Why do you save your LB?

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

I don't always BLM LB.. but when I do, I kill the spiney and wipe the party

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Please do ifrit as well. Nothing like meteor-ing the nail and pushing iffy to enrage and wipe everyone at the finish line!

Either towards the end of a fight to bring the fight to and end quicker, to push through a certain phase or for a sticky situation such as half the pt being dead and a healer popping LB.

I love the responses to this thread....very hopeful...

As BRD, I have used the healer LB maybe 20-25 times to resurrect a wipe. Want to know what happens? People just wipe again. In theory, saving the LB3 for a healer LB is the right thing to do, however it doesn't work so well in practice. If you are with a group of people who don't know mechanics to a specific fight, chances are that Healer LB is not going to save your run. Out of all those times, only one time my healer LB actually saved the fight and we got a win. Ifrit HM. And only because we could down it with 1 tank, 1 heal and me as DPS, because everyone else wiped again. Anything scaled harder than Ifrit HM, your healer LB3 is not going to help save much.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen healers use the LB3 to resurrect the fallen DPS, and they just fall again. Kind of like PArcher said, Are you seeing a trend? Don't get me wrong. That ONE time I saved a wipe and we beat the trial because of my LB3, I felt like God. It was awesome. Noobs praising my existence and such. But honestly, no. Healer LB3 is not something worth 'saving'. Not in my experience, anyway.

The other points are valid, about saving a DPS LB until specific phases. All HM primals can easily be done without an LB, but it helps I guess. But otherwise I stick to OP's sentiments. There is no point to hold an LB, unless for certain phases of trials.

Tank LB3 for Ultima HM is the only support LB I've seen work with any type of repeated success. If you are relying on a healer LB to save your run, you probably should find a new group to run with.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

If you have 3 dead members in Titan, your LB will do so little damage, you might as well not use it and eat a landslide/weight out of carelessness.

Attack LB is the combine raw stats of all members of the PT. with 3 dps dead, you LB is basically crappier then regular skills.

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I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thanks!

I can't stand it when the melee dps try to wait for a 2 or 3 bar LB, when it's pretty obvious that by the time it's filled it will be overkill on the boss. I'll steal it from them if I'm on BLM or SMN so it's not wasted. There is ZERO need for 10k+ damage on a boss with only 3k left. Just because you like seeing the bigger number is only hurting the group. I agree with the OP. If the LB is full at the start of a fight, use it ASAP!

Woah woah, I never said I agreed with using a Lv 1 LB right off the bat either. In dungeons bosses where AoE LB is not preferable and the melee DPS is free to use it as they see fit, I find it better to wait and try to get a lv 2, and if you can't, then definitely use Lv. 1 as the last hit just for the sake of not wasting it.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I love the responses to this thread....very hopeful...As BRD, I have used the healer LB maybe 20-25 times to resurrect a wipe. Want to know what happens? People just wipe again. In theory, saving the LB3 for a healer LB is the right thing to do, however it doesn't work so well in practice. If you are with a group of people who don't know mechanics to a specific fight, chances are that Healer LB is not going to save your run. Out of all those times, only one time my healer LB actually saved the fight and we got a win. Ifrit HM. And only because we could down it with 1 tank, 1 heal and me as DPS, because everyone else wiped again. Anything scaled harder than Ifrit HM, your healer LB3 is not going to help save much.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen healers use the LB3 to resurrect the fallen DPS, and they just fall again. Kind of like PArcher said, Are you seeing a trend? Don't get me wrong. That ONE time I saved a wipe and we beat the trial because of my LB3, I felt like God. It was awesome. Noobs praising my existence and such. But honestly, no. Healer LB3 is not something worth 'saving'. Not in my experience, anyway.

The other points are valid, about saving a DPS LB until specific phases. All HM primals can easily be done without an LB, but it helps I guess. But otherwise I stick to OP's sentiments. There is no point to hold an LB, unless for certain phases of trials.

Tank LB3 for Ultima HM is the only support LB I've seen work with any type of repeated success. If you are relying on a healer LB to save your run, you probably should find a new group to run with.

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Healer LB wasn't put in the game for a guaranteed success. If you time it right, it can easily save runs, as you said you have done once. There isn't much more to ask for. No one is relying on it. You have to time it better to save runs, doing healer lb3 right before a big hit is obviously going to kill everyone, doing it between hits is going to save lives...

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Originally Posted by Odd

I can't stand it when the melee dps try to wait for a 2 or 3 bar LB, when it's pretty obvious that by the time it's filled it will be overkill on the boss. I'll steal it from them if I'm on BLM or SMN so it's not wasted. There is ZERO need for 10k+ damage on a boss with only 3k left. Just because you like seeing the bigger number is only hurting the group. I agree with the OP. If the LB is full at the start of a fight, use it ASAP!

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This is not a good idea, you are taking a weaker lb and using it, when you could have probably done nearly as much damage from just casting, and you never know when someone is going to take big hits or some deaths will occur, and you will get lb2/3 due to big chunks of lb filling or even need that healer lb (I know its rare, but it happens) burning it as soon as you want to as caster is about as careless as you can be, it does almost no benefit. This applies less to SMN as your dots are doing a bunch of damage while you are casting, but it still applies, and as blm you are only slowing yourself/the group down.

There are times its best to LB ASAP, and there are times its not. You can tell if you'll have time to build another bar after you LB.

Sometimes you don't trust your group, and saving it for the killing blow because you expect you might need healer LB3 - and yes, I've had groups wipe right after they used the DPS LB, where the healer LB would have saved the group, and I've had groups where we saved the DPS LB for the end, but ended up needing it for healer LB3 and winning.

If the LB itself is not going to be the killing blow, and if you know you won't fill it up to be able to LB a second time, then it doesn't matter when you LB. It doesn't matter if you brought the boss from 30% to 20%, or 20% to 10%. Either way, the LB is used just the same and you won't be getting off another.

People who are so gung-ho to LB that they get themselves killed to mechanics, and there's still 20% left on the boss, are just dumb. I've had idiots LB on the AK dragon too soon, and we end up with the bomb in the safe spot due to LB root and the boss with too much health still left to burn down.

I've also seen TONS of idiots burn their LB right as a boss teleports, thus wasting the LB.

In a CT run, try using LB at once without looking at the other groups chances of wiping (e.g Atomos) and you'll have your answer. I guess like what the others mentioned and in this case, timing it is safer than using it outright

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

Healer LB wasn't put in the game for a guaranteed success. If you time it right, it can easily save runs, as you said you have done once. There isn't much more to ask for. No one is relying on it. You have to time it better to save runs, doing healer lb3 right before a big hit is obviously going to kill everyone, doing it between hits is going to save lives...

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I appreciate you putting words in my mouth. Thanks for that.

I never once stated/implied that I timed my LBs wrong. If you are under the impression that I am Pulse of Lifing a group of players into Titan's p5 plumes or tumults, then you are sorely mistaken. A Healer LB is not needed for any fight at all....ever. You said "No one is relying on it", but apparently you didn't read any of the responses in this thread. Almost the entire first 2 pages is people advising to wait on using an LB in case a healer needs it. That is....quite a bit of people relying on it.

My real point is that if you need to use the Healer LB at all, then you are only temporarily saving lives, because more likely than not those people died because they aren't running the mechanics correctly. Do you think that after they have been resurrected they all automatically remember/learned how to dodge? Sure, occasionally someone dies because of lag, or things outside of their control (dog unplugs controller etc.) The majority of deaths happen because people refuse to learn, or are just terrible at the game. My timing for LB3 doesn't make one bit of difference if the players I resurrect willingly walk right back into plumes, or don't get the hell out of eruptions, or whatever mechanic they are failing at during the fight. And now, you are basically invincible after resurrection for 5-10 seconds or until you fire off an attack, so your statement is highly irrelevant to begin with.



Or maybe you just never PUG......

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Almost the entire first 2 pages is people advising to wait on using an LB in case a healer needs it. That is....quite a bit of people relying on it.

Or maybe you just never PUG......

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Snipped the response and all.. but.. I would disagree that saving it just in case (which is what the majority of people in the thread are saying) is the same as relying on it. Relying on it would mean you are counting on having to use it (and it actually working) every fight in order to clear the fight at all. That's a big difference from saving it on the off chance that something goes tits up and needs to be saved (say some person got distracted and ran the wrong direction for eruptions, or started running early and managed to kill everyone else). Then again, that last sentence is true when I'm doing end game primals, or raids. I don't PUG, so my experience is probably going to be different than yours. We've had a lot of success using a healer LB to recover when we've actually had to do it. Then again, we don't exactly use it often (I can't remember the last time), and when we have a lot of people die it's not because they don't know mechanics.

Our FC actually takes the approach that we don't want to rely on a LB period. Way back when we first started running Titan HM, we refused to use a DPS LB to help with the heart. We didn't want to have to rely on that to get past that phase, we wanted people to improve instead, so that there wasn't a bunch of auto-attacking prior to the heart phase, or that if we pushed him too early we weren't screwed. So I'd say that relying on a LB, whichever kind, we actually try and avoid. LBs for us are just helpful things that can happen in battle for the most part, not something we actually need (the exception probably being Ultima HM).

I also haven't done Ifrit EX. My group isn't focusing on the Primals right now, and as a tank, I really have no need to pug them.

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Originally Posted by Odett

I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thanks!

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Please do not keep that in mind. That poster has not one clue what the blue hell they are talking about.

Just... don't listen to that person. Please.

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Originally Posted by Issachar

Whenever is most appropriate, strategically. Anyone that just LBs to LB when it has a better time or place is quick to get ousted.

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This is really why it exists. Of course, if you are geared enough to clear the content with little issues (perhaps you run with the same group) then you can use your LB more liberally. But for new encounters and new groups, saving the LB can help the group turn the battle around in your favour.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

If you have 3 dead members in Titan, your LB will do so little damage, you might as well not use it and eat a landslide/weight out of carelessness.

Attack LB is the combine raw stats of all members of the PT. with 3 dps dead, you LB is basically crappier then regular skills.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the LB based on the ilv of the weapons of everyone in the group? I thought I seen a post on Reddit about a group that tested the LB with full gear on, and then naked with only weapons, and with low level weapons. It has been awhile but I'm pretty sure LB really doesn't change if someone is dead does it?

Well if you are learning to just bust your LB at any time, you will have to UNLEARN that later on. If you are doing EX primals, of T4 of coil, and you wasted our lb just whenever it filled, I'd kick you. Had a person do that in my coil run the other day as a troll, I will just assume you are troll that actually knows the fight mechanics and chooses to annoy people, instead of thinking you just didn't learn to save your LB until the party said so. There are strategic reason to use LB at certain times, push a mob into certain phases, etc. So if its some trash content, and you are doing well on dps sure, LB whenever. But in ACTUAL endgame, past HM primals, please wait, usually you party will talk strategy and tell you when to LB, or who should LB. If you're on mnk and you LB, when it was meant to be a BLM those are two totally different LB, one could one shot a lesser mob, while the other could take a lot of dmg off of a lot of mobs, there is a reason why you wait. I just can't even believe this thread. There are a lot of fights you can get through without a lb, don't get me wrong, many a time had a melee/magic dps dead during titan heart phase, and you had to dps is down fast, have a healer in cleric w/e, but what I'm saying is don't get into the habit of just pressing LB when you have it, make sure you ask before, make sure its ok to just randomly press it. Or else you'll just see yourself kicked as people will think you are incapable of waiting. Its the habit that bothers me more than the reason behind it, if you get into this habit, you're going to be the one I'm yelling at in harder content where we did actually need the LB cause we're a lil under geared, think t6. After a while you don't need it, and do it without it, but its nice to have, and I don't want some guy being selfish thinking he should lb at the two mark cause its full >< new players shouldn't be taught this, its ok for old experienced ones to think it if that makes sense, we've usually done the fight a few times, can tell within first 5 minutes dps strength etc etc. New player doing this seems like....spoiled brat kid who is too selfish to think about anyone else.

TLDR: Its ok for low level trash content, but in real endgame EX primals and Coil, don't expect to do that, I would kick you for it, with good reason, there are reasons to talk about the LB, who should use it, and when. I really don't think anyone's good enough to not use a LB through t5 c'mon, lets not kid, so lets not get new players use to just LB all the time. IF you're with FC that's chill do w/e you've agreed on. But with random players (pugs), please don't do this, that's just bad practice for later. Now if you know "here is where someone should LB in this fight" and no one does, PLEASE DO, tank or healer shouldn't always have to call LB to you guys. Just old experienced players, that are clearing all content, its ok for you to think this. NEW PLAYERS: it is not ok for you to think this.

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Originally Posted by Lafier

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the LB based on the ilv of the weapons of everyone in the group? I thought I seen a post on Reddit about a group that tested the LB with full gear on, and then naked with only weapons, and with low level weapons. It has been awhile but I'm pretty sure LB really doesn't change if someone is dead does it?

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Go test it, any melee will realize their LB is worthless crap with enough people dead.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

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I guess it really just depends on your viewpoint. I totally agree with most of what you said. Every once in a while things can get crazy, with a static. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have ever needed to LB3 my static, and we have been playing together since launch. And it is truly rare for me, because I usually leave that up to the actual healers. I will ONLY LB3 if both healers are down. And my FC kind of unofficially takes the same stand as yours in regards to using it at all. The only thing we have ever designated a LB for, is in phase 6 of Turn 4. Any other time, it's like you said: It's nice to have, but not really needed.

Then we get into the PUG discussion which is entirely different. My FC has about 2-3 days a week where we all get to play together, due to work/life/family etc. I can play every day if I choose to, so I end up pugging content when my FC isn't on. I help people with trials with my LS, and try to teach mechanics to people who don't know them. But my experience in Trials with full PUG groups has never been good. In all my groups save for one, my LB3 has been used to resurrect a wiped group, that just wiped again.

Technically you're right about the difference between relying and saving 'just in case', but I would argue that if you go in with that mentality then it's already a fail. IMO, you should go into a new fight knowing that you will wipe, but trying to progressively get better at the mechanics. To me, it's like keeping a pair of crutches in your car's trunk when both of your legs work just fine. But, that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Go test it, any melee will realize their LB is worthless crap with enough people dead.

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Until I can get more people that agree with you, I'm going to go off on the assumption that it doesn't. Mainly because this game has been out for months and this is the first I've ever heard of dead people affecting limit break damage. I never really get to play as melee myself, so if more people can confirm what you said I'd be more inclined to believe it.

Edit: I've had people tell me it still goes off the KO'd person's ilv and that dead people are irrelevant. As such I'm not sure how much water your cup holds with me (personally, everyone else is inclined to believe what they wish).

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Go test it, any melee will realize their LB is worthless crap with enough people dead.

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Melee LB is based off the average weapon damage of all the melee dps (DRGs and MNKs) in the party. Whether or not there's people dead is irrelevant, it will always do the same damage.

Caster LB is the same but average weapon magic damage of your caster classes in the party. This does not include healers.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

I'm seeing that there are misconceptions about LB strength. Does it say in the Combat text how much damage an LB did? If it does, I'll definitely perform a little experimental trial when some FC mates are on, once LBing with a full live party, and a second time with one or more dead members. I'll hopefully get back to you guys soon (or if someone does this sooner than me, I'd greatly appreciate if you shared your results ^^)!

I have been under the assumption that a dead person's (weapon) item level is factored into the limit breaker's damage output as "0" (or at least something awful) and thus greatly decreases its potency.

I play a monk and have used hundreds of LB's over the months, and this seems to be consistent 100 % of the time. When things go awry in Titan Extreme, for example, and we have 3-4 people dead, I am counting on a different player to pop the 3x healer LB if needed because I know that me using it on Titan will result in a negligible amount of damage.

I have observed this in all other content as well. If your party is on the verge of wiping, and you use the LB as a clutch to finish off a boss, do not expect great results.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Melee LB is based off the average weapon damage of all the melee dps (DRGs and MNKs) in the party. Whether or not there's people dead is irrelevant, it will always do the same damage.

Caster LB is the same but average weapon magic damage of your caster classes in the party. This does not include healers.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

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Test before you speak. Some of us do LB over and over easily see a trend, compare logs, and it's pretty easy to even eyeball the results after so many runs.

Good titan group:
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Bad titan group
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saving them can be wise idea in case for recoveries as ppl sometimes used to wipe wen boss about 10% - 5% HP

so u may need to keep it for emergencies if ur DPS is right on track

why would you need to use it if ur DPS is fine?

well. i say if you know the boss battle is easy. and the LB is already full. may as well use it. so you can do damage and let it build back up for the next boss fight. unless the next boss is right around the corner. like in CT.

but there is actually good reasons to save the LB till towards the end of a boss fight. most bosses go through phases. of course the already mentioned "skip a phase" strategy. and fights can get tougher the longer it lasts. so essentially it makes sense to save you highest damage output abilities or buffs for last. they have lengthy cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Test before you speak. Some of us do LB over and over easily see a trend, compare logs, and it's pretty easy to even eyeball the results after so many runs.

Good titan group:
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Bad titan group
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you are right at this

at least before limit break used a light appear under every player

been ages since i played as DPS but thanks i learned something new

I don't

one time I used the healer one on kb because no one else was using it and you think I'm gonna sit around and let those bars go to waste?

Uhh, yeah, I don't think LBs are weakened by having dead party members... I've had many instances in the game where I've had a last-ditch melee LB win a fight with nearly everyone else dead, and I've never noticed a significantly lessened amount of damage dealt than normal.

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Test before you speak. Some of us do LB over and over easily see a trend, compare logs, and it's pretty easy to even eyeball the results after so many runs.

Good titan group:
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Bad titan group
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LB damage does take everyone's gear into account (dunno if it's the average ilvls of the group or just their weapons in particular) so yeah, you will still notice a difference in damage dealt based on that. But whether they are alive or dead should not factor in.

As soon as the boss fight starts, if I have full LB I will use it, as a DRG. Unless a specific mechanic causes me to save it for a certain situation. Like the last boss in Manar HM, I save LB for the last trash mob. This way the LB meter can build again and can be used a second time if time allows it.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Test before you speak. Some of us do LB over and over easily see a trend, compare logs, and it's pretty easy to even eyeball the results after so many runs.

Good titan group:
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Bad titan group
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Oh, this is going to be good.

You shall have your testing tonight, special snowflake.

As someone who routinely drags newbies through Titan - and by newbies, I mean folks who have just been dragged from Chimera to Titan without knowing what is going on in the slightest - I can safely say that our Titan fights typically end with four or five active personnel.

You shall have your testing.

Melee LB3 garuda ex >>> melee Lb1 / 2 sisters

As a class with dps lb, I see that as a feature to use on emergency or strategic (hello, Nails!) cases. Or slash down when fight is at end, just to speedup.

In Haukke Manor you get to use it like 3 times on different bosses if you just use it right away. And by that I mean launch it immediately as the mini-boss starts so it can build back up again. It's good for example taking out the trash mob in the middle boss fight quickly so it won't bother you the entire fight.

I remember my big goal when I first bought this game was being able to launch the L3 LB. Recent runs through Primal Hards however, have shown me that sometimes it's better to hold off if the party is struggling. Usually this is with a new group or certain problems out of our control happen.

Best example was during Ifrit Hard. The party was dropping and all I thought was to try and burn, so I launched Final Heaven. What I didn't know was that the Bard was still alive and someone had called for the HLB. Had just kept with the burn, they could have popped it, rezzed everyone, and potentially prevented a party wipe.

The problem is unless you're in an organized group where you have everyone's roles planned, you're going to run into problems on the roulette with the LB management. Certain players will start getting edgy and complacent on who's to do what and complain or drop because someone wasn't suppose to use it or they didn't pop it soon enough.

Wow...I got off topic quick.