Best in Slot for SMN after 2.1?

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Originally Posted by EikoCeuracanth

You can ^_^

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I'm bad at maths ! I'm not sure who posted that and I can't use the search function for I don't know which reason :/

This might be a bit off-topic, but which food is better for Summoners? Deviled Eggs or Buttons in Blanket?

So is it confirmed that pet cap is the same ? Would very much like to know

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Originally Posted by Craiger

So is it confirmed that pet cap is the same ? Would very much like to know

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It is due to a bug with FFXIV APP showing garuda with 100% hit rate at 432 ACC but only FOR the SMN. If someone else checks the hit rate % of the SMN's Garuda, they'll see that she missed.
And, if you looked at the result with logrep or ACT, it showed that the cap was not the same.

tl:dr : the cap is not the same.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

So is it confirmed that pet cap is the same ? Would very much like to know

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As far as I can tell, the pet cap (~450) is still the same. The only thing that had changed, was that FFXIV-APP started mis-reporting 100% pet accuracy, when it wasn't. This caused me and some others to believe that the pet cap had changed, when in reality it seems to have not.

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

Can someone show me the maths that proves that getting Garuda acc-capped was a dps increase instead of just getting the 432 acc for the SMN acc cap ? Tyvm

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...accuracy-or-no

Some math was done spread across multiple threads, but this one seems to have most of the pertinent information.

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

This might be a bit off-topic, but which food is better for Summoners? Deviled Eggs or Buttons in Blanket?

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I use Stuffed Cabbage.

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Originally Posted by paradigmfellow

I use Stuffed Cabbage.

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Erm. I have overflowing ACC atm because I'm using Omnitome (didn't bother to +1 my Relic).

Deviled should be better than buttons whether you need the acc or not iirc.

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Originally Posted by horaiyo

Deviled should be better than buttons whether you need the acc or not iirc.

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New information has come to light that puts Buttons ahead by a good margin. In terms of stat weights, WD > INT > Det > CRT > SS. The value of CRT drops the higher you go with it, but the value of DET is a constant. This isn't to say that you should sacrifice CRT for DET all over the place, because as itemization goes, we had it [mostly] right all along. But in terms of food, Buttons give more DPS than Eggs, unless you need the accuracy, in which case you probably have bigger problems.

Interesting. When do we start hitting dr on crit?

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Originally Posted by horaiyo

Interesting. When do we start hitting dr on crit?

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Always. The higher it is, the less it is worth. Anything above the base level of 340 crit has DR. That isn't to say it isn't worth stacking, because it is, but every point you add makes every point worth less.

But, the more int and the more det you have, the more crt is worth.

Anyways, the closer you get to i90, the better buttons are compared to eggs. But, at significantly lower ilevels, eggs can be worth it. (i70)

Does anyone have a more precise estimate on Garuda's accuracy cap? Digging around in threads, I've seen 100% hit rates confirmed as low as 450 and less than 100% as high as 446. Does anyone have any info on the range in-between?

I regularly saw 97.5% thrown around with the 443 setup that was/is the standard.

448 is the standard. I don't know if it's 100% accuracy but going over that point would come at a big cost in other stats.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

448 is the standard. I don't know if it's 100% accuracy but going over that point would come at a big cost in other stats.

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It is close enough that any further sacrifice of secondary stats for accuracy would be a DPS loss, basically.

Also, according to the work being done here, DET is more important than we've been giving it credit for. I've tested this formula against in-game numbers and found it to be accurate. I've also messed around with stat weight calculations, and came up with some unexpected results.

The weight of WD and CRT scale up with INT and DET.

The weight of CRT scales down as CRT goes up.

Because of how everything is itemized though, this only changes 1 item in our set.. the head item goes from Summoner's Horn (noooooooooo) to Allagan Circlet of Casting.

Edit: Definitely more than 1 item is changing. :P Went back to experiment more with other BiS potential sets, I had overlooked some...

Old BiS:
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Summoner's Horn
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

448 ACC, 709.2975733 Weighted INT

Weights: WD = 5.990694731, INT = 1, DET = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.178082387, SS = 0.084943755
Food Benefits: Eggs = 24 CRT = 4.273977288 Weighted INT
Food Benefits: Buttons = 13.1 DET + 10 CRT (DET = 3.6952640999, CRT = 1.78082387) = 5.4760879699 Weighted INT


New BiS #1:
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

448 ACC, 720.1609947 Weighted INT

Weights: WD = 6.120637211, INT = 1, DET = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.186039777, SS = 0.084943755
Food Benefits: Eggs = 19.45 CRT = 3.61847366265 Weighted INT
Food Benefits: Buttons = 15.25 DET + 7.78 CRT = 5.74912820731 Weighted INT (DET = 4.30173874225, CRT = 1.4473894650)


New BiS #2:
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Hero's Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

448 ACC, 720.1609947 Weighted INT

Weights: WD = 6.120637211, INT = 1, DET = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.186039777, SS = 0.084943755
Food Benefits: Eggs = 19.45 CRT = 3.61847366265 Weighted INT
Food Benefits: Buttons = 15.25 DET + 7.78 CRT = 5.74912820731 Weighted INT (DET = 4.30173874225, CRT = 1.4473894650)


The food benefits are without re-calculating the weights, as it wouldn't change dramatically with the fairly minor benefit of food. It would change, just not enough to make eggs worth using at i91.

So we have 2 new BiS sets that are identical except for the belt and a ring slot. Due to Hero's Ring being the same as Allagan Belt and Allagan Ring being the same as Hero's Belt, those 2 sets are interchangeable.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Also, according to the work being done here, DET is more important than we've been giving it credit for. I've tested this formula against in-game numbers and found it to be accurate. I've also messed around with stat weight calculations, and came up with some unexpected results.

The weight of WD and CRT scale up with INT and DET.

The weight of CRT scales down as CRT goes up.

Because of how everything is itemized though, this only changes 1 item in our set.. the head item goes from Summoner's Horn (noooooooooo) to Allagan Circlet of Casting.

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The dps difference is 1 tops. I'll stick with the horn. Also I seem to remember having this discussion with you a couple months ago and you saying that determination wasn't a good stat on us. Its just funny how you've come to this stance and we all know how much I like to say I told you so.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Because of how everything is itemized though, this only changes 1 item in our set.. the head item goes from Summoner's Horn (noooooooooo) to Allagan Circlet of Casting.

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I'm gonna delete my SMN. My horn :(

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

The dps difference is 1 tops. I'll stick with the horn. Also I seem to remember having this discussion with you a couple months ago and you saying that determination wasn't a good stat on us. Its just funny how you've come to this stance and we all know how much I like to say I told you so.

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Was this necessary? At all? I mean the first sentence is alright, but everything else makes you kind of seem like a jackass.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

The dps difference is 1 tops. I'll stick with the horn. Also I seem to remember having this discussion with you a couple months ago and you saying that determination wasn't a good stat on us. Its just funny how you've come to this stance and we all know how much I like to say I told you so.

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It is actually very minor. In the new BiS sets, Allagan Circlet of Casting is only 0.324383103 weighted INT better than Summoner's Horn. But, better is better. This means I'm missing a lot more pieces from BiS than I had realized, which is a bummer. It also means I have about 11 more INT worth of DPS I will one day be doing over what I had thought was the best possible DPS, which is good. :)

Indeed. Months ago I was wrong. From everything I had read and seen, the proof wasn't there. Now that more work has been done on calculating the damage formulas, proof is closer, and DET is showing to be better. I have no qualms admitting I was wrong and people who said DET was better were right. :)

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

I'm gonna delete my SMN. My horn :(

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You can opt to not be BiS by 1/3 of a point of INT, and still use the horn. You don't have to be perfect! :P

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Was this necessary? At all? I mean the first sentence is alright, but everything else makes you kind of seem like a jackass.

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It's cool, he's right. He, among others, said DET was better, months ago, and I, along with many others, argued otherwise. The people who said CRT was better were wrong, and we have some verifiable proof now. We were all basing it on false information, and the closer we get to the truth, the more we know. I'm simply glad to know what is really the best with formulas that are proving out with in-game data, so I can start gearing towards the "real best".

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

report/sample logs? :D

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What can I provide as far as sample logs are concerned? Is there a way to dump the raw logs that FFXIV-APP used to calculate accuracy percentages, and send that to you? Basically, all anyone needs to do is run Turn 5 as SMN with ~430 accuracy. The parser will report back 100% garuda accuracy, where ACT and Logrep2 both report the misses.

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Was this necessary? At all? I mean the first sentence is alright, but everything else makes you kind of seem like a jackass.

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First of all. I am a jackass. Secondly I have come to respect Torin for his contributions to the community and should hope he knows its a good natured ribbing so relax.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

You can opt to not be BiS by 1/3 of a point of INT, and still use the horn. You don't have to be perfect! :P

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But I wanna be perfect... :p Well... with 2.2 and Vanity Slot.. I'll get my horn back mwahahaha !

Just a quick question : if you have all the BIS except the allagan legs and the weapon... are the summoner legs worth it while waiting for RNG to drop those legs ?

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

report/sample logs? :D

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I don't have it sadly. But if I do i will send it to you <3

I won’t lie, the only reason I know I’ll never go with that bis list is because myth pants + allagan boots = breezy summer capris on a male character.

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

But I wanna be perfect... :p Well... with 2.2 and Vanity Slot.. I'll get my horn back mwahahaha !

Just a quick question : if you have all the BIS except the allagan legs and the weapon... are the summoner legs worth it while waiting for RNG to drop those legs ?

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Well, for the new BiS list.. Myth legs are better now because we gain more from Allagan gloves than we lose by using Myth pants. Basically, replace Horn with Circlet, swap out Myth gloves and Allagan pants for Allagan gloves, Myth pants and either Myth belt or Allagan ring. Make sure to read my updated post on the previous page, I added a lot of stuff. :P

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Originally Posted by horaiyo

I won’t lie, the only reason I know I’ll never go with that bis list is because myth pants + allagan boots = breezy summer capris on a male character.

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LOL, it's true. The BiS set is going to be so ugly. Vanity can't come soon enough.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Well, for the new BiS list..

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Pretty sure it's not BiS.

How did you run tests for this? It's impossible for parsers to see crits on dots, which is the majority of our damage. Crit also holds a lot more weight for our pet than DET does, and the pet is a big chunk of our damage as well.

I agree with 99% of the ideas you have, but gonna have to go ahead and say you're wrong on this one.

Crit is more important for SMN, even if it's just our class in particular. At almost any given moment we could simultaneously have 7+ chances of a crit proc; from DoT tics, pet attack, ruin, fester, our auto-attacks... it's a lot more important for us than what it would be on BLM.

Oh yeah, didn't even factor in the spell-speed proc off the pet crits....

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I agree with 99% of the ideas you have, but gonna have to go ahead and say you're wrong on this one.

Crit is more important for SMN, even if it's just our class in particular. At almost any given moment we could simultaneously have 7+ chances of a crit proc; from DoT tics, pet attack, ruin, fester, our auto-attacks... it's a lot more important for us than what it would be on BLM.

Oh yeah, didn't even factor in the spell-speed proc off the pet crits....

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Not again. Crit has a diminishing return on gear and sure while its nice to have its still just a chance where as Det never loses its value and scales better. Now with all that being said the difference in dps is ~1 so if you prefer crit all the power to you but he has posted links to his discovery.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

Not again. Crit has a diminishing return on gear and sure while its nice to have its still just a chance where as Det never loses its value and scales better. Now with all that being said the difference in dps is ~1 so if you prefer crit all the power to you but he has posted links to his discovery.

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The dps gain from just a handful of crit spell speed procs will already do more than 1 DPS.

I prefer crit for more damage, but if you prefer less damage and not taking advantage of a trait specifically given to your class for crits, then all the more power to you.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

The dps gain from just a handful of crit spell speed procs will already do more than 1 DPS.

I prefer crit for more damage, but if you prefer less damage and not taking advantage of a trait specifically given to your class for crits, then all the more power to you.

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With his new best in slot you lose MAYBE 6% crit. Seems like a lot right but like i said its just a chance. So you lose a 1% chance to proc that trait that you live and die by. (0.06x0.2=0.012). So you wouldn't trade that chance for increased damage on ALL of your abilities ALL the time. I might add that spell speed is our worst stat by far because it doesn't affect 4 of our damaging abilities

Not this shit again. Can we just ignore him this time please?

Also all hail Torin, savior of pantless summoners all over the world.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Not this shit again. Can we just ignore him this time please?

Also all hail Torin, savior of pantless summoners all over the world.

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hahaha but when you see the myth legs on female... we're still pantless T_T

Yeah that's the point. Summoners who don't get allagan pants have to use summoner pants so they are pantless summoners. But now pantless summoner is love. Happy days.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Yeah that's the point. Summoners who don't get allagan pants have to use summoner pants so they are pantless summoners. But now pantless summoner is love. Happy days.

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Oh ok, sorry ! I thought you meant pantless as : "we did not get the allagan pants" ... which is exactly what I was saying... god I'm tired XD

Guess I'm stickin' with old BiS (now named Sloppy Seconds) cause I can't be assed to spend more myth for such a slight dps increase when I wanna gear other jobs too. :<

A bummer that Garuda ACC is still the same as before but I noticed that I had misses at 438 back when Torin initially announced the "change". Thought my parser was broke but guess it wasn't the whole time. :o

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

With his new best in slot you lose MAYBE 6% crit. Seems like a lot right but like i said its just a chance. So you lose a 1% chance to proc that trait that you live and die by. (0.06x0.2=0.012). So you wouldn't trade that chance for increased damage on ALL of your abilities ALL the time. I might add that spell speed is our worst stat by far because it doesn't affect 4 of our damaging abilities

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I don't live and die by that trait alone, it's just one example of crit being better.

Another example:

DET weight on auto attacks: 0
Crit weight on auto attacks: more than 0

And you're wrong, spell speed affects everything. Even if your dots are ticking it affects the recast on ruin/ruin II, as well as Garuda's own attacks (he benefits from his own spell speed proc). Even one extra ruin every few minutes (and that probably means one extra wind blade) would be more DPS.

Spell speed as a stat does suck, because it takes so much of it to barely get a tenth of a percent. As a 20% proc, though, it's actually a significant difference. And that trait can proc multiple times in a row; there is no internal cooldown on it.

You might as well tell bards not to add crit because "it's just a chance." Of course it's just a chance, but when things proc from it then that chance becomes real damage.

If we had no procs from crit at all, and DET affected our auto attacks, then I might be able to give it a chance. But imaginary weights that aren't class specific do not mean anything for summoner, or take into account the pet & burst situations, where crit festers / crit roused + spurred pet attacks deal huge chunks of damage.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Not this shit again. Can we just ignore him this time please?

Also all hail Torin, savior of pantless summoners all over the world.

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Why do you write comments like this? Almost as pointless as your ifrit parse.

Because we've had this discussion already. We know, you like crit. 1% crit is better than 100% more damage on all of your spells. Crit gives you big numbers. Big numbers are exciting. Only big numbers matter. You'd run 341 accuracy and 650 crit if you could.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Pretty sure it's not BiS.

How did you run tests for this? It's impossible for parsers to see crits on dots, which is the majority of our damage. Crit also holds a lot more weight for our pet than DET does, and the pet is a big chunk of our damage as well.

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I sat there for hours, casting different potency spells (Ruin, Ruin II, Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Blizzard II) and wrote down each number that came up on the screen. I then took the average for each skill, and compared it against this formula: (WD*.2865894 + STR*.1001948 + (DTR-202)*.0220896 + WD*STR*.0036058 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0011015 -1) * (potency/100)

I verified that the averages for all skills matched the formula's calculated damage within an acceptable range of RNG variation. (since not every cast is the same damage)

One thing that I will admit isn't factored into this.. is that more crit on the SMN = more crit on the pet = more SS buffs from the pet = more pet and SMN damage. But, the effective DPS increase you get on yourself and the pet from these SS buffs is small enough that I don't _think_ this BiS set would be any different than what I calculated it to be. The cap between the current BiS set and this proposed one is so large (11 weighted int) that the minor DPS bump you see from the SS buff won't amount to 11 int worth.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I agree with 99% of the ideas you have, but gonna have to go ahead and say you're wrong on this one.

Crit is more important for SMN, even if it's just our class in particular. At almost any given moment we could simultaneously have 7+ chances of a crit proc; from DoT tics, pet attack, ruin, fester, our auto-attacks... it's a lot more important for us than what it would be on BLM.

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The only unique aspect crit has to SMN, is that it procs SS buffs from the pet. For every other aspect of the class, CRT is simply another damage modifier, just like DET is, just like SS is, just like INT is, just like WD is. And from a strict stat weight perspective, it isn't even our best modifier. And really, it isn't even at it's best unless you have a moderate amount of DET and INT to go along with it. Simply put, outside of stuff that procs on crits (SS buff), CRT is no different from anything else that modifies damage.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

DET weight on auto attacks: 0
Crit weight on auto attacks: more than 0

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Det affects auto-attacks, why would you think it doesn't? I mean, even something as simple as mousing over Determination on the Character screen:

"Affects the amount of damage dealt by both physical and magic attacks, as well as the amount of HP restored by healing spells. Auto-attack potency is also affected."

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

You might as well tell bards not to add crit because "it's just a chance." Of course it's just a chance, but when things proc from it then that chance becomes real damage.

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Mainly because their class is kind of build around crit procs, they get major damage spikes from it, whereas we have a 20% chance on a proc to get 80 SS on a crit. So 20% chance on a 20% chance (with crit oriented BiS) is a 4% chance every ~2.9x seconds to get an ~80 SS buff that drops Garuda's attack speed from ~2.92 to ~2.84 (for me) which amounts to a ~3% decrease in Garuda's recast time or a 3% increase in Garuda's DPS for 8 seconds. Garuda will get 20.54 chances to crit every minute, will proc 4% of the time, or 0.8 times a minute, and increase her DPS by 3% for 8 seconds. This amounts to a 0.4% increase to Garuda DPS every minute. Now, we're not even talking about getting rid of these procs all together, we're talking about dropping from proccing 0.8 times a minute to 0.6 times a minute, which amounts to a 0.1% loss to Garuda DPS. That is not even worth talking about, especially when you consider that the alternative is 11 int worth of damage.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

If we had no procs from crit at all, and DET affected our auto attacks, then I might be able to give it a chance. But imaginary weights that aren't class specific do not mean anything for summoner, or take into account the pet & burst situations, where crit festers / crit roused + spurred pet attacks deal huge chunks of damage.

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That's the thing, we essentially have no procs, given the strength of the one proc we do have. 20% spell speed is a lot, but given that it happens so infrequently (less than 1 time a minute with full crit gear), it is practically non-existent. And DET does affect our auto-attacks.

I get it, big fester crits and big enkindle crits, etc. can seem like a lot of damage. But think about it like this... CRT is simply a damage modifier. Averaged out over time, you take CRT over DET. You deal more big hits, at the cost of consistently higher damage. Averaged out, CRT is just another damage modifier, just like DET. It just turns out that CRT is worth less per point than DET. CRT also is worth less per point the more you have. CRT is worth more per point with more INT and DET. So, having a mix is better, which is why the proposed set is better, because the weighted damage is simply higher.

I know, this is all kind of voodoo math at this point, but sometime in the next day or two I will show you some real world proof of why these formulas are real, and work, and most important can be PROVEN to be legit. This is not snake oil I'm trying to sell. I spent the afternoon mathing out all this crap because I had this nagging suspicion that I was missing something. And I was. Anyone can sit down and write down numbers popping up on the screen for DoTs and come to the same conclusions that I have. These damage formulas work for SMN just like BRD just like WAR just like DRG.

The only thing that varies from class to class, and gear set to gear set, are the weights, and the weights are derived from the stats you get from the sets. If you noticed in my 'New BiS sets' post a couple pages back, I included stat weights used for each set, because each set is different. I had to recalculate the weights for each set, and the total weighted int values for each set, to figure out which was better. Every set will have different weights, because the weight of CRT and WD are based on the total values of INT, DET and CRT.

Thanks Torin! It means I don't have to wait for the ever so elusive turn 4 pants to drop! At this point i'm almost certain they don't exist.

Yeah… those have dropped for us three weeks in a row now… still no JF(@!U$V)(!*$!*!!! casting boots though. Game is just trolling me now.

On a more serious note, I’m curious to see the numbers and how you reached them once you finalize them as well. Good work though, I wouldn’t have the patience to sit there for hours transcribing numbers.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

Not again. Crit has a diminishing return on gear and sure while its nice to have its still just a chance where as Det never loses its value and scales better. Now with all that being said the difference in dps is ~1 so if you prefer crit all the power to you but he has posted links to his discovery.

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I don't know if you're understanding t0rin wrong, but crit doesn't have diminishing returns.

Every point of crit will give the same DPS. Crit damage is static, and the amount of crit you gain per point is static.

However, the relative value of crit goes down the more crit you have. Going from 5% crit to 10% crit is a bigger gain than going from 90% to 95%. You're still gaining the same amount of DPS, but the crit gained is HUGE--You're effectively DOUBLING your current crit rate, whereas going from 90% to 95% is a relatively small change at those levels.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

Also where you been?!

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I'm actually probably quitting.
My raid group fell apart, I don't want to continue paying 2 subs and 2 WTFast subs, and the times I need to raid are very specific.
Since the only drops I need are off of turn 4/5, there's not really room for me to pug it, either.