Gridanian Religion vs Reality: How much do the Hearers really hear?

The lack of miqote in gridania could simply due to lingering prejudices.

Gridania was pretty isolationist before garlean invaded eorzea. It was only after the gc formed that they became more accepting of foreigners.

Actually, to answer my own question, I just saw the text from the level 20 levequest "It's a Trap"

"The Keepers of the Moon who make Quarrymill their home have recently been troubled by Taker's Rot poachers who litter the area with their deadly iron leg traps. Three young women and a breeding male have already had to have their legs amputated after suffering wounds from these deadly hunting instruments. To ensure the clan suffers no further causalities, the Trappers' League has put a call out to local adventurers to assist in the search and disposal of hidden traps."

So there's at least one clan out in South Shroud that're living as Gridanians.

Also, that Keeper males are allowed out of the house long enough to take a walk in the woods. Except maybe not after this :P

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Originally Posted by FJerome

No, I get that. The reason I asked is because Keepers are starting to settle in Gridania but since we're seeing no males it makes it feel like the settlers are only individual females rather than family groups. Keeper males may be culturally expected to stay safe at home but if there are entire families actually living in Gridania I can't imagine their males are so sheltered that they couldn't go shopping for dinner at the Ebony Stalls or for a pint down at the Carline Canopy.

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Well it's not that they are all sheltered, there is free will which is why you have NPCs that defy the social norms of their race. Y'shtola certainly isn't hanging around with a Y nuhn all day, yet she retains the Y as a heritage marker, as many Seeker females do. Although they belong to different tribes, they chose to adventure out into the world rather than do what the U tribe did at the Forgotten Springs and stick together. The lore provides a foundation, but it's not a rule set so there will be plenty of exceptions. It's logical to think the same would be true for Keepers.The Coeurl King himself threw away the social "norm" of the Keeper way of life when he declared himself king. He's one of the exceptions of course. However, we must also take into account the rarity of males. Remember that Miqo'te (both Seekers are Keepers) are almost entirely female simply because of the nature of their reproduction (although one can argue this is an evolutionary design to control their population, as they would require larger amounts of food to help sustain their faster metabolisms, they could easily over-hunt an area dry if they grew TOO numerous). Because of this we can't look at their definition of "family" the same way we'd look at ours as humans. Their family structure would consist of females of many different mothers, but similar fathers, simply due to the lack of males. This means that a single Keeper family could consist of 20+ females and only 1-2 males. In order for the clan to keep surviving, a male would have to mate with many different females to maximize offspring since only a fraction of the number of offspring would yield more males. So a "family" might not necessarily be a single mother + father + children combination. It is more likely to be mothers + father + children. This is similar to Seeker structure, the key difference between them is that with Keepers it would be more like Polygamy (1 man with many wives) while Seekers wouldn't have the same emotional attachment between males and females (again, talking about the hierarchy like we see with the U, not the independent Miqo'te that didn't adopt this way of life like the ones found in Limsa) .

So what it all comes down to is a combination of many factors that leads to the practical "non-existence" of male Keeper NPCs.
1. Males are extremely rare.
2. Males have little say in social structure (the wives wear the pants in the family, so to speak :P).
3. Keepers are less numerous than Seekers (Seekers have settled throughout all of Eorzea, Keepers have yet to leave the Twelveswood).
4. Until SE says otherwise, it would seem inter-race relationships can't have children, so the only way for Miqo'te to continue to exist lies with the precious few males (more of a reason why the females would keep them hidden safe at home).

Yes the ones settling in Gridania are mainly individual females, just like how the ones settling in Limsa are individual females of Seeker tribes. Just look how long it took SE to finally reveal what a male Mithra looked like in FFXI. They are just THAT rare, and because Keepers are pretty much copy-paste of Mithras, it may be a VERY, very long time before an adventurer runs across one of the fraction of a fraction of a fraction of males that exist that would just be wandering around the world. What breaks the lore-immersion (and I'm guilty of it too) is that SE made male Miqo'te a playable race with 2.0...when in reality you'd never see that many males running around since only like 1% of the entire Miqo'te population is male xD. Of course, the PC itself can be the exception of the rule (like the Coeurl King), but the sheer number of them existing at once would NEVER happen.

Ok I drifted off topic enough, although I'm sure the whole "lore of Keepers" would be an interesting topic in itself as they are the most mysterious of all the races and clans. xD

Velox has summed it up nicely, but another thing adding onto that which just occurred to me, is the fact that the Keepers prefer darkness and nightime due to their veneration of Menphina, the goddess of the moon - they're nocturnal by nature. Hence, it's obvious they would prefer to live in a naturally darker environment, although caves would not do, as it's in their nature to hunt wild game. Hence, the Black Shroud appears to be the ideal location for them.

Although it's not really too apparent in ARR due to the destruction wrought by Dalamud's fall and Bahamut's resultant rampage, in 1.0 the Black Shroud really was appropriately named - the forest canopy was so thick, you couldn't even really see the sky at all. The forest floor was naturally dark in most places, even in the middle of the day, and especially so at night. So it's little wonder the Keepers of the Moon would want to settle there, which possibly didn't go down too well with the elementals and Gridanians who by circumstance have to abide by the elementals' will.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Velox has summed it up nicely, but another thing adding onto that which just occurred to me, is the fact that the Keepers prefer darkness and nightime due to their veneration of Menphina, the goddess of the moon - they're nocturnal by nature. Hence, it's obvious they would prefer to live in a naturally darker environment, although caves would not do, as it's in their nature to hunt wild game. Hence, the Black Shroud appears to be the ideal location for them.

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You brought up a good point which I have missed that could be added to my list of why they are so rare. Keepers natural nocturnal cycle is in contrast to Seekers and the other races' diurnal cycles. This would mean most Keepers are sleeping the day away while the other races are most active, thus further decreasing activity between them.

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Originally Posted by Velox

What breaks the lore-immersion (and I'm guilty of it too) is that SE made male Miqo'te a playable race with 2.0...when in reality you'd never see that many males running around since only like 1% of the entire Miqo'te population is male xD. Of course, the PC itself can be the exception of the rule (like the Coeurl King), but the sheer number of them existing at once would NEVER happen.

Ok I drifted off topic enough, although I'm sure the whole "lore of Keepers" would be an interesting topic in itself as they are the most mysterious of all the races and clans. xD

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Actually, I rather like that we're suddenly seeing Miqo'te males of both sub-species after the Calamity, it makes a sort of grim sense. Miqo'te casualties were probably disproportionately female, given that they make up the bulk of the fighting troops and almost all the males were in safer leadership or stay-home-and-raise-kittens roles, so now there's a relatively large number of male Miqo'te who may be the only survivors of their clans and have taken to adventuring because there's nothing else left for them.

One thing to remember, lore-wise, there's really only YOU. There aren't these throngs of other adventurers out there; its you and 7 others who follow you (and the others technically would be more or less people in their classes to compliment you in a party; faceless, nameless lackeys probably following you from certain points in your adventures)

You are factually wrong, PArcher.
There ARE throngs of other adventurers out there, which is why the city-states have official adventurer's guilds, and even a system to allow them the power of police and other allowances in order perform tasks that need doing (levequests).

Hell at the start you can even see all those adventurers all over in the front of the first three dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Skies

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Other adventurers, yes...but not tons of them. Definitely not another WHM. Not another DRG. No other Jobs at all. They would be people in their Classes (ACN, GLA, THM, etc), most of them being Midlander, Wildwood, and Lalafell (not sure which is more common, probably about equal really); some female Seekers, Duskwight, Sea Wolf and Hellsguard would be around, but not many Highlanders, Keepers (either gender), or male Seekers.

There's enough to keep things going, but overall, there really aren't a ton, not nearly as many as is suggested in-game (it is an MMO). After all, (lore-wise) you have almost no competition whatsoever for even the mundane...if there really were tons of adventurers, you'd be doing a lot less work, especially early on.

That still isn't correct PArcher - the game clearly states and shows that there are plenty of other adventurers around -as Skies mentioned if there wasn't why would they have the Adventurer's Guild set up in the first place? The first page of the version 1.0 manual all but screamed this, and this information has been retained in ARR on the main website:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 manual

As the city-states continued to develop regular standing armies, a growing number of mercenaries and hedge knights found themselves without employment. Concerned at the rise in number of armed men and women resorting to acts of villainy to survive, several respected leaders gathered together to form a network of guilds. The guilds provided these lost souls with the chance to utilise their talents for the benefit of themselves and others.

Through the insight and resolve of these leaders a new industry had emerged-and the era of adventuring had begun.

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The original opening movie for version 1.0 even clearly showed the Drowning Wench in Limsa full of adventurers within the first few seconds, in ARR the first three dungeons you clearly see other npc 'parties' attempting them as well (and failing as it turned out), and after the last one, you see a 'new' npc adventurer doing the same tutorial as the player did at the start with Momodi. And even by the end of the main story, Minfilia mentions adventurers were joining up to assist the Alliance with Operation Archon, including numerous Free Companies (the game actually states this). The player's party during Operation Archon is directly stated as being 'an elite adventurer unit', and, providing you don't skip the cutscenes, the game actually shows your party members there with the player during the cutscenes in the Praetorium. And the cruncher is, even in 1.0, during the End of an Era scene, look closely - virtually all of the Alliance 'soldiers' on the battlefield at Carteneau, were adventurers! Time and again both versions of FFXIV have shown and stated you are not the only adventurer in Eorzea.

Sure as far as Jobs are concerned, the player is pretty much the only one from a narrative point of view to possess them, but even then, there is at least one instance where multiple Job crystals are shown, if not several (the level 50 SMN quest for instance

shows Tristan holding a handful of SMN Soul Crystals,

and the first PLD Job quest the player was given a PLD Soul Crystal by Solkzagyl only to then have to exchange it for another with Jenlyns (and his comments suggest that all members of the Sultansworn possess them).

So even then, that arguement is rather illfounded as well - the point is, the player is not the only adventurer in Eorzea - there are thousands, if not millions like you - the last years of the Sixth Astral Era after all were known as 'the Age of Adventurers' for a reason you know.

I think we may have a different definition of "tons". I don't feel the lore (or the world in general) supports thousands and thousands of adventurers...there just would not be enough work for everyone, and all these monsters and the like just wouldn't exist anymore (assuming a relatively balanced "level" distribution); there's no way the Beat Tribes would be able to breed that fast if there were hundreds of seasoned adventures hunting them down daily, for example. Yes, there are always those "low-level" people running around, and I feel they're who the Guild was made for; try to get them work they can handle just so they can survive another day.

But for those past a certain point in their career (say, level 20 seems fair, though probably even less)? There just cannot be. It makes no sense from multiple perspectives. I'd guess most past this point are part of the Grand Companies, working for them primarily rather than going at it on their own.




Yes, there are multiple Job Crystals (very first PLD quest you're given one from the Roe and another you keep), but, you are the only one, lore-wise, out adventuring. Take Dragoons; there's probably hundreds of DRG soul crystals in Ishgard...but there is only 1 outside. If anything, PLD is the one where there could be multiples out adventuring and being successful; SMN is a possibility too, but they'd all be self-taught, and more likely thralls to the Ascians rather than adventurers.

And for your party in Operation Archon...lore-wise, they were probably picked from an extremely small pool of talent (hence, being "elite"), it may be that there isn't really anyone else past them that can do this job (say, there's 10-20 total adventurers that could go with you, and these 7 were the best of them)


If there really were so many seasoned adventurers...many of the problems with wild animals and the Beast Tribes just wouldn't exist due to overhunting, and competition between them would be incredibly fierce...yet there is none presented in the story. In fact, outside of a few points early on and with one group of retired adventurers...others just aren't mentioned much in the story at all.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Snip snip snip
4. Until SE says otherwise, it would seem inter-race relationships can't have children, so the only way for Miqo'te to continue to exist lies with the precious few males (more of a reason why the females would keep them hidden safe at home).

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This actually has been done. I don't have the post offhand, but there are in fact cross breeds and they are very common according to a post we got..... Fairly long ago.

We won't be seeing them in game though because that would be a nightmare from a development standpoint.

EDIT: I found..... One of the old posts. But I swear there was another one that actually mentioned that it would be difficult to implement them in-game and also that they were common.

Since it came up about why aren't the elementals doing anything about all the chaos in the Twelveswood, this probably explains a fair bit: http://youtu.be/hnZo5o0PfD0 (Is a CS between Kan-E and Raya-O). Before the Calamity even hit, the Garleans had found a way to butcher a large number of the elementals. (Considering their extreme distrust of beast tribes and anyone possessing the echo, makes sense with strange beings that they can't control.) At least we presume it's the Garleans with some of their magitek monstrosities already invading the fringes of the forest, it's one of those undefined things, alas. And then further that with the Calamity that destroyed so much of the wood and reshaped it... and there's far fewer elementals to rage at tresspasses. It's a case of "give someone an inch and they'll take a mile". People know the elementals are in decline, so let's just see how much we can get away with.


This might also answer the question of why isn't Kan-E helping with the ritual in the 2.0 whm storyline. She knows that she's taking her life into her own hands by returning to the city to see to the safety of the people and she knows the risk of greenwrath is too great, and yet she goes anyway. It's quite possible that her own share of greenwrath for putting the needs of the people above that of the elementals would make her unsuitable a candidate to help.

What I gathered from not only the Gridanian stories but the CNJ story / WHM story as well was that the Elementals are extreemely powerful but loosing that power. They don't for lack of a better term, often agree or unify and are exceptionally difficult to not only understand but to communicate with in general. What they desire and how they express it are so alien to the people of Eorzea that they sort of have to..feel their way through it, listening to the chaos of the voices and discern what they can and make their best judgements from there.

I don't think that if someone were to litter in the shroud a herd of giant angry plant beasts would suddenly show up to exact revenge, but they could. The spirits are insanely unpredictable. Again, this is from what I've gathered. It's more of a dance of trying to stay ahead of the elementals and keeping in their good graces, thus the constant fear and perhaps zealotry considering the whole forest could flip its lid for no apparent reason

My apologies in advance, I've been at work for a week and have only had my phone to read these conversations and have been unable to respond to many of the things here. However, I very much wanted to respond to Merwyn Ederi (FJerome). That all being the case, this is my response, and its… pretty big.

I have always found it amusing that Gridania is targetted by many player/commentators as being the most insular and xenophobic of states. Specialized adventurer divisions exist for each of the city stats in their military/social divisions, but Limsa Lominsa calls their out as the 'Foreign Levy,' along with the Privateers (pirates, fishing boats etc) and Ul'dah refers to theirs as the 'Foreign Brigades,' along with the very looked-down upon, Ala Mhigans. Only the Gridanian divisions place the Yellow Serpents (formed strictly of adventurers) along with all the other military divisions of the Twin Adders. Couple that with the fact that they are honored with the very animal symbolic of the city-state and you have a very welcoming imagery for outsiders.

There are a number of average citizens in Gridania that can be overheard feeling animus toward outsiders, there are soldiers in the Adders that could just as soon do without another adventurer. Then, one could also say that there are racists and xenophobic individuals in nearly every group in our own world and their shortcomings do not serve to identify the larger group.

The Elementals

Then, there are the Elementals. I think they are more realistic and primeval than you give them credit for. They represent the will of nature as it were. It is a system designed to protect itself so naturally it will be picky about who it chooses to interact with. If nature was given a measure of sentience and was allowed to manifest in power it would to my thinking be very like what has been imagined in the Elementals.

Humans are in their essence very similar. We in our existence have had a measure of social evolution that has made us defensive toward outsiders while defensive of those that belong to us, call it tribal nature, pack order or whatever you wish. This is the nadir of social order and was necessary for our survival throughout most of our existence.

This existence is humorously examined in The Croods recently, the father figure, seeing much of his species dying off became very cautious and insulated his family from danger and outsiders. It was seen as necessary measures for survival.

According to Papylamo, based on Sharlayan teaching, all of nature has a measure of Elemental sentience. This is concentrated most heavily in, as some others have pointed out, one of the most naturally dense places on Eorzea, the Twelveswood. What would any life do, but follow its most basic instinct to protect itself? Elementals are instinct incarnate.

Spoken in the Twelveswood

I would examine the system of Gridania and the surrounding settlements related to it, as being a modified symbiotic relationship. The forest saw benefit in interacting with the Moogles. What that was, I have no idea, and doubt we'll ever be able to examine it from a story point of view. However, they formed a very basic tribal relationship.

The Moogles saw the attempts of the Elezen, the Ixal, the Hyur and then all of the remaining immigrations to live in the forest, and saw the forest rebuff them. It was a very good response, left unchecked Spoken tend to be rather destructive. The Moogles went and served as a mediator to allow interaction of the early Elezen and subsequent Hyur settlers, and demonstrated to the Wood how they too could be part of the tribe. This is the lore, a system of truth, falsity, myth, legend, speculation etc. This is what it told us about this early symbiosis. Using verbiage like 'propaganda' to describe this system of lore is a bit disingenuous, it’s the system of knowledge that we have to work with.

We have also been told that, of the Five Races, Elezen settled the forests of Eorzea first. Relative to time 5000 to 1400 years ago Miqo'te began their migration into Eorzea proper. Human migration and settlement began in earnest some 500 years prior to our present time. I'm confident at this point that SE has done some redaction and revamping to the storyline. In my opinion, the Twin Adders concept of Elezen/Hyur communal building isn't what the initial 1.0 lore was hinting to, however history is being rewritten and relative to our characters, that in the new reality. Gridiania is 500 years old or so by this estimation, and was largely the product of Elezen and Hyur. This does not diminish the roles of the Miqo'te and Lalafell (and the comparatively small number of Roegadyn) that have moved in and helped to populate the region since. It is however, the reality of the situation. Keepers, as far as we know at present, are a late-breaking member of the party in Gridania.

Elemental Religion

Early on in this thread someone pointed out that the Elemental/Gridanian symbosis isn't religious in nature. I agree in large measure. It is not the formal religion proper of Eorzea encapsulating the rites, and concepts of the polytheistic religion of the Twelve. Nor is it entirely in keeping with the religious nature of the adherence to Hydaelyn.

However, I like that they captured the essence of the symbiosis in much the same way that we would speak were this real, with a religious tone. There are prescribed rituals of dance, and offering. There are festivals to please them, methods to appease them, rites to evoke them, rules to avoid their wrath. I stood in Old Mih Khetto's Amphitheater, before the Calamity, wearing a mask fitted with a jewel and the prescribed rituals and I danced there to receive remission of my Greenwrath, not that anyone remembers. There is definitely a religious quality to the experience of interacting with the Elementals.

The people of Gridania are syncretistic-polytheists, however. There is room in their philosophy for Hydaelyn to be the Mother of the World, for the Matron to be their patron, guide and support, and for the preservation and the honoring of the Will of the Elementals.

Interestingly, Hydaelyn is allowing us to reside in Her world, The Twelve are letting the Five reside in their Land, and the Elementals allow the Gridanians to reside in their Wood. These syncretistic, symbiotic, and covenantal relationships are a repeated theme: I'll let you live here, but I expect this. Its very old school theology, the basic covenant.

Looking at it in a New Light

I will say, after logging a lot of quests in Gridania, both before and after the Calamity, that only the most ignorant of Gridanians sees the Elementals in terms of true godhood style divinity. I think they have a deep, almost religious respect, and they clearly revere and fear their power. However, I do not think they believe they are gods in the classical Western sense that many of us would understand the Twelve to be.

Its difficult for some Westerners to split these theological hairs, but in Eastern religious concepts spirits are everywhere, and they are seen in this religious light: Worthy of respect, reverence, honor, ritual. They are not omnipotent world shaping luminaries of our pantheons. Nothing like the Egyptian Ennead or Ogdoad, nor warrior divines forging reality from nothingness like the Aesir, nor divine children shaping reality from chaos like the Olympians, and are certainly not like Semitic or Arabic representations of supreme divinity. Gridanian Elementals are spirits in a very Eastern way, and the customs that form around them will be very similar.

The Padjal are not the priests of the West, they have far more in keeping with a priest of the East. The Elementals are not gods or divines, but spirits seeking to protect their own. Look at these things that way and you'll likely understand Gridania a good deal better.

If you understand Japanese culture and history and how it works, see your Keeper in light of being a second or third generation European, after having made first contact with Japan. It took quite a while for the insular thinking to give way to syncretism but it happened. Japan has since learned to radically love and include a great many Western concepts. In much the same way Fufucha is a vital part of the life and society of Gridania, as is a certain young Miqo'te lass in the archer's guild.

An Example in Closing

Pawah Mujuuk, however, is not included in Gridanian society. They are a poacher and a thief. Lets look at it another way. The Dutch move into a region of Japan in the early parts of the Edo era and start attacking the priests of a Shinto temple who are trying to keep them from poaching their livestock, and destroying their fields. The locals would likely hire and send ronin and members of the military would be sent as well. Gridania hires adventurers and sends the Wailers and the Quivers.

For me, looking at Gridania not from the gabbing and gossip of a few smallfolk, but from getting to know the people in charge changed my mind on a great many things. Also, viewing it from an Eastern standpoint gave me a huge, "Ah ha!" moment, and made me love the land even more.

I like your analysis. This is however, one thing I would like to point out that I think supports your arguments.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

Elemental Religion

The people of Gridania are syncretistic-polytheists, however. There is room in their philosophy for Hydaelyn to be the Mother of the World, for the Matron to be their patron, guide and support, and for the preservation and the honoring of the Will of the Elementals.

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Gridanian Lore says that Nophica, the Matron, created the Twelveswood as a home for the elementals. Thus is it their home first and the spoken's home second. For comparison, a term we often use in Australia is "native title", indicating a recognition of the land's original owners, whose thoughts and wishes must be considered then using the lands on which we reside.

By honouring the Elementals, the Gridanians believe they are by consequence honouring Nophica herself. As such, their reverence is highly connected with the worship of the Twelve rather than deviant from, but in a very honour the spirit kind of eastern way.

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

Maybe the Elementals ARE part of the Amdapori Civilization.

Amdapori died because they tried to play god, who knows, the Elementals maybe nothing more then advance AI still operating, which were made by the Amdapori to guard their secrets, secrets that lead to their destruction.

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Amdapor existed during the 5th astral era, got destroyed in the 6th umbral era.
If i remember it right from the 1.0 WHM quest (I still need to do them in ARR), there was a war between white mages and black mages at the end of the 5th astral era. The elementals got very angry about the mess and stoped it with a big flood, that was known as the 6th umbral era. Thanalan was once a forest before it.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Thanalan was once a forest before it.

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I've been side-eyeing that bit of canon for a while because Thanalan looks like an exceedingly healthy desert to me. It's probably just bad science on SE's part but "there's more than one type of functioning ecosystem, damn it!" is a pet peeve of mine.

In 1.0 it wasn't healthy, it was a rocky, barren, desolate wasteland. In fact, there was a 1.0 quest which involved helping out a group of ecological activists who were trying to re-forest Thanalan, but found that monsters (specifically, dodos, whom they ask the player to kill for them), were constantly undoing their efforts at planting seedlings. They also confirm what Felis said about Thanalan originally being a forest.

So yeah, just because post-Calamity might show part of it looking healthier (Southern Thanalan especially remains barren), doesn't mean it was like that five years before.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

So yeah, just because post-Calamity might show part of it looking healthier (Southern Thanalan especially remains barren), doesn't mean it was like that five years before.

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Yes

As example:
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/images/scre.../ffxiv-651.jpg

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

So yeah, just because post-Calamity might show part of it looking healthier (Southern Thanalan especially remains barren), doesn't mean it was like that five years before.

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Of course, certain parts of Thanalan also experience so much rain these days that I'd be hesitant to call it a desert at all.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Of course, certain parts of Thanalan also experience so much rain these days that I'd be hesitant to call it a desert at all.

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Tell me about it... I find it ironic how they call East Thanalan's camp "Drybone", when it's always raining.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Yes

As example:
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/images/scre.../ffxiv-651.jpg

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That still looks pretty healthy for a desert, though? Compare that to bits of Mojave National Park.

This isn't really on SE, it's pretty standard fantasy convention that desert and swamp = corrupted and bad since you can make them pretty hostile to the lead character. However the native plant and wildlife feel about it is never really considered.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Of course, certain parts of Thanalan also experience so much rain these days that I'd be hesitant to call it a desert at all.

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It'd be cool if they'd open up some of the unfinished areas of the map and have flash floods there, maybe a bit like the CT rising waters mechanic.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

That still looks pretty healthy for a desert, though? Compare that to bits of Mojave National Park.

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All three of those desert pics still look pretty healthy to me. I mean sure, they aren't lush green forest, but there are still plants and things growing among the sand and rocks!

It might be better compared to the African savannah or Australian outback than to a stereotypical desert.
It is certainly still a drier environment by comparison.

I don't see what's the confusion with Thanalan, it's overall climate seems perfectly in line with a Group B region (Arid to semi-arid) on the Koppen scale. The more healthy areas are simply steppes as opposed to actual deserts. If anything, it would make scientifically less sense if ALL of Thanalan were desert.

WHM storyline spoiler:

Early on in the storyline, Raya-O-Senna preaches to you to never give in to anger, as White Magic is supposed to be used against such negative emotions. Yet not only does her brother have no qualms against voicing his contempt at the idea of a common adventurer participating in the cleansing ritual, but during the quest where you discover A-Towa-Cant's grave has been robbed, Raya actually becomes the very type of person she describes as the antithesis of WHMs - she gets extremely angry, and even threatens physical violence against her Moogle minions if they don't help her find the culprit.

If Gridania's treatment of others matched its preaching of peace and harmony, it would be my favorite city-state. Unfortunately for the Padjal and the Elezen, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

That still looks pretty healthy for a desert, though?

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I grew up in Southern Arizona, which is part of the Great Sonoran Desert. Parts of it are pretty lush, in comparison to what you've posted there from the Mojave. I don't find the Thanalan scenery to be at all out of scale with the deserts with which I am familiar. Now, the rain in Camp Moistbone... that is out of scale, unless the climate is changing there. But if the climate is changing, perhaps all the quest and leve texts describing how people there would kill for a drink of water needs to be revised?

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

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I grew up in Southern Arizona, which is part of the Great Sonoran Desert. Parts of it are pretty lush, in comparison to what you've posted there from the Mojave. I don't find the Thanalan scenery to be at all out of scale with the deserts with which I am familiar. Now, the rain in Camp Moistbone... that is out of scale, unless the climate is changing there. But if the climate is changing, perhaps all the quest and leve texts describing how people there would kill for a drink of water needs to be revised?

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I lived in Phoenix for 4 years. Thanalan is pretty close, needs more cacti though. There was lots of rain in Drybone cause SE wanted to show off the rain effects, so each zone got like 200% chance of rain. Should be back to normal by now.

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Originally Posted by AspectOfWinter

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The funny thing is compared to 1.0 she has calmed down a lot.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

I lived in Phoenix for 4 years. Thanalan is pretty close, needs more cacti though. There was lots of rain in Drybone cause SE wanted to show off the rain effects, so each zone got like 200% chance of rain. Should be back to normal by now.

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Nope. It's still pretty much always raining in Drybone :\

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

In 1.0 it wasn't healthy, it was a rocky, barren, desolate wasteland. In fact, there was a 1.0 quest which involved helping out a group of ecological activists who were trying to re-forest Thanalan, but found that monsters (specifically, dodos, whom they ask the player to kill for them), were constantly undoing their efforts at planting seedlings. They also confirm what Felis said about Thanalan originally being a forest.

So yeah, just because post-Calamity might show part of it looking healthier (Southern Thanalan especially remains barren), doesn't mean it was like that five years before.

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I found the text to this 1.0 sidequest

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U'bokhn: Parched, much? How's about a cold beverage to slake that adventurer's thirrrst?

U'bokhn: What is it then? You think I enjoy doing this? Doling out drinks to passersby? It ain't the most glamorous work, I grant you that. But it's got to be done--for the sake of the Desert Shade.

U'bokhn: Never heard of the Desert Shade, have you? See, there? You've only proved my point. Well, I'll enlighten you. It is a group of concerned souls fighting for the ecology of Ul'dah. We do what we can to stop these arid lands becoming even drier.

U'bokhn: I hail from Gridania, myself. Couldn't believe me own peepers first time I laid eyes on Ul'dah. Never knew there to be landscapes without the merest trace o' green.

U'bokhn: Willing to wager you didn't know this whole area used to be forests, either, did you? Aye, well it was. It pains me heart to think of all them trees and shrubs and whatnot, slowly drying up and dying. And look at this hellish-hot, barren wasteland left in the wake of it all.

U'bokhn: That's why I gathered together all those who felt as I did and founded the Desert Shade. Even got sanctioned by the Botanists' Guild so as we could register guildleves and get you willing and able-bodied adventurers to help our cause.

U'bokhn: Trouble is, on them rare occasions when we are able to get seeds to sprout in these fallow barrens, those damned stuffed dodos come along and gobble 'em up! It's enough to make you think Mother Nature don't know what's in her own best interests!

U'bokhn: The most recent success we've had is over by the Nanawa Mines. I'm asking every adventurer to kill me eight stuffed dodos. You look capable enough. What do you say?

((Refuse))

U'bokhn: Hmph. Your heart's as dead as the bloody desert. Bugger off, then.

((Accept the quest))

U'bokhn: I see there's a bit o' green in your heart! I'll mark the lands we fertilized on your map.

U'bokhn: Hurry along now, and kill the vile buggers before they polish off all our sprouts!

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