My opinions:
Job skill requirements to be adequate (highest to lowest)
MNK > SCH > DRG > WHM > WAR > SMN > BRD > BLM > PLD
Job responsibility in a normal setting (highest to lowest)
PLD/WAR > WHM/SCH > MNK/BRD > SMN/BLM > DRG
Job skill required to be exceptional (highest to lowest)
MNK > PLD > SCH > WAR > WHM > DRG > BRD > DRG > BLM
Generally, the lower skill it takes to be adequate, the higher your responsibilities are in an average setting. Subsequently, the more responsibility you have, the harder it is to become an exceptional player, due to skill balance and resource management. With the exception of BLM which I think is faceroll easy to play and doesn't end up with a lot of responsibility in most cases through at least T4.
Again, my personal opinion - I have played every class but BRD @ 50 across my two characters.
Does tanking carry more responsibility than most?
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02-06-2014, 02:08 AMEhayte
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02-06-2014, 02:18 AMInstrumentality
Tank and healer screw ups are amplified by people dying. DPS screw ups are demonstrated by the boss not dying. Alert party members should notice deficiencies in everyone's playstyles (including their own), and work together with other group members to improve and progress through content.
People that get angry over people making mistakes should quit getting mad at video games. -
02-06-2014, 02:18 AMOmegaSinXIm not sure why so many people are scared to tank. Its pretty easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergadeth
Some fights require research but for 95% of content; your job stays the same. No matter if your are alone or with 20 people.
1. Hold Aggro
2. Rotate CD's at right time. -
02-06-2014, 02:26 AMAlrikRougeIMO, every role is "easy" as soon as you know all the bits and pieces involved in it. Once you know the rotations, you get the most out of your DPS and enmity generation. Once you know the mechanics of a fight or the pulls of a dungeon and what to expect, healing, DPS and tanking are all easy. But that's because the person doing it knows what they are doing, how to do it, and when. And it becomes even easier when they know what NOT to do and when NOT to do something.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroX686
In my point of view, all DPS roles (not actions, such as tank or healer attacking) are the kill-support positions. Without them, most bosses are impossible to kill due to the mechanics of the fights, although with properly geared healers, you could even take out Titan HM (there are videos on that). Not sure about the Ex primals, but I'm sure there are those out there already trying it. While the dungeons themselves could be done, everything takes longer to get done.
As far as responsibility for the party, IMO both the tank and the healer have equal amounts: if the tank doesn't hold aggro, everyone can get hit or killed. If the healer doesn't heal everyone including the tank, everyone can die. If the tank holds all aggro, everyone can do their jobs. If the healer keeps everyone healed, they can do their jobs. I have yet to see a dungeon or raid done without at least one healer and one tank in the party. And I don't mean finishing a dungeon or boss when the tank and/or healer die. (Though, when I think about it, you could probably pull it off on a CM run)
But what people are usually held responsible for is also important - a tank is held responsible for moving everyone through the dungeon as fast or as slow as everyone likes or wants it to be done. They are also held responsible for keeping attacks on everyone else in the party to a minimum (the minimum being mechanics - for example: boss randomly casts magic against a random member, or adds are not expected to be gotten like in AK on the first boss or just ignoring them on the second boss).
And a healer is also held responsible for helping on DPS should the tank be highly experienced and not at all squishy.
To sum it all up, again in my humble opinion, I think both healer and tank are held responsible for most aspects and the flow of things. Bad tank or bad healer, usually things fall apart. Having both at the same time, it never succeeds. Bad or slow DPS, you could still potentially pull things off. Note I said bad or slow, not "no DPS".
But because the tank is held responsible for the flow and movement of everything in addition to their basic function of holding enmity, I think they have slightly more responsibility then the rest. Not by much, but by a small margin above a healer.
Note well - none of the above is really in discussion of skill and expertise involved in using a character. I myself have no immediate intention of learning the rotations and skills necessary to be a perfect MNK or DRG, or how to set things up perfectly as a SCH to single handedly heal Titan Ex or Coil. The above is all about my views on who is more responsible for and who is held more responsible for what in a party. -
02-06-2014, 02:36 AMMailstrumQuote:
Originally Posted by JeTaisNoobie
well turn 1-4 we have picked up an extra dps and solo healed these turns before. also turn 2 is so easy now with this enrage strat. a well gear'ed healer can solo heal it with 2 extra dps.. 1 tank 1 heals goes dps. We 1 tank 1 heal this turn all the time. -
02-06-2014, 02:39 AMAureliamiYeah coil 1-4 is easily solo healable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailstrum
The only reason turn 5 is very hard to solo heal(but not impossible) is RNG. You need a 2nd healer for when the healer gets put in conflag or prison by dreadknight. So the 2nd healer only really needs to spam some heals for 5% of the fight and the other 95% not do anything...
.. and you can still beat turn 5. But that 5% of the time when you need a 2nd healer will probably cause a wipe if you try to attempt it with 1 healer, sadly. -
02-06-2014, 02:47 AMTraek
Eh, I love my tank and there is certainly responsibility involved, but I don't think it needs to be an epeen thing between classes. In reality I like to do things on other classes cause I'm more inclined to *zone out* while playing. You can react to things like plumes and stomps etc. while pew pewing with your rotations. I feel as though tanking you must be a lot more active to keep the flow going, pre planning CDs, dodging the extra Melee mechanics, picking up adds (pre planned BB/Halone), and tank swapping. Its just all very engaging. This is much of what I enjoy about tanking, but doing things on it outside my static causes me to enjoy the game less as I try to rely on randos playing well, and my efforts are being wasted.
I'm sure the anxiety of "leading" the party is what keeps some people from tanking, but I'm not so sure responsibility is the culprit. Responsibility can be argued for all the classes, and mistakes recognized in all classes. I can tell very quickly when a healer isn't up to snuff in things like Titan EX, even on my DD. Healers will instantly know when DD isn't up to snuff, as their mana bar drains from unnecessary heals and raises. Pretty obvious bad DDs when mechanics aren't being downed in time, close to enrage time, or if you are parsing them. Its a team effort on a majority of fights and the "responsibility" conversation in the General Forums thread really just came down to epeening IMO. -
02-06-2014, 02:55 AMPiedPiperQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
I agree with this pretty much. To be adequate, particularly at paladin, you only need to spam your combo and not get hit by landslides. Warrior requires you to semi-intelligently use inner beast since they are still so squishy.
That said, many in this thread have underestimated the maximum potential of tanking classes. Ehayte is right in saying that the most skill to maximize the class is in pld and war, and when you play with people who have maximized those classes, it does have a profound impact.
In all honesty though, most players are awful. At all classes. Most random dps, even at high item levels, do piss poor dps. Numerous party finders for titan ex i've seen the ilvl set to 85+ and then out dps'd one or two of the actual dps as paladin. If I am in the warrior off tank role in that fight, I routinely beat at lest one dps.
We just notice bad tanks and healers more than bad dps, because in most fights there are enough other dps to carry a bad dps. One skilled dps can carry a bad through demon wall, 3 skilled can carry a bad through the primal fights. Even healers often get carried (this is mostly how solo healing started, people realized they could survive even when the other healer was bad and just went with it). Tanks, however, cannot carry each other. Often a healer can carry a bad tank, but even the best tank can do little to carry the other. "Bro, i'm at 5 stacks on ifrit bro, provoke bro" "Huh? But my dps will go down if i put on defiance."
Most players, however, are awful. They have very low actions per minute, don't understand how to use off gcd abilities off the gcd, and linger between gcds without performing actions. On any class, if your APM is low, you will perform poorly.
Experince: PLD & WAR i90, DRG & BRD i83, SCH & WHM i80 Monk iWhoplaysmonk? -
02-06-2014, 04:31 AMSqua
I have relatively geared healers,dps and tanks in this game. I will basically only do Roulette on my TANK, since I will be guaranteed a win most likely. On my healer DPS, even with similar gear, I will certainly not be guaranteed a win and run into a lot of drama in these positions, and groups falling apart, etc... I normally wont queue on anything but a tank (since I can basically do a DPS role, and really help healers as well). Tanks are probably the most important role atm in a combination for gear + experience/knowhow
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02-06-2014, 11:38 PMAltimisThat my opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
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02-07-2014, 12:49 AMTheGlowActually, we had no problem doing Turn 3 without any healers and only 1 tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeTaisNoobie
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02-07-2014, 01:10 AMJeTaisNoobieAre you serious? Turn 3 is pretty much 2 man-able.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGlow
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02-07-2014, 04:43 AMBigby
I just want to clarify something. All 4 man dungeons, CT, HM Primals and Coil Turn 1-2 are boring and easy for EVERY class, not just tank. That leaves extreme primals, and T4-5. I believe all this content is harder for tank then DPS. That said, I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Tank is easy. Easier then healer? Definitely. Easier then DPS? lol.
I wanted to conclude with the primal reason I believe people don't play tank: No Pew Pews. -
02-07-2014, 05:41 AMAsdamineI think healer is easier, but that's just me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigby
/macroicon "Physick"
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "physick" <t> -
02-07-2014, 06:45 AMVargasVermillion
I would describe tanking as difficult to pick up, easy to master. it's all a matter of knowledge. Once you know how hate works, how each cooldown works, learn the dangers of different mobs and their abilities and of course boss mechanics it's really quite simple. it's daunting at first but once you pick it up it's easy from then on. granted when i say easy I'm talking more about the mechanics behind the role, actual content is rather subjective and can be more difficult then other roles depending on the fight.
As for why people who like tanking like it, I personally like it as i feel i get the most interaction with the mobs I also like being the protector and fights tend to revolve around what you're doing, only downsides are that if you screw up everyone notices and it has a big affect if you do screw up it's not for everyone but you should at least try it before you judge it. -
02-07-2014, 12:42 PMgivemeraptorsMy smoothest runs with the final boss in Copperbell HM is when the tank feeds the worm by leading the boss around the edge of the room. If you go in the right direction (clockwise?) you'll be right next to a few of the adds as they spawn too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
Typo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
I actually think that SMN is a harder class to play than you're giving it credit for, especially to be an exceptional one. Because they can Resurrect they can be invaluable if a healer bites it in a 4-man party. In an 8-man party they can keep up DPS by Swiftcast --> Resurrect --> Aetherflow whenever a DPS eats it. This requires you to look at the party bar and focus on mobs which is tough to do. Also, pet management is usually minimal, but for certain fights where you need to move your pet out of DoT AoE effects (burning circles, purple muck, Copperbell HM fire) it can be a real drain to keep track of everything while performing at A+ level. Being an adequate SMN is not terribly difficult. Just keep your DoTs up. -
02-07-2014, 04:10 PMGuardianX
My opinion as a whm healing is an easy job to master. I recently started a tank class and I am now a relic tank with DL gear. It's hard to tank because you need to know that map and all the fights. Alot of the time, ppl want to speed run and if I don't do it the right way, I get flak from other teammates.
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02-08-2014, 03:17 AMKatchii
Tanking isn't hard, it just requires you to know a fight frontwards and backwards, which is still true for the other classes, but if you screw up chances are the party will wipe whereas when someone else screw up, it can probably be recovered from.
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02-08-2014, 03:45 AMLeira_Raine
Most cases I don't find tanking boring because I try not to make it boring. Cad, for instance... tanking him is boring because you're just standing there. In Titan HM, you can at least time your shield bashes and slow down/stop tumults early. In dungeons you can run around like a spaz and make it interesting for people. It's just what you want to do with it really. I have to watch everyone's hate meter, health, have to try and occasionally stun a wolf from getting to a WHM if other DPS haven't reached it, switch to Sword Oath and go DPS tank.
P.S. Solo tanking chimera without any BRDs is fun. -
02-08-2014, 05:58 AMbokchoykn
ITT: "My job is the hardest. Your job is the easiest. Get on my level, noobs."
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02-08-2014, 06:04 AMbokchoyknThey fixed this months ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leira_Raine
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02-08-2014, 11:01 AMInstrumentalityMy job is super hard. I have to put up with my raid group standing in red circles while I stand still!Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
How dare they make me look competent, I am super bad and should die first! -
02-08-2014, 06:39 PMMenae
Tanking doesn't really carry more responsibility than any other job. It's just most NOTICEABLE. If a DPS uses the wrong ability, with a few exceptions in the late game, it's hard to tell. If a healer uses the wrong heal, the tank might die or it might be confused with the tank taking some big damage. If the tank loses hate, well, it's pretty obvious.
Without a tank, the group can't survive the boss damage. Without a healer, the tank (and thus, the group) can't survive the boss damage. Without DPS, the group can't kill the boss and it either takes forever or the group wipes to attrition/enrages/more opportunity for mistakes. That's why they call it the trinity folks; 'cuz you need all three. -
02-09-2014, 09:56 AMWadokaBut we only need the three roles, because that's the way people have been designing MMOs since... shucks, UO? I can't remember. The concept of Tank didn't exist prior to. It wasn't there in the old text-based games, it wasn't there in the original Neverwinter Nights on AOL, it wasn't there in tabletop Dungeons and Dragons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Menae
Philosophically I disagree with this "Holy Trinity" because it has soooo many issues - starting with, if you're fighting an intelligent enemy, it doesn't matter how many flashes or "hate-generating" attacks or taunts you throw out... an intelligent enemy is ALWAYS going to kill the Healer first, come what may, if they identify a Healer amongst the attackers. Or, if they have a certain level of another kind of experience... "I smell... bat guano. And sulfur. HOLY CRAP GET THE MAGE! MAGE MAGE MAGE KILL IIIITTT...!"
Heh. Another day for that discussion :) -
02-09-2014, 11:07 AMIndigoHawk
The idea of a tank for the trinity is that enemies fight the tank because they must, not because they want to. A lot of times MMOs portray tanking with taunts, like a generic yell. Another way to think of tanks is like a grappler. If you try to run by to kill the healer or the mage, the tank grabs you as you run by and holds you so that his allies can kill you. You fight the tank because you can't ignore them safely, not because you want to fight them.
Most MMOs don't have precise directional attacks. If they did (and better positional code than FFXIV), then tanks could get targets of opportunity on anyone who ran by or wasn't facing the tank. It would achieve a similar result, that enemies would need to face the tank when the tank gets in range and be cautious about disengaging.
The problem you point out is that most tank skills look like they can be ignored. That's an unfortunate portrayal, not a problem with the tank role. -
02-09-2014, 12:17 PMSwordCoheirI pretty much share the same sentiment. It's not that tanking is easy, as experiences vary person to person, but people tend to take tanks for granted. I mean there are always things you can do to really improve your performance or make fights go smoother, faster, and more interesting, for instance on KB if your watching a tower next to him you can always run in and throw out Circle, Spirits, and Fracture before the Towers light up again, you just have to find your own way to make the fight more entertaining for you without taking unnecessary risks.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueMage
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02-09-2014, 01:59 PMashwich
tanking is easy, but tanking carry a lot of responsibility. those are 2 separate things. typically when tank screws up someone dies, could be tank/healer in most cases. sometimes dps. so depends on the situation it could mean more or less a wipe. that's a lot of responsibility.
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02-09-2014, 06:13 PMgranzNot sure if i agree with most
I think tanking is a hard job, they carry the burden of the whole party. A good tank would not just tank, but find new strategies to win the fight. A good tank is never an idle tank, meaning they will always have something to do, like casting stone skin on healers, etc. The Tank job, mainly paladin, is more than just a meat shield.
When you've played with a good tank, you realize how inefficient a bad one is. The main problem why i think there isn't many tanks, is because most people stomp out learning tanks, and lump them with bad tanks. -
02-11-2014, 05:53 AMinkuzen
I agree with granz and ashwich. Tanking isn't hard, there's just a lot of responsibilities that have lumped in with tanking. People taking on tanking for the first time won't know what is expected of them. Especially first time MMO players, which would be the learning tanks. After a few parties of angry party members I can see a learning tank just be like "Well F**K THAT!" Because they had no idea what was actually going wrong. I kind of feel like there should be tank coaching for noobs :P While there are many tutorials and compendiums on the forums, some players just don't come here.
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02-11-2014, 11:43 PMElkya95
I gotta admit that when I started the game I did choose Gladiator because it looked pretty and wasn't prepared for people assuming that I would be the leader, so it usually went to the DPS or a Healer to lead. Because of that I don't think they actually do carry more responsibility, it should rather fall on the person who's done the instance before and sure if everyone's new THEN it can fall on the tank by default since they run in first anyway.
I did stop tanking for a while after feeling the pressure and me being new, this is my first MMO and all that, but I still had to lead sometimes on my bard while leveling, simply because I had done it before. Now I am comfortable leading, but really it falls to the person who's cleared it in my opinion.
(err sorry if it's clunky and hard to understand what I write >.> ) -
02-12-2014, 10:09 AMMakuJust pictured a Lala tank jumping and grabbing onto Titans Leg to stop him. Such an adorable image.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoHawk
Tanking in FFXIV (in my opinion of course) is by far the easiest of the three. Healer is the hardest because you have to compensate the most for others mistakes. For me Hardest = most fun. DPS is second hardest but really other than Healer I don't find DPS or Tank hard and even then healing isn't hard with an on the ball party. DPS gets second because they have to watch their enmity, mostly do to the tank being less geared then them. Tanks have it the easiest. There is a set rotation for max enmity and if you do that and the DPS are watching their enmity you are doing your job. Tanks jobs became a little more complex with the addition of EX primals and tank switching but even then I think tanking is the easiest job.
The above being said Healers and Tanks have far higher pressure to perform cause their mistakes are so easily noticed and if someone dies it is "always" one of our faults. But even with the higher pressure tanking is still a breeze and thus boring.
The boring play style matched with the crazy pressure is why there is a tank shortage. Healers on the other hand have the same if not slightly higher pressure to perform but the healer's job is also fun (for some, myself included) and thus the shortage of healers that was originally seen is now gone (at least on my server and in my DF group). -
02-15-2014, 09:15 AMUmero
No pressure playing in JP server. I have no idea what they are talking about when we fail. I guess the pressure only comes from how civilized and educated people are within the party.
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02-19-2014, 07:38 AMMarxam
Yes.
/10char -
02-20-2014, 12:32 AMDavkis
eh compared to what? dps has it the easiest mostly in coil ex primals and any other pvp really. whm and tanks require most out of everyone in groups so I dont know what u r saying.
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02-20-2014, 10:44 AMborderlander
i am new to this sort games i am a tank and learning but if you lose 5sec aggro everybody gets mad and thats wy there are almost no tanks
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02-20-2014, 11:53 AMTaharaThis kind of sickens me, especially the part about healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aureliami
Saying that in 8 man teams ALL content can be done with 1 healer...you're full of it. saying that a healer is being "carried" if there's 2 healers is taking it waaaay too far. Not only do you come off as an elitist prick, but you lack an understanding of the point of a party. Everyone works together and it's a team effort. the only way it's a "carry" is if someone dies at the start and the group clears it without them. Sorry, but this post just made me remember why I HATE most of the competitive player base. -
02-20-2014, 12:15 PMTaharaYou missed out on 3.5 seconds in between skills compared to what you could have done manually. That's at least 1 extra heal (and that's just on heals on the gcd timer).Quote:
Originally Posted by Asdamine
Bad healer is bad. -
02-20-2014, 12:53 PMWowSuchName
My main is tank and recently start playing healer, I must say healing does really carry more responsibilities.
- If tank make mistake, healer has to pick it up
- If healer make mistake, healer has to pick it up
- If DPS make mistake(s), healer has to pick it up.....
After playing Tank, the enjoyment is you take full control of the situation such as pace, positioning and damage mit and etc.
But after playing healer, I felt that I take zero control of the situation my performance is base on how other people perform (you can't really be pro solo heal in team of bad players that die/raise every 30 secs). At most, I can do is top-up people HP as soon as possible and hope no one make silly mistake. -
02-20-2014, 01:42 PMCeodore
Hardest to easier jobs: Healer, Tank, DPS. If any one doesn't understand this, then they are seriously mistaken. By far, healing is the hardest and most stressful job in this game. Healers have to constantly make up for the mistakes of others, and when a group fails, it truly is rarely the healer's fault, but healers constantly get blamed. And for the record, I am a tank. And I will never proclaim to have the hardest job. However, to even humor the idea of DPS having it tough is a joke. They rarely have much responsibility besides throwing out all their oomph into attacks. Yeah, there are some tactics that require them to do this and that. But it pales in comparison to healing or tanking. If a DPS cries that I moved a mob to get out of an AOE so I take some less damage and make it easier on my healer to heal, then they can shove it. good DPS are a dime a dozen. A tank's first priority should be, and for me is, the healers. Without them, the group doesn't have a chance.
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02-20-2014, 05:06 PMHollowedYou must not do Coil much with this statement. I personally would love to see someone solo heal T5 or a bad healer get carried through T4, I have carried a bad healer through t4 and it was VERY noticeable, just saying. :xQuote:
Originally Posted by Aureliami