'Raids', really?

Squeaky bum time.

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Originally Posted by DGMart

Please... I'm hearing all this WOW bashing but if the graphics were like 14 I know some of you would be all over it. So hate all you want but the fact still stands millions of subs over 30k subs and I'm pretty sure I'm being generous.

The most complaints I hear from linkshell members is "but the graphics look too cartoony" yet a lot of them never even played WOW. Ignorance is what annoys me about people. If you're going to bash something don't bullsh*t about playing a game you've never played.

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It's blatant misinformation and hating on something they don't understand and have never touched.

"AH has bidding! Bidding sucks!" -- Less than 1% of transactions on the AH are bid-only. AH is almost exclusively buyout.
"WOW is easy!" -- Leveling is easy, normal dungeons are slightly less so, heroics are average, raids are moderately difficult, heroic raids are balls-to-the-wall hard.
"WOW doesn't promote group play!" -- WOW promotes group play from level ~12 onward. It's exclusively group play at end game.
"WOW is cartoony!" -- WOW has an exaggerated art style, but that doesn't make it cartoony. It has a very dark theme.
"WOW's quests are all boring!" -- Hasn't touched WOW questing since 2005. WOW has more quest variety than any MMO.

I can go on with this almost forever.

Then please do but you'd be preaching to the choir. :D

Weren't you just bashing WOW? Don't use sarcasm on the Internet! It doesn't go over well.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

Precisely! I am glad that at least one person understand what I'm talking about.
Yes, exactly, do we really want another copy-paste mmo that will fizzle in a year or two? Or something fantastic like XI that will last for many years.

I am hoping that the term used is to just get across the point that that's what it is, a dungeon crawl with a boss, and that for future instalments including those that are storyline related will have a better title that can be used in conversation and not all content will be summed up by one four letter word.

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FF strength was story, epic battles, great music, amazing atmosphere. I really do hope it doesnt get watered down to
one of the many mmo clones (one doesnt need to mention wow anymore since every current mmo is a clone of one another). And if they want, they will fail even harder then other companies who are working for the western market only.
These companies don't manage to get the wow playerbase, since they stick to wow. The only thing you get is a handful of the people who seen all in wow, but even then they are likely to return to wow.

FFXIV needs to find a niche to be profitable. A niche doesnt mean they won'T get enough subscribers, i think it will be the opposite even. They are not fast enough compete with the big players on the market. So they have to be inventive and smart and focus on other things. And focus on content that has high replay value and doesnt get outdated within a day or two. IF the game gets like most other mmos there is no point in playing it, since other mmos offer a shit load of content compared to what ffxiv will ever be able to cover... So SE, better be inventive, you won't stand a chance catering to the
saturated wow market imho.

On the subject of finding a niche and going off topic for a bit I completely agree. I think that what they need to do is go back to their final fantasy roots, look at what was really successful in the franchises and introduce popular characters/images/etc. It's what everyone's talking about, and they will eventually. Chocobos will eventually resurface. Cid is more likely than not to be in there somewhere. We already have moogles.

Their biggest strength is in their storytelling and they just have soooo much free reign now, the world needs more flavour and it's great because they have an opportunity to break out of the strict high-fantasy western setting and do something really great. These dungeons are a really great start, by introducing difficult content. That's a step in the right direction for sure.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Weren't you just bashing WOW? Don't use sarcasm on the Internet! It doesn't go over well.

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I'm sorry! Teach me your ways?

Whats in a name? They could call it some made up name like a Stip-tin-pop and it doesn't change the nature of the thing

Truth be told, complaining over the name of something shows you have a propensity to complain and voice displeasure....

Be happy, they could have called them Sissy-runs... Or fussy-panseons
In Englad they call cigarettes "Fags"
Shouldn't you go find a Phillip Morris message board to complain on?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Whats in a name? They could call it some made up name like a Stip-tin-pop and it doesn't change the nature of the thing

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Stigma. All a matter of taste I'm afraid.

Edit: I could! But I have no idea what that is, and I have no interest in feeding the trolls. In any case, we're all entitled to our own opinions, and just because we have the right to be anonymous sarcastic piss ants doesn't mean we ought to be.

And in case that wasn't clear enough, yes I was referring to you. :3

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

Stigma. All a matter of taste I'm afraid.

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As long as they are fun, I don't care what they call them...

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

On the subject of finding a niche and going off topic for a bit I completely agree. I think that what they need to do is go back to their final fantasy roots, look at what was really successful in the franchises and introduce popular characters/images/etc. It's what everyone's talking about, and they will eventually. Chocobos will eventually resurface. Cid is more likely than not to be in there somewhere. We already have moogles.

Their biggest strength is in their storytelling and they just have soooo much free reign now, the world needs more flavour and it's great because they have an opportunity to break out of the strict high-fantasy western setting and do something really great. These dungeons are a really great start, by introducing difficult content. That's a step in the right direction for sure.

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As long as it's not Cloud, Seph... Or any other main FF characters. SE just needs more imagination is all. High Fantasy is not that bad.

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Originally Posted by DGMart

As long as it's not Cloud, Seph... Or any other main FF characters. SE just needs more imagination is all. High Fantasy is not that bad.

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No, not bad at all, but a nice FF kick would make it better. Anything really that'd distinguish it from other high fantasy games and live up to its name.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

No, not bad at all, but a nice FF kick would make it better. Anything really that'd distinguish it from other high fantasy games and live up to its name.

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Now that I will agree with.. there is a certain "cool factor" missing from this game

Once they introduce classic Job names and more story related missions/quests we'll start to see that spark. I hope. We're just in a content drought I think waiting for this battle system patch. D:

Well, they aren't done modifying everything to revolve around 4 player and 8 player parties. All they really did was Reduce the max players from 15 to 8 and adjust the SP, The behest (Horrible adjustment if I might add), then add a buff for 4 and 8 players. 4 players is really meant to be a normal size group, while 8 will be the current raid size. Tho, I hope they do add more 4-player dungeons for higher ranks in the future. Making only a Raid dungeon for the high ranks and only a group dungeon for mid ranks to start off is probably a bad move. But we will see.

And yea, you will most likely need to have a job in order to be successful in the dungeons.

Speaking of group numbers, reducing max party size from 15 was really terrible. At least in the future I do hope they add a system that allows us to consolidate 2 groups. Switching people in and out for NM hunting is becoming a right pain in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

Speaking of group numbers, reducing max party size from 15 was really terrible. At least in the future I do hope they add a system that allows us to consolidate 2 groups. Switching people in and out for NM hunting is becoming a right pain in the ass.

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I agree about multiple parties...
15 was too big though....
I'd rather see a 2 or 3 party alliance than a 15 man group...

Nobody wants to re-brand them as box socials?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I agree about multiple parties...
15 was too big though....
I'd rather see a 2 or 3 party alliance than a 15 man group...

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15 was too big for 'normal party' size, which it was considered that at the time. It is good for raid size tho.

No, we should call them oubliette-clearing multi-person assemblages.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

No, we should call them oubliette-clearing multi-person assemblages.

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LOL "multi-person assemblages". What do you call solo content? Unassisted Character Development Journeys?

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

LOL "multi-person assemblages". What do you call solo content? Unassisted Character Development Journeys?

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Forever alone.

Haven't read through the entire thread, however it was something that made me wonder as well. I am assuming that they mean Raid in the way that you 'raid' something, in and out within the time limit, rather than Raid in the way that it is used in other MMOs. We shall see however when they start adding other dungeon style content to the game in the future.

They are buzzwords. Just like 'Final Fantasy' has sometimes been used as a buzzword to sell a bad game.

Probably late to this, but I think raid only pops up in the english version of one of his letters. The rest just call them instanced dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Probably late to this, but I think raid only pops up in the english version of one of his letters. The rest just call them instanced dungeons.

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He calls the 8 man r45+ dungeon a 'raid' dungeon. I think we will see more balancing that favors 4 player parties as regular parties and 8 man parties as EXP-Reducing/eliminating Raid parties.

I can definitely understand the desire for a name change to something less generic than raid. While it is just a name and isn't really an indicator of the content itself, it does kind of frame it and give it meaning. Besieged, Campaign, Dynamis, etc. all had their own "personality" their own purpose and motive. The names themselves were indicative of how the content related to the world as a whole. Dynamis being the realm of dreams, Campaign being centered around the Crystal War, Besieged a result of the constant raids by beastmen to obtain the Astral Candescence, and so on. With a term like raid you're left with a sort of homogenized feeling. While the content itself may be varied the mentality behind it is the same and the motivation never extends beyond "kill stuff and get items."

It's a small thing no doubt but in a game devoid of interesting content and in desperate need of world building, adding unique monikers for certain styles of gameplay would certainly help make things feel more purposeful.

@ Oscillate_Wildly, i like the way you keep track of your thread and comment on it!

Why does everyone bitch about raids/dungeons being used, its a blanket term. Bitch if they don't rename it. Technically FFXI had dungeons, not really raids but dungeons. They're just using terminology people are familiar with because they INVENTED IN EVERQUEST WHICH FFXI WAS INSPIRED BY!, not just effing WoW. So get over it, if you don't end up calling it something else by the time its implemented bitch then. Till then I think a lot of people are tired of the useless bitching about stuff we have no information for yet.

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Originally Posted by Focant

I can definitely understand the desire for a name change to something less generic than raid. While it is just a name and isn't really an indicator of the content itself, it does kind of frame it and give it meaning. Besieged, Campaign, Dynamis, etc. all had their own "personality" their own purpose and motive. The names themselves were indicative of how the content related to the world as a whole. Dynamis being the realm of dreams, Campaign being centered around the Crystal War, Besieged a result of the constant raids by beastmen to obtain the Astral Candescence, and so on. With a term like raid you're left with a sort of homogenized feeling. While the content itself may be varied the mentality behind it is the same and the motivation never extends beyond "kill stuff and get items."

It's a small thing no doubt but in a game devoid of interesting content and in desperate need of world building, adding unique monikers for certain styles of gameplay would certainly help make things feel more purposeful.

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What is the blanket term used to describe Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, and other similar places?

Endgame.

/10char

Some of those aren't end-game.

And end-game is not FF terminology.

But you only said blanket term, not FF term.

But some of those are not end-game.

And raid is a blanket term, yet people don't want to use it because it's not an FF term.

I don't personally like the term "Raid" either, but I think the term crops up in their letters to just simply explain the purpose of these new dungeon environments.
A Raid is: An entrance into another's territory for the purpose of seizing goods or valuables.
It is just a blanket term; they will probably name them on actual release into the game.

No, people don't want to use it because it's a stigmatized word used to refer to essentially all of WoW's endgame, complicated or not, it's bland it's boring it's dull. It's a little bit of WoW bashing, and a little bit of "oh no that's wrong."

How can you seriously consider a 4-8 person dungeon a 'raid' anyway? It's more like an exploration.

But don't go putting words in our mouths, you're free to your opinion as I am to mine, and to use the word 'raid' to potentially label all group related content from dungeons to missions from here on out would be a travesty and just plain retarded.

I can understand the trouble here. In XI we had events that were raid like but had names. These names came from a background given to the content, and therefore gave it meaning and purpose. Yes fun is important, but so is a reason to be in a place aside from the items that drop. I'm going to be happy with content to play but even if this were part of the Company system Id rather call them Company Dungeons than just a raid.

A large problem comes from localisation which I think has been a struggle when translating information. In jp a broad term they use is raidodungeon. The combination of raid and dungeon. This causes problems when trying to tell players about incoming subjects when the players come from varying games and backgrounds.

I think Focant mentioned that as well or perhaps that was in PM's...But yes! A purpose to being there other than to loot the coffers so to speak. Fun is a point as well and there's no doubt that it will be, but an added bonus would be for there to be a purpose. I think we were told in the letter? That quests would unlock the ability to enter the dungeons, and hopefully they'll be enlightening and give us some sort of incentive to enter.

Rather than to enter for the sake of entering.

Sadly i think these "raid" dungeons are SE's attempt to stop the bleeding.

hoping more players wont leave and possibly attracting ones that left.

i can remember the time that the road to "sky" was a worthy accomplishment. :)

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Originally Posted by Soma

Sadly i think these "raid" dungeons are SE's attempt to stop the bleeding.

hoping more players wont leave and possibly attracting ones that left.

i can remember the time that the road to "sky" was a worthy accomplishment. :)

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you would be surprised. even when I quit XI a year ago. how many times I would get a app to my sky shell from
somebody that didn't have access.