I see where you guys are coming from with this. However, the situation that is created currently, is one where the players are receiving these items as rewards for other things such as treasure maps and random chest drops. When you couple that with the supply that the alch's of eorzea are crafting, and now you have an extremely saturated market. This effectively renders these items worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
Also, look at other crafts, particularly the items that are crafted between the late 40's and early 50's, where a lot of these potions are crafted. Almost all of them have some sort of end game demand. Foods (buttons in a blanket, deviled eggs), jewelry, or armor for spiritbonding. Some of the jewelry made in this level range is best available for some classes (example: red coral earrings).
Sorry Devs, again, I see where your intentions were. But medicines in alchemy just aren't panning out, even to the level of demand shared by comparable synths from other crafts.
People need to speak up more for Alchemist buff.
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02-05-2014, 05:15 AMNyneAlexander
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02-05-2014, 05:16 AMUmeroMake Alchemist class be able to equip a soul crystal to change into a Job belong to discipline of War/Magic that uses medicines/potions/etc to combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
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02-05-2014, 05:26 AMEstelliosYou would be incorrect. Elixirs in 1.0 restored around 1/3-1/2 HP/MP depending on who used it. Still, you are right about the potency issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
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02-05-2014, 05:32 AMBillzeyPlease explain why you would not want players to be expected to use these items. Just stating that sentiment alone is inadequate. People are expected to use food these days, why not medicine? Why should the concept be different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
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02-05-2014, 05:32 AMRhindasThat's fine, but what this lead has created is a situation where the items become increasingly useless as you level up. Orophin said it already, the 2 star potions are not worth the cooldown, let alone the effort to make them. I mean, we're not asking to use them back to back, but it'd be nice if they were somewhat useful and could save a wipe since you've created content where one mistake costs the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
And items aren't free from scrutiny when soloing either. Let's say you remove Paralysis/Poison with Spine Drops/Antidote, only for the mob to immediately reapply it and you can't do a thing about it now. The answer to this cannot be "bring a healer" because why have the items if they're patently useless? Not even useful "in an emergency" if the debuff will just be slapped right back on you. Some will be resisted over time, but some do not. The story even goes out of its way to encourage you to use these items in a story quest fight, but that's practically the only situation where it's a viable tactic. You also have items that have no use and/or are bugged -- for example why don't HQ Antidotes don't remove Poison+1 (and GMs say that's intentional? I already submitted a bug report)? The regular ones do, but the HQ ones with the shorter cooldown (helpful since, as I've described, the mob simply reapplies the debuffs) do not.
I just hope all of this isn't because the devs are worried about PvP imbalance because the precedent for that was set over 5+ years ago with WoW, and should've been learned already. That game had to nerf/restrict way too much in PvE because of PvP and I sure hope this game doesn't go down that path. -
02-05-2014, 05:46 AMGesser
How about just do this... health/mana pots on their own timer, any other 'buff' pots on a completely separate timer...
That way every other pot in the game won't be utterly useless.
Chemist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umero
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02-05-2014, 06:01 AMTyloRimeSo basically you're saying "We know Alchemy isn't very functional, but we like it that way."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
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02-05-2014, 06:02 AMIymalaPretty much...Quote:
Originally Posted by TyloRime
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02-05-2014, 06:20 AMWhiteDragonThe problem being that potions are never used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
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02-05-2014, 06:36 AMNyneAlexanderwhat this guy saidQuote:
Originally Posted by TyloRime
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02-05-2014, 06:37 AMCamAlch
Has the item team actually played this game? Because if they think the state of medicines and consumables (other then food, which is fine now) are good the way they are they need a head check.
Potency needs a buff. The cool down timers are fine, in fact they should probably be a little longer.
They had a good balance in 1.0. Not sure why they ruined that. -
02-05-2014, 06:38 AMTupsiIt went against standard MMO design, that's why.Quote:
Originally Posted by CamAlch
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02-05-2014, 06:48 AMZaels
There's really only a few things I use alchemy for.
- Making X-ethers (so i can cast another flare on BLM or get some extra MP for healing-intense fights or keep a bard song playing longer)
- Mega Potions of Intelligence (when both Firestarter and Thundercloud procs are active and i have very high MP)
- Mega Potions of Vitality (to help survive hits that normally would kill me, like if suprana didn't die during phase 4) -
02-05-2014, 06:58 AMneoreturn
I support this msg
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02-05-2014, 07:16 AMzdub303
As other people have said on here, the cooldown timers actually aren't that bad but the potency is a total joke.
Mega pots of 'stat' are quite nice in certain burst situations like Asclepius in turn 5 but potions, ethers, and every sort of elixir is a total joke in this game. Please SE, reconsider the potency of restorative consumables to actually make them useful.
'Mega' Ethers/Potions should heal someone in full i70 for 75% of their hp or mp with a cooldown of 5m NQ and 4m30s HQ.
'X' Ethers/Potions should heal someone in full i90 for the same.
Elixirs should be around 65% for both hp and mp but with an 8m/7m30s duration (possibly more efficient, but also with added cost)
This would make me excited about making them and using them. X-Ethers are like 520 mana, that's an absolute joke in this game, potions as a tank are just embarrassing. -
02-05-2014, 07:25 AModie
^^ i agree with Orophin. As it is, a VIT potion gives me such a short minimal boost (trying to use it similarly to Thrill of Battle) that its neither worth the money to buy them, or the effort to gather the materials and make them myself. The cool down on one of my potions was 4 1/2 minutes. Just a wasted inventory slot at this point.
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02-05-2014, 07:30 AMAkujin
Yeah, the medications in XIV 2.0 are a huge disappointment really. It was the prime reason I leveled Alchemist right out of the gate this time around. In order to supply myself and my FC with any potions that may be useful in the field. For awhile we actually did bother with the mega str pots, but now that's just plain useless and they just rot in the company chest.
I don't think the potency's are bad persay, but the reuse timer is certainly a killer point. Plus some items from XI, as an example, were exceptional to have in every situation, both for party and solo play. Such as Reraise chokers, Invis/Sneak pots.
To amend my statement. The potency of stat pots aren't terrible, at least in my opinion. But the restorative items, elixir/hi elixir for example are pathetic. I actually have these on my cross hotbar and happened to need one in a pinch the other day, the return was so bad I died in the next hit lol Way to go DEVs! Way to make a FF style game with FF potions that suck!
Actual stat boosting foods would be nice as well, honestly, but thats a whole different conversation.
But with the way the medicines are designed in XIV, it basically feels as though they had a good idea, started doing it, then stopped halfway and said that's enough. -
02-05-2014, 07:40 AMAlcideSo you just made them absolutely worthless, all of them... awesome idea, keep goingQuote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
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02-05-2014, 07:54 AMSotek
Wonder what the Item Lead thinks the point of potions is then... Seriously, what's the point of even putting them in the game if they're going to be worthless? Do your job and think of a way to make them more useful without destroying balance, leaving them worthless is utterly inane...
I'd say take Gathering and Crafting Foods away and just give them to Alchemy at this point... Let us take potions to improve GP/CP/Control/Perception/etc. instead of food, at least then Alchemy has a solid purpose for potions like Culinarian has with food. Culinarian makes food to improve DoW/DoM, Alchemy makes potions to improve DoL/DoH. Seems fair enough, but the lack of related and useful stats provided by food in this game kind of screws over Culinarian...
It is a real damn shame we're never going to see a Chemist Job that needs potions actively... Archer would still be buying arrows off Carpenters if the developers wanted Jobs to use consumables... -
02-05-2014, 08:44 AMZetsumei_TsunarashiQuote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
So here's my question, if you don't want players to bring medicine to encounters, what is the point of medicine?
(btw: you know you just said that you don't want there to be a demand for consumables, right ? Look at the economy and tell me if that's working so far.) -
02-05-2014, 09:27 AMShakarlynIt's too situational. It's hard to even use sparingly. Please reconsider what's been said here and provide that feedback to the Item Lead. I am sure you can understand the frustration and the opinions on the matter. It's too restrictive to have value. Potency, duration is an issue and devalues the effort that was put into creating the potions system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
As you have said, food is designed differently and that's fine. Potions can be an emergency boost. They're asking for improvements to make it worth while investing into those emergency situations. -
02-05-2014, 09:39 AMXatsh
The devs need to look at the game, annaylize how people are playing it.
Most group use no meds... that should be a dead giveaway something is wrong. Healing potions are worthless, MP potions last 1-2 spells max. Buff potions last for 1 combo cycle. They are a joke, almost everyone playing this game will say the same thing.
it is not just this it is so many aspects of the game that we get the "That is not how we designed it, we have no plans on changing it"... well huge chunks of the community are rejecting the design concept. How big is any ones guess, I would assume over 90% of people at endgame will agree potions are horribly designed.
I suggest SE do another player poll for everyone actively playing and those who recently quit to get a better idea. I do not think the devs realize how bad they hurting themselves with this stuff. -
02-05-2014, 10:07 AMToraFomalhautThen what is, in the opinion of the Item Lead, the point of medicines? If all content can be completed without their use, why even have them in the game? Currently they in no way can be considered "tide turners" or "saving graces" in the heat of battle, nor do they add any significant bonus for any duration of time to make the effort of their crafting worth while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
Used sparingly? Can the Item Lead outline any uses where medicines can be considered to effect the flow of battle in current content so greatly that their should be any reason why their use is limited at all? -
02-05-2014, 10:35 AMMikara
The main thing that really gets under my skin with the stat boosting potions would be the three second lock out of using skills I get after popping one. You pretty much have a 12-13 second effect even though the potion clearly says it is a 15 second effect. Like someone else said, it's pretty much only enough for one combo / rotation, which hardly makes a difference.
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02-05-2014, 10:36 AMRiko_Futatabi
What I'm getting from this "Item Lead" reply is that you don't want an individual to feel pressured to buy or make there own potions/ethers etc. Yes content at the moment is fine w/o using any of these meds, however when s**t hits the fan I'm sometimes glad I make my own HQ mega-ethers even if occasionally they are used in vain because if the lack of potency.
As WHM it's handy to have a small mp recovery outside of shroud of saints usage. I've found I mainly pop one when I have either died and shroud is down or I've been raising too often and getting low. You could say that if you are dying and raising others that this should be preventable in the first place and should not happen, and you'd be right! BUT, when it does happen; Why can't having RECOVERY medicine actually assist in recovering from those bad situations and prevent a group wiping? An increase in potency and recast needs to be made. People are unlikely to pressure others to use items when there focus should be not getting into the situations in the first place.
I hope this is clear and not as confusing or almost contradicting as it might sound, lol. -
02-05-2014, 10:38 AMZephyrAM
Medicine's are just another 'Oh s---' button, nothing more, and as such, they're something that you generally avoid using. They could potentially save your life, but if everything goes well, you'll never use them. Working as intended.
And yes, I have, at level 50, had a Hi-potion keep me from death. Not even a Mega or X-potion. -
02-05-2014, 10:41 AMEdwardVB
I don't know when I stack raging strikes and one of my HQ mega int potions and a bard uses foe requiem the results are sort of absurd. If I could do that more often or for a longer duration it would be broken.
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02-05-2014, 10:43 AMSotek
I still find the absolute worst thing about potions to be the fact that you don't even need Alchemist to get them, or to buy them on the Market Board.
Do High Level Dungeons and you get far more than you'll ever use. Bad enough nobody is ever going to use them regularly, but the game just completely removes Alchemists from the equation by throwing potions at us like this... I'd love to hear the Item Leads opinion on that...
The difference between HQ and NQs really isn't enough to justify using one over the other, given their incredibly niche use. If NQs and HQs had separate cooldowns on the other hand, then they'd gain much more utility. -
02-05-2014, 10:45 AMToraFomalhautOr just bring a BRD along pop battle voice and mana song it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi
Re-raise hairpins, sneak & invis pots, sleep pots + oppo oppo necklace to regen TP, low damage poison pots for bosses that use sleep a lot. Just a few examples of how Alchemy was a far more useful craft in XI. -
02-05-2014, 10:59 AMTardyg
It seems to me that potions, elixirs, etc, were included in the game, because they are staples to the rpg genre.
I cannot recall a game where they have had such little utility.
For example, the earth/wind/fire/water resistance potions woudl be great for Primal battles, but an effect that lasts 15 seconds, with such a long cool down, renders that useless.
If there are not plans to increace the utility of potions, elixirs, etc, they seem more like a waste of inventory space, and programming resources than anything else. -
02-05-2014, 11:24 AMMooshywooshy
Lemme craft some fireworks. I, for a fact, use more of those mid-battle than potions.
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02-05-2014, 11:33 AMastrobearthe2nd
lol why is every DoH/L is useless in this game? why not just removed them?those classes CLEARLY SERVED NO REAL PURPOSE!!!1111QQQQQ
seriously, why make DoH/L useless for anything? -
02-05-2014, 11:40 AMDyvidThat's great and all but what about the meds that increase stats like Hi-Potion of Vitality or Earth Ward Hi-Potion? These are the ones that need to have duration increased from a laughable 15s to something worth while like 15m. Ask the Item Lead about that please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvinire
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02-05-2014, 11:40 AMCrevox
The potions are extremely potent and great. Simply because players don't understand their worth doesn't mean Alchemist needs a buff. Personally, I have 150 int potions in my bag (thus a big whopping x150 on the bar) and about 100 more poison potions remaining. I make use of them in every boss encounter. I actually used to have over 300, need to restock soon.
Definitely not. The potions are extremely good as is. They all serve their given purpose. Simply because you're not making use of it or don't know how good it is doesn't mean it needs to be buffed to OP levels and make it faceroll easy to use.Quote:
That's great and all but what about the meds that increase stats like Hi-Potion of Vitality or Earth Ward Hi-Potion? This are the ones that need to have duration increased from a laughable 15s to something worth while like 15m. Ask the Item Lead about that please.
Sounds like you don't care about contributing to your group as much as you should.Quote:
Lemme craft some fireworks. I, for a fact, use more of those mid-battle than potions.
Are you kidding? HQ Int potions, x potions, whatever it may be, make a huge difference.Quote:
The difference between HQ and NQs really isn't enough to justify using one over the other
When it comes to gear, people care about every single tiny point. When it comes to potions and food, oh, that doesn't matter. Most players won't even use them, and yet they care so much about the stat when it's on their gear.
You want an example? Try snapshotting SMN DoTs with INT potions. Oh no, the buff only lasts 15 seconds, but wait, if you cast your DoTs while the potion is up, it doesn't even matter if the potion wears off. The DoTs will continue to do MUCH higher damage for their full duration... and what happens if you Contagion them? <gasp> And you can increase the bonus through the use of stacking Raging Strikes on top of it?! And what about Bane? My god, potions are amazing.
That's just one class, one use. You should try to figure out the same for your classes instead of just going "WOW THEY SO USELESS" and ignoring them. -
02-05-2014, 12:16 PModie
15 Second Duration is fine....but alot of the healing potions, the VIT potions, ethers, do nothing to make them worthwhile. SE's in-forum response sounds to me like "we intended for them to be useless" and i don't understand why you should bother keeping them in the game.
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02-05-2014, 12:26 PMCrevoxThey're choices. VIT potions are useful for that health boost to survive longer; it's no different than any other tank cooldown. It could make you live long enough for the healer to save you and pick your HP back up. I'm pretty sure it also stacks favorably with Thrill of Battle. Compared to a heal potion, you can pre-pot a VIT potion for an upcoming bad situation that would otherwise inflict fatal damage (example: Ifrit's Inferno. If you know you're going to die from it, VIT potion says nope).Quote:
Originally Posted by odie
Healing potions are the same, or can just be used as passive mitigation. If you make a mistake and take extra damage, you can just get rid of it. It's also just less HP the healer has to heal.
Ethers are MP. MP is power. More MP = use more expensive, greedy heals. More regens. More shields. This one is really a no brainer. It also lets BLM triple cast Flare, and SMN could use them to be more greedy with their DPS rotation. Though of course, SMN would prefer INT potions, and BLM would only use the Ether in a situation where 3 flares would be amazing, WP speedrun being one example.
Those are just a few examples of their uses. All very, very good uses. The difference between victory and defeat. And that's only if ONE person in the group uses it; what if everyone else does?
Does everyone really need to be taught how to use potions? -
02-05-2014, 12:50 PModieQuote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
I'm glad that some people find them useful, but I have used them as buffs much like Thrill of Battle. I'm a WAR so I know. But the benefit I have gotten from them hasn't been noticeable enough to even bother paying for them. Maybe a lower level instance where I wouldn't have ToB, but otherwise, its a waste of space, and money/resources for me to continue making it a regular practice for me. I wouldn't depend on one as a lifesaver. Just used one in Ultima today, Maybe its because I already have so much HP, but I used it and didn't notice much going on there. -
02-05-2014, 12:53 PModie
Honestly I think the point of this thread is getting lost. If only a very minimal part of the game population are seeing a benefit from the potions, and the majority of the players are not, then that means bad business for Alchemists. Either change the potion situation so that the rest of the players find them worth using, or give Alchemists something else to make.
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02-05-2014, 01:04 PMCrevoxThey are worth using. Players just can't see it. Buffing them to OP levels would only make them "essential" as the CM stated. They are good as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by odie
Also, they are actually very easy to make and gather the materials for. People sell them at high prices because they control the market. If you go and get the materials yourself, you can get hundreds of HQ potions easily in less than a day's play time (a few hours?) and those potions will last you for days.
Alas, it seems like people only meet the half way point when they say they care about their performance in groups. People would rather just go hivemind mentality and instead of trying to figure out their use and make smart use of them, just flock to the post that says they're useless and press "Like" so they get buffed to easymode. -
02-05-2014, 01:11 PMSilverRhythm
Looks to me its not exactly related to Alchemy class completely but the potion effectiveness. To be honest I agree most pots are useless except for those giving mega-stats HQ.
If you are talking about gil making for Alchemy, I think Alchemy can make gil pretty lots and quick. Not to mention all Alchemists 50 out there, I am sure you know which gives the best revenue :P