Why give WMs abilities that we're asked NOT to use so much?

For Titan extreme, I will say that if all you're only using is a single medica II + medica for first set of stomps, and then a cure III for first geocrush, there is no way you should be pulling hate unless your tank is either under-geared in relation to you, or simply isn't good at maximizing enmity gains. Out of all my attempts, the highest enmity I've gotten after first phase is 50% doing this. Now if you're paired with another WHM then you both don't want to be using cure III for geocrush as that will be overkill, instead 1 should be on Cure III duty and the other should top off with medica to minimize overheal.

I think people tend to forget that WHM is one of the most unforgiving jobs existing right now due to having so many mechanics working against you at all times (both job-based mechanics and enemy-based mechanics). You can't go all out like in other MMOs because tanks don't get nearly the amount of aggro nearly as quick as other games allow.

The key to playing WHM is not knowing when to heal, knowing when NOT to heal. This game as a way of really punishing you for doing your job because WHM is so dependent on the party doing what they need to do. If too many people are getting hit, that's more heals and more enmity. If there's no bard, that's more risk of going OOM if you have to heal unnecessary damage. If the tank isn't doing a good job, that's more risk of you pulling the mobs. WHM requires perfection from all 8 people. If too many people aren't performing at max capacity, I'd recommend switching to SCH as they can cover for people's mistakes better and don't have as much of a problem with mana and enmity.

after a SoS pop its usually safe to do whatever you want, only the first minute you even have to watch your aggro indicator o.o
medica1 for phase1, not too hard to cover everyone with that for a while

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Originally Posted by Marciano_Bozzelli

To add a fact to this thread, I'm the SCH that told him not to cast Cure III. He casted it after the first jump in Titan HM with a tank that didn't have relic yet. After he pulled hate, he proceeded to run around the arena with Titan on his back, I typed "shroud", he didn't do so and died. The medica II and regen talks, I can not speak on.

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Honestly, I was hoping the tank would provoke while I attempted to stay away from being 2 shot. It all happened within about 5 seconds. I should have shrouded as well, as enmity is a group effort, but I wasn't ready for it I guess. You were awesome in that fight, BTW. Please don't think that I'm trying to disrespect you by including your cure III suggestion in this thread.

My point was in general though. I used that fight as an example, but I've also been asked not to use certain abilities in other fights as well. The thread was more about the fact that WMs can't use their whole tool kit like a Scholar without learning perfect timing on every fight. As is, healing a dungeon/boss encounter as a WM is more about learning the fight(s) than reacting. Where as a Scholar can just react.

This is the only game I've ever healed in that punished me so hard for simply using my abilities. I've always been a reactive healer and in most games, I try to keep people topped off at all times. I guess I need to break that habit if I want to continue to WM in this game.

Scholar's not having to learn perfect timing etc? Have you played the job? SCH is all about being proactive and knowing when to use what. When's the perfect time to toss your sacred soil? Should you use one of your aetherflow stacks on sacred soil or save them for lustrates? Also having to cast succor preemptively before incoming aoe damage, when's the right time to use virus, and when's the right time to use your fairy's aoe magic def buff and healing potency buff. End of Rant.

As a WHM, if you're in Titan HM for example with a non-relic tank that isn't so well geared it is your responsibility to use your common sense and not use your healing abilities as liberally as you'd like. The way I heal when paired with an i90 tank is not the same way I'll heal with a AF1 tank. Of course you'll run into situations where you'll grab hate after tossing the first medica I, in which case it's a tanking problem.

I remember this from back when HM was a thing. they told me not to use it and i told them to stfu, i know what im doing. They gave u a threat meter and a fancy skill called Shroud of saints. you know u are gonna get hate with Med II so when u see that little button turn red, use SoS. Titan will immediately turn back around. party healed, no harm done.

in Ex, your tanks will already have an i90 weapon and be able to grab a generous amount of enmity right from the start. I'm full i90 and can cast cure III and med II for days and will never see titan turn to me.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

"Don't use Regen, you'll cause threat!"
"Don't use Medica II, You'll cause threat!"
"Don't use Cure III, You'll cause threat!"

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for clarity, keep this info in mind
Regen
Never use it at the very end of a fight of trash mobs, or at the very beginning......unless the tank can get the whole group of mobs with an aoe, the mobs will chase after you (use stoneskin for those specific moments), other than that, regen is ok to use (alot of whms dont understand this concept because they have no level of intelligence or just plan lazy, so most people just say dont)

medica 2
pulls alot of threat, should not really ever be used during trash pulls unless your trying to dps, and even then still be careful. bigger longer fights like ultima and the primals, this skill is more acceptable, but should not be used during the first phase, and in some fights, up to first three phases. Example, titan HM, alot of healers start using it during phase 1, thats just stupid......you dont need it, it overheals, wastes mp, and if you overdo it, ur gonna pull threat.....a decently geared sch and whm using succor and medica 1 will usually top people off from most basic aoes

cure 3
honestly, idk why this spell really exists, because its usefulness is very rare. yes its a decent heal spell, if you get a proc from cure 2, its an awesome heal........but limited to iirc 6 yalms. this spell also does generate alot more threat than medica, and probably almost on par with medica 2, unless your topping melee dps and tank off near the end of the fight, this should never be used in during trash pulls...during bosses, you should probably wait until the third or fourth complete combo by the tank

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Originally Posted by warren-ragnarok

cure 3
honestly, idk why this spell really exists, because its usefulness is very rare. yes its a decent heal spell, if you get a proc from cure 2, its an awesome heal........but limited to iirc 6 yalms. this spell also does generate alot more threat than medica, and probably almost on par with medica 2, unless your topping melee dps and tank off near the end of the fight, this should never be used in during trash pulls...during bosses, you should probably wait until the third or fourth complete combo by the tank

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Extreme mode and any other fight that requires your team to stack. The pros for this skill is the fast CD and the heal potency is higher than Medica and is a direct heal compare to Medica II. The downside is for your team member to stack in which case extreme is your answer.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

Extreme mode and any other fight that requires your team to stack. The pros for this skill is the fast CD and the heal potency is higher than Medica and is a direct heal compare to Medica II. The downside is for your team member to stack in which case extreme is your answer.

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Also CT and Ultima HM. Cure III has a number of uses - though still limited - since its buff.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Also CT and Ultima HM. Cure III has a number of uses - though still limited - since its buff.

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More then that. Cure3 is akin Lustre. They are the super secret weapons that turn the tides of battle if used right. It used to be crappy, but now it's a larger radius(6yams) is the hottest spell in the whm arsenal.

Any phase change becomes simple, and even useful in other situations T2-T4 for example, etc. 6yam isn't that close anymore. You don't have to "stack-stack"

You really don't even need a sch sacred when holding cure3 properly, which free's up the sch to keep those lustre.

And pretty much cure3 is the secret to solo healing stuff. For titan ex and know the add phase really well, you can cure 3 the MT and everyone just sitting behind titan (6yams is just enough), baiting landslide, move to south west, then south, done. fully healed MT and all(most) dps.

Titan Ex hate management can be an issue only if tanks don't have their stacks management right. There is a change phase that pld/war have to get on and off sword/defiance changes. That's the only vulnerable phase of pulling threat. And really it's very very much a tank problem then a healer problem.

Considering that you really shouldn't heal enough in titan ex to take threat, because of his script (dodge dodge jail dodge). It's pretty weird.

sounds like you had bad tanks or were over healing. all of the spells you mentioned when you used correctly can make life a cake walk for a whm. the trick is not over healing with them

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

"Don't use Regen, you'll cause threat!"
"Don't use Medica II, You'll cause threat!"
"Don't use Cure III, You'll cause threat!"

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With all three there is just a right and wrong time to use them

Regen is handy, but should never be used prior to a pull. Else it is a useful healing tool that makes your job that much easier.

Medica II should never be used too early after a pull, or until the regen effect has either expired or about to expire (Medica is much better anyway most of the time).

Cure III ... well it should almost never be used. Although for those that do use it (it does have some uses), simply never use it right after a pull (or first first 1-2 drops in Titan HM - depending on how well your tank has enmity).

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Originally Posted by alhandra

sounds like you had bad tanks or were over healing. all of the spells you mentioned when you used correctly can make life a cake walk for a whm. the trick is not over healing with them

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Over healing is not a problem since in 2.1 since they increase threat many many folds. And you are expected to pre-cure and top off tanks due to burst damage mechanics of 2.1 fights.

The only reason overcuring is bad(besides wasting metric tons of mana) is during phase changes and tank swaps. It's a super small window that it happens, but healers can hit.

And frankly it's more a tank problem then a healer problem.

Turn 4 is probably the biggest overcure problem, since the phase change is a complete reset of enmity. That's why a good group can top off before phase changes, and let everything get establish before more cure spam.

Anyone that tells a whm not to do xyz...is a nutcase. It's a team effort. Tanks have to be on the ball, and so must healers and dps, etc.

In PUGs I can tell you how much mental swearing when no one group for medica2/cure3, everyone runs to a their little corner of the room, and tanks that seemly forget to get adds.

There's a little of everything, and then when nothing can't be helped...there's shroud. (Moogle king phase change before the nerf)

Tanks and especially PT should know better. Phase change, stack on the whm, because nothing is going to beat the cure3. The script is made that you have enough time to spread out and get in position after phase change.

I blame the "stupid" healing hate management.
To be more specific, the hate generated by regen effects during spawn phases. Coil T4 is a good example for that.

Nobody should have problems with hate in a normal fight, no matter which healing spell is used.
But if party members have a regen effect on them while at full health and a mob spawns or hate resets, the hate generated by 1 tic of regen means alot of hate for the healer.

The easiest solution would be if spawned adds would ignore the hate generated by already applied regen effects.

You shouldnt really have to use medica ii until after heart phase because people dont get hurt that much prior to that. its not until the stomps get really long that you'll the regen. other than that, every other aoe could be healed off with just a medica i.

You can use those abilities...you just have to use them correctly and not over heal. Tank could have been under geared also but that should not be too big a problem.

The main reason people complain is because WHMs really do pull hate. However, your abilities are insanely useful. Regen and Medica II are great abilities in the right situation, so it's only fair to balance them out with some downsides.

After a Geocrush in Titan, Cure III is fine. If your tank can't handle the enmity that it causes, you have bigger issues, honestly.

What I find works best in Titan is using Medica I in the beginning, and popping a second one if you really need it. Like someone mentioned earlier, remember there's another healer who should be helping spread the weight out a bit. Up yourself to Medica II as you feel you need it, but you don't need to rush.

Honestly, at this point, I may just stop using Medica II/Cure III any where other than FC groups. There's simply too much risk of getting threat.

- I was healing Turn 1 and popped a Medica II when half the group was down due to spit/slimes/etc (I was focusing on the main tank and wanted to heal everyone else while staying on the him). The split occurs maybe 15 seconds later and the new Cad murders me. I know, I know. I should have just used Medica I. But, again, it proves the fact that we have good abilities that we can't use a lot of the time.

- I was healing CT and I used a Medica II to group heal a bunch of the party so I could stay on the pot (it was being attacked at the time). And for some reason, Thanatos comes and murders me.

- Pharos Sirius? Medica II would be perfect for all of the damage being thrown around on all of the bosses, but if you throw one out, be ready to tank every add that spawns.

Basically, if there are adds in the fight, don't use Medica II.... at all. If there aren't, wait until half way through the fight to make sure the tank has enough aggro or you'll be tanking yourself. Either way, I'm only going to use Medica I in pugs from now on. The risk of using anything stronger just isn't worth it. Which again sucks, as I'm having to gimp my job in order to stay a live.

I swear, they should make a Conjurer tank. We'd have the best AOE threat in the game.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I swear, they should make a Conjurer tank. We'd have the best AOE threat in the game.

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Not to mention how easily we can pick up ALL the adds without even trying!

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

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I think the biggest question here is...why is half your group low on health during T1 pre-split? Post-split, I sometimes pop a single Medica II on Swiftcast if the party have been hit by a few pools of spit, but pre-split it should be a case of focusing MT, throwing a Regen the direction of the person dragging slimes around, and preparing for the split. Unless I misunderstood what's happening here. But yeah, during T1 post-split I find it's quite easy for people to take a ton of damage from spit, so a single Medica II can be really helpful. If your tank can't handle it, that's pretty bad!

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

- I was healing Turn 1 and popped a Medica II when half the group was down due to spit/slimes/etc (I was focusing on the main tank and wanted to heal everyone else while staying on the him). The split occurs maybe 15 seconds later and the new Cad murders me. I know, I know. I should have just used Medica I. But, again, it proves the fact that we have good abilities that we can't use a lot of the time.

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Shroud of Saints. Lots of WHMs seem to forget it's an enmity reducer and not just MP regen. If your OT still can't pick up the split, that's on the OT.

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I was healing CT and I used a Medica II to group heal a bunch of the party so I could stay on the pot (it was being attacked at the time). And for some reason, Thanatos comes and murders me.

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Never seen this happen - ever. The only way for this to happen would be if you foolishly used it on pull. The Nemeses, on the other hand, can be annoying if the remaining tanks don't pick them up but again, you have SoS for that. I keep up Medica II for the entire fight and have no problems with drawing too much aggro.

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Pharos Sirius? Medica II would be perfect for all of the damage being thrown around on all of the bosses, but if you throw one out, be ready to tank every add that spawns.

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I can't comment on this since I haven't done PS yet.

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Basically, if there are adds in the fight, don't use Medica II.... at all. If there aren't, wait until half way through the fight to make sure the tank has enough aggro or you'll be tanking yourself. Either way, I'm only going to use Medica I in pugs from now on. The risk of using anything stronger just isn't worth it. Which again sucks, as I'm having to gimp my job in order to stay a live.

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I don't see what's wrong with this. If anything, you have to tactically plan out your heals instead of mindlessly spamming them whenever. If your tanks are having trouble picking up adds, wait until they do and get a few solid enmity combos in, then continue on as if nothing happened.

I don't find Medica II that bad for generating aggro. Like in Phiros say you already have Medica II up before adds spawn. Let's go with worst case scenario and your team is already topped off from it so you are causing over heal enmity. So 50 potency of enmity per 3 seconds X 4. 200 potency divided amongst your 4 mobs is 50 potency per mob every 3 seconds. So if your PLD does a single 900 potency Flash that should keep the mobs off your heels for 48 seconds. You just have to run the mobs to the tank.
On T1 if your tank isn't using a combod RoH or Butchers (something like 3500 enmity potency) then they should be. It would make your 200 potency Medica II tick pretty minor.

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Originally Posted by Sirantha

I think the biggest question here is...why is half your group low on health during T1 pre-split?

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I'm still pretty new to healing in this game and I was in a learning group. So, a lot of the people didn't know the encounter all that well (still learning it myself and I didn't know the split was that close). Either way, one mistimed Medica II and we wiped. That seems overly harsh to me. I guess it boils down to me not liking the heal mechanics in this game. I'm used to being able to keep everyone at full health in other MMOs, where as this one punishes you severely.

Getting rid of the over heal threat mechanic and making us rely more on being efficient would be much more fun to me.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I'm still pretty new to healing in this game and I was in a learning group. So, a lot of the people didn't know the encounter all that well (still learning it myself and I didn't know the split was that close). Either way, one mistimed Medica II and we wiped. That seems overly harsh to me. I guess it boils down to me not liking the heal mechanics in this game. I'm used to being able to keep everyone at full health in other MMOs, where as this one punishes you severely.


Getting rid of the over heal threat mechanic and making us rely more on being efficient would be much more fun to me.

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I think what you may actually be having issue with isn't so much the healing mechanics but the fact that FFXIV doesn't allow healers to carry groups beyond a certain point. In other MMOs you can burn mp all day and never run the risk of getting aggro regardless of how poorly other players are playing (standing in avoidable mechanics, eating damage they shouldn't, not utilizing proper threat rotation) and still come out fine so long as your mana holds. In FFXIV you are part of a team and as such all of you must perform to a certain level. Its not that you can't keep people topped off, its that there is a tipping point where avoidable damage that isn't being avoided cannot be healed without threat of gaining emnity.

So while your job is to keep everyone alive its within a certain sphere of execution from ALL players not just you. Bad tanks and dps can't hide behind strong healers in this game to the same extent that they can in others. There are plenty of fights where you will need to be efficient and that's a huge part of being a WHM and that's without having to cover other players making mistakes. It can be frustrating because you can't carry those players but it makes the group have to be stronger as a whole which benefits everyone in the long run.