it for practice, but if you want to seriously have a chance you will need an organized group. The Echo will NOT remove the unforgiving mechanics of the fights (it will just make some recovery easier if someone DOES mess up).

First of all echo buff is only for the old content pre patch 2.2 stuff. None of the new 2.2 progression content will have the echo buff until the next tier of raiding comes out in 2.4 Even without the echo buff you won't ever get the originally difficulty due to the fact that higher ilvl gear is being released thus making the fight easier because of that. Echo buff is there to help those who could not do it when it was current content.

I have no problem with people getting the echo buff because I finished everything before 2.2 and will be working on new content.

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Originally Posted by Velox

You'd need to find a static group anyway. I highly doubt a random party thrown together in the DF can beat t4 or t5, even with the Echo. Even though the EX primals are in the DF now, you don't see DF parties actually beating them. Coil will be no different. DF it for practice, but if you want to seriously have a chance you will need an organized group. The Echo will NOT remove the unforgiving mechanics of the fights (it will just make some recovery easier if someone DOES mess up).

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- The Binding Coil of Bahamut
The weekly entrance restriction on entering all five turns of the Binding Coil of Bahamut has been abolished.
Players may now proceed directly to any turn of the Binding Coil of Bahamut.
Players may now enter the Binding Coil of Bahamut via the Duty Finder with a full party.


binding coil in df need full premade party anyway

Yes, it's a nerf. Yes it's going to make content easier.. but what I don't get is why people who have cleared it care so much? Many are acting like there aren't going to be any challenges come 2.2 and don't seem to acknowledge that T6-9 will be there to beat which will not have the echo nor by DF-able.I think somewhere along the lines SE nerfed story mode stuff or something or the other dungeons. iunno, "I cleared it before the nerf." Did I care that they nerfed it? no. Did anyone care? maybe? Personally, I could care less because there was still challenging content to take on. The fear that there will be this sudden influx of terrible or carried players seems odd to me, because when it comes right down to it, I have no idea how this would change the way I, or anybody else, actually plays this game.

I'm pretty certain I've played with people who have been carried through Titan HM and have their shiny relic. But even when it's clear that is the case, will knowing that change the way you currently play? You will still have ragequits. You will still avoid PUG groups for certain content. You will still see the "must have cleared" "will queue____" "will check lodestones" in the PF. You will probably only want to run T6-9 with a static initially. You will still get all the shinies that the other folk cannot get immediately...

I just don't see how this has a practical effect on your day-to-day play.

Really, it comes down to the pride you take in saying "I completed ____ before the echo buff patch." Don't get me wrong. It's impressive in its own right. Seriously. Mad props (in all honesty, I am genuinely impressed by the dedication). But if this is the only argument you have for going against an echo buff, then get over it. More than likely your boast would be met with "cool story bro." and that would be the end of it. Sure, it seems like SE is tossing aside your weeks' worth of efforts and is seemingly (per the tone some of the comments take herein) handing it to newbies, but it's not like SE is not giving you anything else to work at which will STILL be unattainable by those newbies.

Post 2.2, you've got T6-9 to deal with. There's no need to look back and worry what people are doing behind you. Join your fellow accomplished players in the fight ahead.

You will freely be able to remove it if you wish. Don't try to force server segregation for something you can easily deal with yourself.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

First of all echo buff is only for the old content pre patch 2.2 stuff. None of the new 2.2 progression content will have the echo buff until the next tier of raiding comes out in 2.4 Even without the echo buff you won't ever get the originally difficulty due to the fact that higher ilvl gear is being released thus making the fight easier because of that. Echo buff is there to help those who could not do it when it was current content.

I have no problem with people getting the echo buff because I finished everything before 2.2 and will be working on new content.

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My response to this is what I said before:

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Originally Posted by Velo_Vandore

I think there's a misconception that players who want to experience content at it's highest difficulty will always push on to end game quickly, and players who choose to take their time are not capable of, or interested in, clearing very difficult content.

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I'll never reach the latest end-game, so I'm always playing baby mode versions. The game is placing pressure on me and others to complete each piece of content before it's nerf bombed. I'm just saying it would be nice for there to be an option to play ex-end game content at the initial / max difficulty level, so we don't have to rush past all the content to get a sense of achievement.

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Originally Posted by Velo_Vandore

My response to this is what I said before:



I'll never reach the latest end-game, so I'm always playing baby mode versions. The game is placing pressure on me and others to complete each piece of content before it's nerf bombed. I'm just saying it would be nice for there to be an option to play ex-end game content at the initial / max difficulty level, so we don't have to rush past all the content to get a sense of achievement.

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Like I said if you beat content when its not current it has already been nerfed by overgearing. There will be ilvl gear 20-25 ilvls harder that people will have come 2.2 and if anyone is using anything higher then 90 basically the fight is already nerfed and not at its original difficulty. You get 6-8 months to beat content that is a long time if you didn't do it by then probably means you weren't going to do it.

Hypothetical situation. Say if you even have 1-2 ilvl 110 dps that just mop the floor with Titan EX one shot it didn't get echo buff even with 2 other dps dying and say you were one of them they basically killed him while you were dead 70% of the time is this really isn't an achievement.

IDK how many times this has already been said, but from the length of this thread, not enough.

You can toggle it on and off. :)

With the number of people screaming that the addition of the optional buff is not fair, you'd think they could just group up together and manually remove it so they can run at it's intended difficulty (more or less).

The buff is to make groups that otherwise can't clear content able to clear it eventually. The maximum Coil buff is still a ways off and optional. The primal buffs only go into effect after trying the fight unbuffed for a reasonable amount of time and failing. No group would would intentionally stack the echo buff in those fights since it requires wasting time. In Coil, you can try to find a like minded group, or clear it in DF with the buff. I can all but guarantee that doing Coil with randoms will negate the bonuses of the echo buff.

EDIT: I also find it amazing the range people have on these forums. These past several weeks/ months it's been nothing but posts regarding nothing to do in game and too little content. Suddenly content is rushed and people don't have time to do it before it's nerfed. I know, different people (I'm hoping >_>), but it just goes to show you what SE has to consider when making changes. For every player request there's a contradictory request form some other player.

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Originally Posted by Daenerys_Sedai

Post 2.2, you've got T6-9 to deal with. There's no need to look back and worry what people are doing behind you. Join your fellow accomplished players in the fight ahead.

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By the time I get to 2.2's content that'll be nerfed too X_X

Yes I can catch up if I put in the hours / effort, but I don't like that I have to play at the fastest players pace if I want to get the sense of achievement. It's not about proving to others I did the content before nerf, but proving to myself I can do it eventually when I get there (and not on easy mode).

Coil buff won't even be in the game until 2 weeks and it ramps up 5% every 2 weeks. I can see a lot of people not being able to beat twintania still and buying runs from organized groups.

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Originally Posted by Meshico

IDK how many times this has already been said, but from the length of this thread, not enough.

You can toggle it on and off. :)

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for some content yes, but for coil (the hardest content):

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2 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・The effect will automatically be activated upon entry of the instance.
　　　・Your HP, damage dealt, and cure potency will be increased by 10%.

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- 8 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・The effect will automatically be activated upon entry of the instance.
　　　・Your HP, damage dealt, and cure potency will be increased by 30%.

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- 2 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・You will be able to enter the dungeon through the Duty Finder (solo).
　　　・The reflection damage of the Clockwork Knights in Turn 4 will be alleviated.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Updates/page4

Essentially this means that for coil, I can never have the opportunity to complete the content at the original maximum difficulty. This makes me sad. I'm not saying there will be no challenge, but the option to play the hardest version will not exist. You can rush through to the next end game content sure, but that's not what I'm after.

Can you explain how you keep taking that as if it's without the echo buff.

It's the echo buff. The echo for Coil isn't going to be immediate or after x tries of failing the instance. It's X tries and failing for weeks.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

Can you explain how you keep taking that as if it's without the echo buff.

It's the echo buff. The echo for Coil isn't going to be immediate or after x tries of failing the instance. It's X tries and failing for weeks.

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I thought initially that it was going to be like that also, but I suppose that would be difficult to manage with the DF. All the same it's removable and takes effect in stages over the next 2 months.

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Originally Posted by Velo_Vandore

I can NEVER have the opportunity to complete the content at the original maximum difficulty. This makes me sad.

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Never
~~~~~
Adverb
1. At no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
2. Not at all.


And yet the buff can be turned OFF. Allowing you to complete it at its original difficulty forever.


Forever
~~~~~~
adverb
1. For all future time; for always.
2. Continually.


You guys are taking this to some extreme that doesn't exist. Your first attempt is always at the original difficulty every time you enter the instance (non-coil). The difficulty didn't go anywhere. And for Coil you're just refusing to put the time in to finding a party that also doesn't want an echo buff. You just want to experience the originals difficulty? Well then you're in luck! Since you only have to form a non-echo party ONCE to achieve your goal. "Never" doesn't apply to either situation since it can be easily done.

Most people hate doing old content. I am always lagging behind on end game so I always have a hard time catching up, because its almost impossible finding people to run the older stuff. Everyone wants to be carried to the latest progression content.
I will also add that most people want the easiest and most efficient route to best gear because they don't have time to wipe for months on any content. The slight buffs echo will provide will help healers and DPS checks. People still have to dodge stuff properly.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Let's be real, how many people choose to do the normal method for turn 2 rather than the enrage method? How likely is it for people not to take the route with the least amount of resistance which by the way people say they choose to do rather than "the archaic way of old school mmorpgs."

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Which means the issue is people falsely claiming they like the difficulty in order to buff their image on the forums or in chat, as when given the choice they choose not to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Onyxleo

"If you don't like it, turn it off."

I genuinely don't understand this mentality. I can turn it off, but that doesn't stop the other seven people in the party from abusing it and damaging my experience. I just enjoy being challenged by my games, that's why I play this over any other MMO on the market. I enjoy having that feeling of accomplishment after overcoming a difficult challenge.

I'm not trying to be elitist, I'm trying to be 'hardcore', I don't care about gear being more common, I'm just in it for the fun of being challenged. I feel like I'm being robbed of that solely because I seem to belong to a minority, and that's just not fair. Some of you talk about options, but what about my options? None of you can honestly say that this won't be used by everyone because it's no risk with high reward, which is fundamentally appealing. I won't be able to do Coil or possibly Titan HM by the time this patch drops, so that original experience is just lost to me forever now? It's not fair.

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This is what party finder is for: when you have standards to which you expect the rest of your group to meet. If you can't find 7 other people on the entire server who think the same way as you do, how is it right or "fair" to limit the progress of everyone else to fit your individual fantasy of what makes an enjoyable experience?

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Never
~~~~~
Adverb
1. At no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
2. Not at all.


And yet the buff can be turned OFF. Allowing you to complete it at its original difficulty forever.


Forever
~~~~~~
adverb
1. For all future time; for always.
2. Continually.


You guys are taking this to some extreme that doesn't exist. Your first attempt is always at the original difficulty (non-coil). The difficulty didn't go anywhere. And for Coil you're just refusing to put the time in to finding a party that also doesn't want an echo buff.

You just want to experience the originals difficulty? Well then you're in luck! Since you only have to form a non-echo party ONCE to achieve your goal. "Never" doesn't apply to either situation.

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He can never beat it at the original difficulty in a sense because people will have higher ilvl gear making many of the old fights even more trivial, unless he enforces a must use gear 90 or below.

It's ok, for now...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

He can never beat it at the original difficulty in a sense because people will have higher ilvl gear making many of the old fights even more trivial, unless he enforces a must use gear 90 or below.

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And yet that's still completely possible to do. Which means "never" doesn't apply. Like I said people are taking this to some extreme where original difficulty will "never" again be possible. Furthermore, ilevel wasn't of any concern in his post.

so you have a problem with the echo buff but not with the fact that new people will be doing the old content in full ilvl80 or ilvl90...huh...oohh wait there is even the chance to get in grp with ilvl110

the echo buff is just so *if* u need it its there for the HMs and EX...u be doing those in full ilvl90 sooooo they will be pretty rolfstomp anyways

the coil echo is to help ppl clear it faster and if u dont want it just remove...if u cant find ppl to do it without it aint the buffs fault

I didn't know there was already an option to toggle the buff...... how??

If your beloved challenge is being reduced, you can just create your own. Go into the fight missing some gear, don't use food buffs, remove Protect from yourself. If you play using mouse/keyboard, switch to controller without practicing. If you play with controller, play using the controller upside down. Are you right-handed? Move the mouse to the left side of your keyboard. You don't have to whine and cry about the game not being challenging enough when there are all sorts of ways to make it more challenging for yourself if challenge is what you want.

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Originally Posted by starswept

I didn't know there was already an option to toggle the buff...... how??

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You can't toggle it ON but you can click it off like any other buff.

I can agree that I dislike the Echo buff. However, I don't agree with the train of thought of others here.

I do believe that certain current fights are more difficult than they need to be, and this is either due to mechanics that are just a little too overwhelming and difficult by design, or it's because the mechanics are way too lag sensitive. These fights should be adjusted and made more realistic for people to successfully do.

I dislike the Echo buff because I feel it's the wrong solution to the problem. This is sticking training wheels on players, rather than solve the root of the problem.

Hooray for the echo. Now maybe my static can beat T5. We've been at it for months and we know the mechanics but stupid crap and tiny mistakes hold us back.

Like I said in a different thread about Myth... the items that drop in BC, the E-Primals, etc is all level 90. Which will be the new DL in 2.2. i90 loot shouldn't be any more difficult to obtain than DL is currently. I'm completely fine with them adding in the echo so people can clear this older content to get ready for the new.