Why in god's green Earth do dungeons have a timer?

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

I wouldn't want to be in any dungeon for more than 3 hours.

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Then... don't? If a run isn't going smoothly and you don't think that's going to change, nothing is stopping you from leaving. Nothing would stop you from leaving if the timer wasn't there, either.

It is detrimental to have the timer, and I've explained precisely why. Not only does it pointlessly interrupt raid nights, it also means none of the instances can be used for roleplay. And even more significantly, it's a sign of SE's poor planning regarding instance server set-up.

Dungeon instances take place on a separate global server.

I'm guessing they added the timer to ensure a constant rotation of instance reservations.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Then... don't? If a run isn't going smoothly and you don't think that's going to change, nothing is stopping you from leaving. Nothing would stop you from leaving if the timer wasn't there, either.

It is detrimental to have the timer, and I've explained precisely why. Not only does it pointlessly interrupt raid nights, it also means none of the instances can be used for roleplay. And even more significantly, it's a sign of SE's poor planning regarding instance server set-up.

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My advice: take your own advice and don't do it. It is what it is, if you don't like it move on. That's your right. The game has been this way since 2011 on 1.0 release, it's working just fine for the majority and it's very unlikely to change.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

none of the instances can be used for roleplay.

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I don't see the problem with this. I went into the dungeon to get loot, not to play "mystical pirate fairy princess", with some shmuck.

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Originally Posted by Synra

The instance population is one factor, but it's not the only reason.

The timers also used to add difficulty to the dungeons. Back in the early phases of Beta, Tam Tara Deepcroft was a much longer dungeon. About twice as long as it is today. And the Timer was only 60 minutes, not the 90 or 120 it is today.

This created a condition for failure, and honestly I loved it.

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The problem is that it's a terrible way to implement "failure" as a possibility. There's a reason I pushed through beta for them to remove the timer and apply it only where it makes sense. Heroic Culling of Stratholme in WoW is a perfect example of how you implement a timer in an instanced dungeon in a way that makes sense. We currently have absolutely nothing in-game that would require a timer.

SE didn't want those few people who afk in a dungeon maybe after they finished it for a few days sitting there taking up instance server space. Not like it would happen very often but it could still happen. So they put a timer in every dungeon to kick people out when the time runs out.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I expect SE to learn from mistakes that others have already made. I would rather not have to go through the entire MMO development learning process all over again; there's no excuse for it. Other MMOs have solved instance crowding in far better ways - namely, spreading out the dungeons across multiple instance servers. Aurum Vale does not need the same amount of server resources as Amdapor Keep or the Coil turns.

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Please just stop. You and everyone else trying to find a problem with the timer obviously have no actual knowledge as to how servers work, and how things should be managed. So please, just stop already, you're wrong, anyone complaining about the timer is wrong, etc.

FYI, considering the fact that you can blow through AK in 15 minutes or less, you should have no problem standing around doing your "role play" garbage.

I would say it's a blue earth actually

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This really is not a thing that happens in other MMOs without a timer. SE needs to stop finding solutions to false problems

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Because the dungeon timers are "real" problems?

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Originally Posted by Ricky

I would say it's a blue earth actually

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:D that and it's not even God's green/blue earth in the first place?
(More like SE's Intel Inside)

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Originally Posted by VisRalis

:D that and it's not even God's green/blue earth in the first place?
(More like SE's Intel Inside)

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Thats some deep shit man... i bugging out thinking about it.. if i had a choice between the blue pill or red pill. Give me the F'ing Blue Pill man.

Timers : well most of the replies you have rcvd are regards to beating the dungeon boss and getting out in time.

I have another gripe that has nothing to do with FIGHTING mobs.

Ever noticed the achievements you get for ( Mapping ) an area.

Well I noticed that i have a few dungeons that are not fully unlocked....because
1. Most runs spent in said dungeon are rushed and people don't go to certain areas because of either trash mobs or dead ends . Pisses me off we are 6 months into this game and i still have not unlocked some maps fully because people are in a rush .. i dont know if they do this because of timers or just plain selfish.

Timers are great!
There were a time in which my group got notice of server shutdown in 15min while doing an instance, that transformed our smooth-going pacific group, in an horde of barbarians with our tank named "Attila", and we passing over a boss and the trash mobs like a steamroller, to reach the endboss and finish him like about 1min left to shutdown.

That was epic!

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Originally Posted by waldo

My advice: take your own advice and don't do it. It is what it is, if you don't like it move on.

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This makes zero sense. Don't do what? Roleplay? In an RPG? Removing the timer hurts no one.

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Originally Posted by Gaist

I don't see the problem with this. I went into the dungeon to get loot, not to play "mystical pirate fairy princess", with some shmuck.

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Don't try to pretend that I mean to rp with random dungeon finder groups. Strawmen are unbecoming.

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Originally Posted by Slatervonjager

Please just stop. You and everyone else trying to find a problem with the timer obviously have no actual knowledge as to how servers work, and how things should be managed. So please, just stop already, you're wrong, anyone complaining about the timer is wrong, etc.

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Please explain to me why a timer is necessary for FFXIV when it is not necessary by a longshot in any other MMO I've played (including some pretty heavy hitters). And incidentally, your derision towards roleplayers doesn't actually make you a better person. You're playing an MMORPG; there is no high horse here.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Because the dungeon timers are "real" problems?

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Well, they are harming certain people's enjoyment of the game and are a symptom of poor planning. Yes, they are real problems.

I personally like the timers. I've really only been timed out a few times while I've been playing the game, and coincidentally, both were in Aurum Vale.

The rest of the encounters I've never had any issue clearing them within the allotted time frames.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Please explain to me why a timer is necessary for FFXIV when it is not necessary by a longshot in any other MMO I've played (including some pretty heavy hitters). And incidentally, your derision towards roleplayers doesn't actually make you a better person. You're playing an MMORPG; there is no high horse here.

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Servers. Different data. Experience.

1. Those other MMO's might not have the traffic/popularity as FFXIV, so they don't need a timer since there is plenty room in their server. Forecast probably shows that traffic won't change in the foreseeable future.
2. Those other MMO's HAD PLENTY OF TIME to adapt to the traffic. For example WoW, were you there at launch? And even a couple of years in, there were queues in the log-in screen. And timers weren't a problem then since the ease of "duty finder, dungeon finder" wasn't implemented yet. You had to make your groups and actually find then go to each and every instance you needed to go to. That will automatically reduce the load on their instances since people won't just be mashing the "queue up" button while waiting, they'll have to work for it and it probably discouraged a lot of people going to faraway places for example.
3. Their servers are set-up differently, every game does.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Well, they are harming certain people's enjoyment of the game and are a symptom of poor planning. Yes, they are real problems.

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You described yourself as a RPer, nothing wrong with that. I just don't see how a session can last more than 90-120 mins, and if it does go over that, why not just re-do the instance? Will it inconvenience you somehow, maybe. But guess what, it applies to both RPers and players that run the dungeon normally. There are solutions to your (vast minority) problems, and the rest are happy they are there to mitigate long queues and apply balances.

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Originally Posted by chocomaid

1. Those other MMO's might not have the traffic/popularity as FFXIV, so they don't need a timer since there is plenty room in their server. Forecast probably shows that traffic won't change in the foreseeable future.
2. Those other MMO's HAD PLENTY OF TIME to adapt to the traffic. For example WoW, were you there at launch? And even a couple of years in, there were queues in the log-in screen. And timers weren't a problem then since the ease of "duty finder, dungeon finder" wasn't implemented yet.

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I would hope that SE is not repeating the same mistakes regarding server infrastructure that other MMOs made ten years ago (same goes for other aspects of game design). An industry is supposed to learn and grow. We should not have to retread the same learning period every single time a new MMO releases. (WoW, incidentally, does not have dungeon timers, and the only times I have ever received the "instance servers full" message were during the release of ToC following Ulduar, at the peak of the game's popularity, and a couple times in Cata with the release of a new dungeon. This message disappeared pretty much after a day or two each time.)

@Tiggy below me: Nothing is stopping you from leaving a group if you decide it's too bad to continue. You are never trapped in a dungeon, with or without a timer.

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Originally Posted by illuminapanic

I'm a little misinformed here. Can you direct me to any source stating that games have had severe issues with dungeon timers that it was immensely game breaking?

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A problem does not have to be "game breaking" to be a problem. What ever happened to consumers demanding improvements of the products they purchase? We should not allow MMOs the luxury of re-inventing the wheel every time a new one releases. Hundreds of MMOs have come before FFXIV; that's hundreds of opportunities to learn better system design.

So that no matter how terrible the group is I only have to dedicate X amount of time to it before I'm allowed to move on. I do not want to be trapped in a dungeon with a group until it's finished just because they need to learn. I help people all the time, and I always stick with the group I get in the roulette. However, If I get a group who just can't do it in the time allotted then I want to be let go eventually.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Cut

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I'm a little misinformed here. Can you direct me to any source stating that games have had severe issues with dungeon timers that it was immensely game breaking?

get rid of the timer problem by making the dungeons open world.. only making the bosses instanced (these can be timed.. if time is reached they do an move that basically wipes everyone)... and adding a ton of story/quests to do before entering it.. FFXI did this just fine.

Please SE, remove timers now!

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Originally Posted by Arkghyom

Please SE, remove timers now!

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SE says No.

Don't the timers disappear when you finish the dungeon? So you can spend the whole time RPing in your dungeon then. I know when I beat Twintania for the first time we spent some time taking screenshots after the kill and there was no timer. You also didn't have to leave the dungeon either.

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Originally Posted by farnfarn64

Don't the timers disappear when you finish the dungeon? So you can spend the whole time RPing in your dungeon then. I know when I beat Twintania for the first time we spent some time taking screenshots after the kill and there was no timer. You also didn't have to leave the dungeon either.

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At least in normal dungeons, you get booted out after 5-7 minutes if you complete it.

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Originally Posted by aray0002

Timers : well most of the replies you have rcvd are regards to beating the dungeon boss and getting out in time.

I have another gripe that has nothing to do with FIGHTING mobs.

Ever noticed the achievements you get for ( Mapping ) an area.

Well I noticed that i have a few dungeons that are not fully unlocked....because
1. Most runs spent in said dungeon are rushed and people don't go to certain areas because of either trash mobs or dead ends . Pisses me off we are 6 months into this game and i still have not unlocked some maps fully because people are in a rush .. i dont know if they do this because of timers or just plain selfish.

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Play as your tank, lead your group anywhere to your heart content

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Please explain to me why a timer is necessary for FFXIV when it is not necessary by a longshot in any other MMO I've played (including some pretty heavy hitters). And incidentally, your derision towards roleplayers doesn't actually make you a better person. You're playing an MMORPG; there is no high horse here..

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I would rather not get locked in a dungeon with people who will refuse to vote abandon on content they aren't capable of completing and risk a 30 minute timeout in the stead of actually completing said instance in the 15 minutes it actually takes( given its not fresh content). SE is catering the majority with better server stability, I am much more comfortable with this instead of catering to the few who would like it just because they want to role play, there are non instanced areas which are suitable for that, and given the long timer as is, you should have more than enough time to role play and complete content in a timely manner.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

People complain about not being able to learn encounters, but my one gripe with this game is the timers on dungeons...why??

I don't get it.

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Because the world is for the majority blue not green.

*cough* Warning: Long post.

The example that Karnyboy gave can most definitely happen -- though in that precise one I would stipulate that if it's too late to do another 90 minute run, it would also most likely be too late to continue on for another hour or two to get to the end. Well, taking 85 minutes to reach and defeat the first boss might not happen that often at all. But the other day, me and three friends were doing Cutter's Cry - two of us had done it before, though only one of us really remembered anything about it. Me and the other one who hadn't done it before had looked at a quick breakdown of the dungeon and the boss mechanics, but for both of us words are just words. They don't really explain the reality of it.

The princess was... a pain. We lost count on the times we wiped, because we didn't manage to figure out the mechanics quickly enough for all of us to survive (mainly tank and healer). We didn't really mind that part, though. We finally did beat her, and found the next two bosses ridiculously easy in comparison. We wiped once on the sandworm due to general panic and mayhem. With twenty minutes left on the timer, we reached the last boss. Managed fairly well, but wiped (2/3 to 3/4 of the way through). Went in again with ten minutes left. Managed better, but with maybe ten percent left of the chimera's life, the dungeon timer ran out. D:
So without that timer, we would have won.

But one good thing about it was that I reached 45, so off I went to get myself some new shiny gear. And that's when the other first-timer realized... she'd ran it as THM instead of BLM ^^; And none of us had noticed.
(We ran it again the next day, me with my new shiny paladin armour, and my friend as a proper black mage. This time, we went through it a lot faster, both due to upgraded statistics and due to having learned the princess fight. We had a few deaths through it all, but only one of us four each time :p)

In general our group likes to take our time going through dungeons, looking at stuff or just stopping for a few minutes to talk. Our goal isn't necessarily to get to the end as quickly as possible, it's to have fun while doing it. So there have been plenty of times when the "half an hour left" notice has popped up before we've reached the last boss, even while doing low-level dungeons.

I'm not entirely sure what I think about the timers, but I do wonder if more people would maybe relax a little more during dungeon runs if there wasn't that constant stress of the timer. Because even if there isn't an actual worry over not being able to finish in time, there's always that sense of, "Can it be done faster?" Of, "Usually I get through it in less than 35 minutes, so I can't let it take longer than that," and similar thought processes. And of course, there will be those who continue that thought into, "If it takes longer, it means this group is so much worse than the people I usually get, and they are holding me back."

TL;DR - I think I'd like it more if there were two 'modes' to running dungeons (selectable similar to how you select languages of people you want to run with). Timed and untimed. Timed mode might give a bonus at the end (tomestones, exp, seals, gil, whatever) depending on fast you were. Untimed wouldn't give any extras, but could provide people with a more... well... casual run. Where there's time to learn the mechanics for first-timers (or slow learners), where people can explore, go through the entire map for exploring achievement and all the loot and monster exp, where you can stop and talk about stuff or look at that stunning waterfall in the background, and where role-players have a chance to play around.
Those who don't have the patience for exploration or newbies can simply not click that checkbox and just go for the higher reward of timed mode. Those who like both types of gaming can click both checkboxes and see where they land.

I'd rather it stayed, I remember back when AK was the only dungeon for myth, the queues would be full with just RESERVING the instances.
Atm, no one knows where the new tomes are from, if it's only a few select dungeons or coil, but if it ends up like AK again, a timer would be ideal is liberating space in the likely case that a team is just too slow to finish it.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

I'd rather it stayed, I remember back when AK was the only dungeon for myth, the queues would be full with just RESERVING the instances.

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You realize that implies really crappy servers on SE's part, right? Why should we settle for that kind of thing?

It doesn't imply crappy servers. It implies that SE is trying to be efficient. The wait times for things like AK and CT and Coil to an extent aren't because the servers are out of capacity but because they limit each dungeon to a set amount of simultaneous instances. The DF Servers can likely comfortably handle the peak traffic for simultaneous instances. Adding capacity past that maximum is just a waste of resources and money. The trick is certain dungeons are heavily popular at certain times of the week and even times of the day.

Say peak total traffic sits somewhere around 200 simultaneous instances. Servers can handle it fine, but without capping individual dungeons you could wind up with 150/200 instances being CT runs on a Monday night. No reservation waits for CT groups perhaps, but with CT dominating the instance servers, pretty near everything else might end up with wait times as they all try to share the remaining 50 instance slots. Cap CT at say 100/200 and you give the rest of the dungeons, trials etc. a bit more breathing room.

The alternative would be to increase capacity enough to support say 400 instances simultaneously. This is costly and a rather large waste as for upwards of 90% of the time half the server's capacity would go unused.

Removing the timer would potentially exacerbate the issues early in the week (still a LOT of groups timing out trying to clear Turns 4 and 5) and they'd potentially wind up HAVING to lean towards the extra capacity alternative.

why in gods green earth is this a problem?

joking aside, seriously how is a timer a problem? especially a 90 minute one at that. its more their for your health and sanity XD god knows i wouldnt want to be stuck in the same party for 90 minutes if they suck that bad.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

It doesn't imply crappy servers. It implies that SE is trying to be efficient. The wait times for things like AK and CT and Coil to an extent aren't because the servers are out of capacity but because they limit each dungeon to a set amount of simultaneous instances. The DF Servers can likely comfortably handle the peak traffic for simultaneous instances. Adding capacity past that maximum is just a waste of resources and money. The trick is certain dungeons are heavily popular at certain times of the week and even times of the day.

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And why isn't this a problem with other MMOs, both in ones with similar player numbers and ones with significantly more?

Timer is definitely intent to be like that, but also there are a lot of many other games that do not have timers on dungeons and they dont blow up. They probably should have a lot more and better equipment to handle all those instance but clearly SE dont currently have.

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Well, they are harming certain people's enjoyment of the game and are a symptom of poor planning. Yes, they are real problems.

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People occupying instances potentially forever and lagging things up would be more harmful to many more people's enjoyment than this is.

If you actually run the entire clock on any dungeon in this game, you pretty much did not deserve the win. All there really is to it. None of the dungeon timers are even remotely strict, unlike things like invisible "DPS check" timers.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

People occupying instances potentially forever and lagging things up would be more harmful to many more people's enjoyment than this is.

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Again: This is not an issue in other MMOs (I can count the number of times I've gotten "instance servers are full" in WoW on one hand, and both times were on the first day of highly anticipated raid releases), so why should we accept it as necessary in XIV? I'm not saying that it isn't "necessary" as the servers stand now, but I do think it's a symptom of cutting corners on SE's part in related areas, and as consumers, we really shouldn't support our service provider cutting corners like that.

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Originally Posted by Seif

Don't think about it too much because it's there for your own good.

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Yea... I don't need SE mothering me, thanks.

Honestly the times when this is an issue are so few and far between that the upside of having plenty of free instances for raids outweighs the negatives.

The term "timers" here honestly sounds a lot more negative than what it is in reality as you never feel like you're "on the clock".
If the time runs out in 100% of the cases you're in a group that doesn't have skill to complete it anyway.

Don't think about it too much because it's there for your own good.

This is still such a non issue. If you get enjoyment out of an empty dungeon with zero exploration (still waiting for that list of alternate clear paths and numerous additional routes you could take) more power to you...but they're designed obviously for exp and loot vomit.

Dungeons with timers are like a drive-thru. You sit in the queue and wait for the person in front of you to be done at the window so that you can drive up for your turn. Wanting no timer so that you can roleplay is like some customer discovering that the dude at the window is an old friend and sitting there chatting and holding everyone else up. The obvious solution for the drive thru scenario would be for the customer to say "I can see you're busy, let's meet up later somewhere else," or the dude at the window to say "Hey I'm busy, let's meet up later somewhere else." They still get to sit and chat, but they don't hold up the drive-thru line for everyone else.

tl ; dr There's a time and place for everything and while it would be nice to roleplay in dungeons, the fact remains that you can roleplay outside of a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Yea... I don't need SE mothering me, thanks.

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I will mother you.