Direct X 10/11 Question - Answer (Translated)

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Envoyé par Xeno

YES, our framerates would easily double and ambient occlusion/Depth of Field/ General drawing above 8 wouldn't have huge fps drops.

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Myth.

Unoptimized DX9 doesn't optimize itself by switching DX10. For DX10 they would have to perform at least the same optimization work as in DX9, then add DX10 features.

Also DX10/11 effects (occlusion, hq shadowing, etc.) aren't that much about boosting performance, but about better graphics, they come at a heavy performance cost too.

PS3 uses opengl for the most part, but there are middleware just for those DX9 -> Opengl situations. The 360 also uses DX9.

DX10 cards are aplenty so I would consider even some DX10 features for sake of PC group which is not exactly plenty at this point.

DX11 is kind of a waste, as it is very "not" popular from a business standpoint. You care barely see a DX11 capable card in most PCs out there...though with FF14's PC requirements..probably a good chunk.

I'm certainly not the first to note that even the top brass at SE fore-sore what making a modern MMO would entail. They are in over their heads as far as their team goes. In sheer numbers, let alone programming capacity. :(

Edit*

To elaborate, they have obviously created an engine which is capable of so much more than in its current state. (reiteration of many threads...)

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Envoyé par Kam

I'm certainly not the first to note that even the top brass at SE fore-sore what making a modern MMO would entail. They are in over their heads as far as their team goes. In sheer numbers, let alone programming capacity. :(

Edit*

To elaborate, they have obviously created an engine which is capable of so much more than in its current state. (reiteration of many threads...)

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IMO their worst mistake was to assume that creating a reusable game engine was trivial. Worse, to delude themselves into thinking they could develop a game based on said work-in-progress engine in parallel. Developing software based on an immature framework will easily at least double the required work.

I must point out at what a much smaller company accomplished with Tera using unreal engine 3. Haters love to bitch and flame that game and that engine but if you only compare graphics performance and content, and you are not a fanboy you will also have to wonder: WTF was SE doing for 6 years?

I knew the would play the PS3 limitation card sooner or later, just didn't think they would play it before the FFXIV PS3 version was out.

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Envoyé par Ilean

Myth.

Unoptimized DX9 doesn't optimize itself by switching DX10. For DX10 they would have to perform at least the same optimization work as in DX9, then add DX10 features.

Also DX10/11 effects (occlusion, hq shadowing, etc.) aren't that much about boosting performance, but about better graphics, they come at a heavy performance cost too.

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I was reading the comments following the dev post and to me it sounded like everyone was flamming about stuff they had little understanding of. Not saying I did either but after reading the comment quoted above it seems I was right.

Honestly, how hard do they have to try, they are putting in a real effort. You all just seem to want to world all at once. Give them some time. There's nothing wrong with the graphics, they're the most beautiful I've seen out of any game out at the moment.

On top of that the engine they are using is completely upgradable, which means at a later date when they decide that the switch is necessary they will do so.

What's needed at the moment is to make the game run better on lower end cards, and talk about auto-attack and things currently in the works.

In the future though yall should try to take it easier on the devs and forum mods, they can only do so much at a time and you'll seem to cut them up over the biggest nonsense. I know no one care what I say, but I feel it's necessary.

I understand that people may be fustrated, but try not to focus your anger, if I was on the dev team I'd probably be discouraged by the hurtful stuff that's said.

Anyway, I think the devs are going in the right direction:
Battle, with core engine design revamps to make the game run smoother, throwing us some content to keep us busy and worrying about the lesser stuff later.

Just give them some time, if you're really that fustrated, maybe you should take a few weeks and just relax, take it easy.

I'm a take my own advice, peace. Life's to short to be stressed.

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Envoyé par Ilean

Myth.

Unoptimized DX9 doesn't optimize itself by switching DX10. For DX10 they would have to perform at least the same optimization work as in DX9, then add DX10 features.

Also DX10/11 effects (occlusion, hq shadowing, etc.) aren't that much about boosting performance, but about better graphics, they come at a heavy performance cost too.

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Well yeah of course, but the DX10/DX11 features in the game currently have huge fps drops because they rely on the processor atm. The DX9 code in the game is optimized... for PS3 :p

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Envoyé par Xeno

Well yeah of course, but the DX10/DX11 features in the game currently have huge fps drops because they rely on the processor atm. The DX9 code in the game is optimized... for PS3 :p

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Aye.

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Just give them some time, if you're really that fustrated, maybe you should take a few weeks and just relax, take it easy.

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Agree. They need to get the game out of life support mode in gameplay/content areas, then heavily optimize the DX9 engine after that.

Any graphical upgrade should wait at least a year after the above is accomplished.

This has a lot more to do with Windows XP than it does with graphics cards. I would wager that the vast majority of XP users playing this game have DX10/11-capable cards but don't have the operating system to use it. I may be wrong but I think Japan has been a lot slower to move on from XP.

I belive karma dictates this game to be "ready" after SE is done with the XIII stuff.

You know, keeping with numeric order? :P

Popularity of DX10/11?

That came out of left field...

That's like saying:

Not gonna make it windows 7 compatible. you know, till its more popular...

/facepalm

What? Hell no dude, the first few responses got it right. Don't EVEN start with ps3 limitations and the only cards that can handle this game are dx10 and 11. Don't you dare ruin another MMO for a console version.

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Envoyé par DoctorMog

Popularity of DX10/11?

That came out of left field...

That's like saying:

Not gonna make it windows 7 compatible. you know, till its more popular...

/facepalm

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W7 wont be popular anymore lol when window 8 come out but still i agree they should allow DX10 but i think the reason the old dev team said was so Window XP can play ffxiv.

Se honestly this is what porting processes are made for. You optimize the game to run on ps3 it's as simple as that.

The characters have so many poly's nobody would even notice if you reduce the polycount by 10 000 polys and lower the texture resolution on all surfaces.

Little big planet looks great but does it mean it can't be ported to psp? No. Why do you need me to tell you this anyway? You ported FFIII on the iphone!

Lets be honest. Japan and the Japanese gaming market has fallen behind the western world for a few reasons. One is age. The older you get the less relevant you become to the industry...usually. SE needs new young blood but that wont happen because of the japanese buisness culture. Look at Sony for an example of their hacks they still don't understand why they deserved it.

SE is just one of many Japanese companies that will fall behind western competition.

We all miss Squaresoft but that company is dead.

They keep giving us peeks behind the curtain, sad thing is everything behind the curtain is so F'ed up we probly dont really want them to tell us how bad it REALLY is. So embarassing for such a huge company to be this screwed. It would be embarassing if this were their first MMO, but being that FFXI has been out since like 2003 this is so far past embarassing its not even funny.

LAME console market...

Japanese people always develop their consoles even though it never better than PC

how could PS3 cost me 280 USD since it doesn't better than my PC?

curse you!! all of Japanese game companies except CAPC....

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Envoyé par Hiemdall

Lets be honest. Japan and the Japanese gaming market has fallen behind the western world for a few reasons. One is age. The older you get the less relevant you become to the industry...usually. SE needs new young blood but that wont happen because of the japanese buisness culture. Look at Sony for an example of their hacks they still don't understand why they deserved it.

SE is just one of many Japanese companies that will fall behind western competition.

We all miss Squaresoft but that company is dead.

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Your a fool Sony did not "deserve" anything. i did not get to play for a month and im mad.. your a fool and nuthin less if you think hackers "deserve" to STEAL my info

Our information being taken was a by product. No ones information was uses from said attack. Blame Sony for keeping users information in plain text. SE you better be properly hashing all user information and with a strong SALT!!!

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Envoyé par Kam

I belive karma dictates this game to be "ready" after SE is done with the XIII stuff.

You know, keeping with numeric order? :P

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offline rpg's are solely developed by another department, dev resources never get exchanged between different departments, except for maybe music/sound composition, which may actually have its own department as well.

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Envoyé par Hiemdall

SE needs new young blood but that wont happen because of the japanese buisness culture.

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The original FFXIV dev team was made up of new young blood, game designers fresh out of school, that proposed and implemented the battle and crafting systems you know today.

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Envoyé par Hiemdall

SE is just one of many Japanese companies that will fall behind western competition.

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SE has resorted to buying out Western competitors, for instance Eidos Studios, the makers of Tomb Raider and Hitman.

While I have to admit that what they have managed to do with the game visually speaking with direct x 9 is impressive, it is the same kind of "impressive" I would attribute to someone building a to-scale skyscraper using single-block lego bricks.

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Envoyé par Bayohne

This was posted in response to asking about support for DirectX 10 and DirectX 11, specifically. When taking into consideration the performance of the PlayStation 3 version, we currently have no plans of supporting DirectX 10/11. However, in the event that large changes or alterations take place to the graphics, or if DirectX 10/DirectX 11 continue to grow in popularity, we will begin to support them.

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For your information, Square Enix, there are MMOs that already support DirectX 11 and they have a much lower "visual quality" standard than FFXIV does. Get your sh*t straight - there are absolutely no excuses for skipping out on DirectX 11 when the majority of PC video cards support it, with nearly every major Western game developer making the switch to full DirectX 11 support on their recent and upcoming titles.

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Envoyé par Evangela

LAME console market...

Japanese people always develop their consoles even though it never better than PC

how could PS3 cost me 280 USD since it doesn't better than my PC?

curse you!! all of Japanese game companies except CAPC....

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Japan had dominated and still has the largest share of the Console market. Developing the console market is in the best interest of Japan's gaming industry. PC hardware has been primarily dominated by Silicon Valley giants and Taiwan, Japan's gaming giants have a lot less to gain in the PC industry. Seriously how many units get sold for PC versions of offline FF's worldwide compared to their console counterpart?

PC versions of any game also open the door to hacking/pirating the game. Yeah consoles get hacked as well, but not nearly on the scale and ease as PC platform. (which we see a lot of right now in FFXIV)

It's actually common practice now, that console manufacturers lose money for every unit sold, it started with the original xbox, but its made up by misc hardware sales, royalties from licensing disc format to game developers and game sales.

Basing performance of a console on it's price is folly, but nonetheless PC hardware advances every quarter or so of the year. consoles are about every 4+ years.

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Envoyé par KaedrianLiang

Japan had dominated and still has the largest share of the Console market.

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In Japan.

Internationally, they are in the crapper.

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Envoyé par SilvertearRen

In Japan.

Internationally, they are in the crapper.

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Nintendo

/10char

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Envoyé par Adol

Nintendo

/10char

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Whose "console games" are heavily populated with shovelware. I do not consider their shovelware titles to be part of a valid calculation.

Eliminate their shovelware from the mathematics, and their Wii and DS titles become about slightly less in volume to the Xbox and the PS3/PSP titles on the market.

You guys are crazy, the PC version of this game is dead. The only reason it's still running at all is cause they are banking on the PS3 version being a success in Japan, as such why would they bother upgrading DX?

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Envoyé par rainfish

You guys are crazy, the PC version of this game is dead. The only reason it's still running at all is cause they are banking on the PS3 version being a success in Japan, as such why would they bother upgrading DX?

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Because the next Playstation Generation will probably support DirectX 11. And if FFXIV ever gets both feet out of the grave, it will last long enough to see a re-release in the next console generation. So supporting DX11 now would be a good money-saving move in the long term.

DX10 and 11 will help a lot in performance and can use some of the nice things both have

Water in DX10/11 is amazing.....as particle effects , and shadows, seriusly is like night and day both in performance and quality.

No1 that plays FFXI use Wxp , and no1 that plays FFXIV uses a Dx9 card , (no supported)

the question here is why FFXIV is based around DX9 ....

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Envoyé par KaedrianLiang

PC versions of any game also open the door to hacking/pirating the game. Yeah consoles get hacked as well, but not nearly on the scale and ease as PC platform. (which we see a lot of right now in FFXIV)

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remind me again how much personal information was taken when the sony pc system was taken down? oh wait that was the console version wasn't it? sorry go ahead and tell us how easy it is to get into the pc network while sony had to shut down completely for a while because they were completely compromised. i can't recall a pc gaming network being compromised nearly on the scale in which sony was. if i am mistaken and you can name one please feel free to let me in on that little secret.

sony just better be glad that the hacker group hasn't used those poor gamers information due to their negligence.

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Envoyé par Warlyx

DX10 and 11 will help a lot in performance and can use some of the nice things both have

Water in DX10/11 is amazing.....as particle effects , and shadows, seriusly is like night and day both in performance and quality.

No1 that plays FFXI use Wxp , and no1 that plays FFXIV uses a Dx9 card , (no supported)

the question here is why FFXIV is based around DX9 ....

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Because Windows XP/DX9 is still the most popular combo, the better question is why is it not DX9/DX10 and DX11 at the same time like any game worth their dollas.

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Because the next Playstation Generation will probably support DirectX 11. And if FFXIV ever gets both feet out of the grave, it will last long enough to see a re-release in the next console generation. So supporting DX11 now would be a good money-saving move in the long term.

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You are asking the money guys to allow the programmers to waste time on something that might happen after they win the herculean war or making the game a success on PS3? (pc version of this game is a non argument, its dead). Gl with that. I'm amazed someone talked them into carrying on with the game to try bank on PS3 being a success as it is let alone worrying about that far ahead in the future, PC version will get the platform specific upgrades its playerbase size deserves (none).

Any other MMO that has/will do this kind of stuff is either PC only or has a major pc presence, FFXIV PC is so small if it tried to ever run as just a PC game it would be dead before they finished the sentence to suggest it. FFXIV will never have to worry about saying PS3 limitations because it will live or die on the PS3, PS3 is your hand of god so better get used to it and not worry about it limiting what would be a corpse of a game.

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Envoyé par SilvertearRen

For your information, Square Enix, there are MMOs that already support DirectX 11 and they have a much lower "visual quality" standard than FFXIV does. Get your sh*t straight - there are absolutely no excuses for skipping out on DirectX 11 when the majority of PC video cards support it, with nearly every major Western game developer making the switch to full DirectX 11 support on their recent and upcoming titles.


I'll clarify: USING DIRECTX 11 WILL ACTUALLY IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE OF YOUR STUPID CLIENT ON MACHINES THAT SUPPORT IT. SO F*CKING IMPLEMENT IT.

And if that doesn't make it clear enough...

[SIZE="7"]DirectX 11 is more powerful than DirectX 9. Savvy?[/SIZE]

So, use it.

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Calm down sparky, You're going to Hemorrhage. The Game Looks awsome, DX9/10/11 WhoTF Cares. Should they have done it? Yes, does the game still look awsome? yes

Are they kidding us ? ; ;

I dont get it... We KNEW this game only support dx9 at the beginning, long before release, even before Alpha did start.
But the Graphics of this game are the best ones in this Genre currently and still all some ppl can do is bitching.

Why dont u all give them a break and let them work on the more important things first...

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Envoyé par Tempestmoon

Calm down sparky, You're going to Hemorrhage. The Game Looks awsome, DX9/10/11 WhoTF Cares. Should they have done it? Yes, does the game still look awsome? yes

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My Video Card running FFXIV on DX9: COUGH WHEEZE. CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG. COUGH WHEEZE.

My Video Card Running FFXIV on DX11? I'm FEELIN' FINE AND I'M KICKING ASS.

Theoretically. (Reason? On FFXIV, my video card's power draw gets to the point where my FREAKING ROOM'S LIGHTS START BUZZING. Is that even supposed to be normal!?)

The solution is OBVIOUS. Because DX11 has much more streamlined rendering code than DX9. Try playing a DX11 game and then comparing it to its DX9 version (Aliens vs Predator, Battlefield Bad Company 2, etc), and examining its performance metrics.

I am telling everybody here: DX9 is a dinosaur. It cannot handle so much detail that XIV is trying to push on us, while DX11 is perfectly optimized for this kind of detail with the right kind of work.

I'm a bit disappointed, but I understand. I really hope this isnt the start of "PS3 limitations" excuses. Considering how much the success of this game depends on the console release and considering that the the PS3's successor will likely be announced by next year, they might be better off making it a "current gen.5" game like the 360 version of FFXI, to capitalize on the beginning of a new console cycle and allow for further expandability. I hope that after the disaster of the PC launch, SE will have learned not to try and rush the game out to beat a stupid deadline--we all know the speculation about FFXIV coming out to beat Cataclysm to market, but look how that worked out. Meanwhile Rift came out a few months after and is doing swimmingly--it's quality, not timing, that matters more in the long run.

Part of why FFXI hasn't been able to keep the player retention some other older MMOs have is because the "PS2 limitations" have had a major impact on the ability of the devs to update both the game mechanics and the game engine. I'm not privy to the inner workings of SE or Sony's new console, but I'd say it would be prudent to work on upconverting FFXIV for PS4, maybe as a launch title, and re-code the engine to work with DX11 as part of that. While they're at it they can switch the physics engine to one that can work via GPUs to keep the load off the CPU, and fix the fairly unimpressive water in the game. Considering how high the specs are for this game, they won't be losing many, if any players, especially if they retain DX9 support, and will be able to use the graphic upgrade and smoother running engine as a selling point for the relaunch.

Considering they're doing major work on the engine right now, wouldn't the best time to make these changes be now rather than having to come back to it later?

So having the most LATEST card that does not utilize it's power is pretty useless.... . <_<

Just because graphic cards have dx 10/11 support doesn't mean it is popular. That's just retarded.

Very few single player games actually use DX11, and this game is an MMO- a game of a genre that is always going to be behind cutting edge technology. They might have some pressure for supporting DX10, if only it had more of an impact on the graphics as it does now. DX11 has tesselation but not many are using it- thus it's not popular.

Once DX11 finally becomes mainstream for PC games SE might start supporting it, but not before. The game looks fucking gorgeous as-is, and so do single player games like the witcher 2 that run on DX9 still.

Not to mention the current engine should be optimised for DX9 before making it 10 or 11 compatible. Which is what they're doing.

I'm sorry if logic got in the way of your mindless bitching. Go on.