Question for End Game Raiding SCH (Those guys with ilvl 90 stuffs lol)

I can definitely see VIT being viable if you don't have enough HP for a specific fight, or want to cheese some mechanic. But people are vastly underestimating what a small amount of healing per heal can do over the course of a 5-10 minute encounter. But if your not pushing content and just plan on overgearing it.... then it doesn't really matter... stack dex for more dodges?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

As far as AoE heal goes 50HP means alot and its almost 100 HP more for things like Medica 2, 20HP more Regen ticks, 30HP more Fairy heals, 15HP more Fairy AoE heals, And when Divine Seal is applied serve more purpose. As a Scholar you shouldn't be running out of MP even when you have to raise 3-4 times per fight, WHM only dips cause they have to raise and Shroud is lacklustre in the MP recovery department.

---

Only we're talking about SCH here, not WHM; and I used Physick as the example for SCH, because it is the most potent healing spell they have; everything else on their toolbar are less potent than Physick and will benefit less from that 30 MND.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mhaeric

You forget about the galvanize effect and your fairie, since this thread is about SCH end-game. That ~40 HP is actually ~80 HP (on a crit ~180 hp since the shield is doubled) half of which is never going to be over-healing (two-thirds on a crit) unless you're in the habit of over-writing your galvanize. And on top of that your fairie's heals are also bigger and can be cast in the same GCD as your Adloquium, so when you add up the amount of healing your can do in a single GCD the extra you get from that 30 MND is more than you think. It's not a huge amount, but it isn't insignificant either.

---

I haven't overlooked the Fairie benefits, but I can't really comment on them right now, as I haven't done extensive testing. I plan to pull some real numbers up on this tonight. You could look at Galvanize one of two ways; either you cast it once and hope it Crits or double cast it for a chance to override it. In normal situations you wouldn't do this, because it's a waste of MP, but theoretically if your MP pool were infinite; overriding your Galvanize would be the optimal way to heal.

This is the main reason behind my end of the discussion; if we had more PIE we would heal very differently and more effectively than we do now. Obviously 30 PIE isn't enough to tip the scales, but it's a step in the right direction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marcusow86

You mentioned the above statement as if healing will always top someone to full or over heal. If that is the case, you clearly didn't go too end game with healer enough. Try telling your healers in Twintania that they over heal 50 HP more and they should re-spec VIT or PIE. What i am trying to say is, i would rather spec to 'over heal' 50 HP more than to not spec and later have the party wipe due to falling short in healing.

---

If you check the screenshot back on the first page you can see I'm decked out in Allagan healing gear that I clearly didn't get in one run, so it's safe to assume I've healed at end-game at least a moderate amount. In truth I've been healing in the Binding Coil of Bahamut as a WHM and SCH for more than three months; though I don't see what this has to do with basic math.

You mentioned Twintania, so we'll talk about her then (since people love quoting Twintania mechanics to back-up a healing arguement, as though it's the only content there is); you haven't killed Twintania, have you? I know this, because you wouldn't be questioning the value of MP if you had. Unless you're one of the few that can clear Twintania without losing a single member (that would need raising) or without using Mage Ballad (that would reduce Bard DPS and waste MP better spent on something like Foe's Requium) we can assume that MP plays a vital role here.

I would also like to double stack my Adloquium for DS, but it isn't really viable in 13 minute encounter, for MP reason.

On another note; more PIE means higher ticks from Mage Ballad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ymbryne

Please do not listen to the rubbish about speccing PIE instead of MND. Mind is at least 4 (some say 5) times more valuable than any of the secondary stats, and if you're really having mana issues (which you shouldn't be) then you can eat Mulled Tea for a healthy boost of +14 PIE (HQ). There is no such equivalent for Mind, remember. You are unnecessarily gimping yourself for "only 50 less heals huehue."

Heal smarter, not spammier. ~50 less HPs on your Physick means that you're casting ten Physicks to my nine Physicks to restore the same amount of HP.

---

PIE is a main stat by the way, not secondary. You're about right on the 4-5 times better than any seconary stat though; Crit and DET are around 0.18-0.20 to every 1 MND. PIE however scales much better than MND does.

You're assuming healing smart and spaming heals are mutually exclusive, when you know that Galvanize overrides itself. I'm not in the habit of doing this though, because I could be waiting ages to pop a Crit on Adloquium, but if I had the MP I would do this; and so would you.

Let's not forget that the OP is talking about playing both SMN and SCH here, so regardless of what you say; MND is entirely useless to SMN and INT is entirely useless to SCH; VIT and PIE are not.

Sorry if I missed someone out, it's hard work quoting this many people! As for the OP, I'd go with whatever you think is best, given this information. It's a simple matter of taste and non of these attributes will be sorely missed. If it wasn't for the HP problems, most good healers could heal any end-game content in their bikini; stats mean very little to a healer in comparison to their DPS and tank counterparts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashira

I haven't overlooked the Fairie benefits, but I can't really comment on them right now, as I haven't done extensive testing. I plan to pull some real numbers up on this tonight. You could look at Galvanize one of two ways; either you cast it once and hope it Crits or double cast it for a chance to override it. In normal situations you wouldn't do this, because it's a waste of MP, but theoretically if your MP pool were infinite; overriding your Galvanize would be the optimal way to heal.

This is the main reason behind my end of the discussion; if we had more PIE we would heal very differently and more effectively than we do now. Obviously 30 PIE isn't enough to tip the scales, but it's a step in the right direction.

---

So you admit your entire argument is based around a theoretical infinite or 'high enough that it's the same thing' mp pool that is impossible to actually reach. I.e. 30 points in PIE is not worth putting points into as it stands. A step in the right direction doesn't help when it doesn't actually achieve anything.

He also directed his inquiry to "end game raiding SCH". Trying to play both SMN and SCH efficiently != gimping both classes so you can be a mediocre of both.

25 MND, 3 Vit, 2 piety

yeah going to main sch gonna go 30mnd and just use my smn to fate and que for lower end dungs the -30int wouldnt be a big deal then. Looking foward tio end game raiding as a sch =D thanks for all the feedback

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mhaeric

So you admit your entire argument is based around a theoretical infinite or 'high enough that it's the same thing' mp pool that is impossible to actually reach. I.e. 30 points in PIE is not worth putting points into as it stands. A step in the right direction doesn't help when it doesn't actually achieve anything.

---

If or not you can reach the desired amount of MP to pull off double stacking adloquium is at the moment just a theory, since I haven't tested it enough to call it more effective; and there are far more factors at play to take into consideration; such as Crit ratio and of course MND and/or healing potency. The only part of this that isn't a theory is that more MP would make make your healing more effective; I just haven't come up with a number yet or if that number is even attainable.

Of course, shoot me down for thinking outside of the box and trying something different. I'd say to each their own, but go ahead and tell the OP he is wrong to stack anything but MND with his attribute points, and you'll boot him out of your group for anything otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ymbryne

He also directed his inquiry to "end game raiding SCH". Trying to play both SMN and SCH efficiently != gimping both classes so you can be a mediocre of both.

---

Gimping sounds little harsh. The truth of the matter is, those points mean next to nothing. Do whatever you want with them Aruji. It's not going to stop you doing any content in the game as it stands, not even Twintania.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashira

Of course, shoot me down for thinking outside of the box and trying something different. I'd say to each their own, but go ahead and tell the OP he is wrong to stack anything but MND with his attribute points, and you'll boot him out of your group for anything otherwise.

---

Drama queen much? I don't think anyone in this thread said anything about kicking people who don't have full allocation to MND as scholar. And if they did, no one took them seriously.

The 30 points that you allocate do not do anything to your fairy. You can go 30 strength for all the pet cares.

I healed every encounter in this game and have a lot of end game gear. 30 mind makes no difference at that point. Anyone who thinks 50 more healing on physik does anything with you and your pet doing 1600 a pop, please stop talking. It does not and never will do anything other than give you some more over-healing. You will spam that spell since with that gear you will never run out of mp using physik + pet embrace (macro them together if you haven't), you will overheal a ton and that 50 extra will not matter as while you're spamming that, there is no encounter in the game that requires that hps and your tank will be constantly beyond topped. When things get serious, lustrate is what saves you and it is unaffected by mind. Invest those 30 points into something useful. Managing cooldowns on your pet and aetherflow stacks is what makes you a good scholar. I bet i could heal coil in AF gear + ilvl90 weap just fine (minus twintania, and that's just because fireballs will kill me).

I play SMN as an alt so i went 10 vit and 20 int. I never looked back. Before i was running 30 vit and i can tell you, 5k hp makes some mechanics obsolete when you can just eat it and let your pet heal you up. Between 50 more on my heal and 450 hp, i'll take the later any day as i can't heal anyone dead. I also use selene for 90% of encounters. I think i only use eos for ifrit extreme and parts of turn 5. Simply because i do not need the extra healing.

A lot of people giving advice on this forum are poorly geared, poorly informed and have not done much more than 4 man content. Asking for advice here is a terrible idea; test things out yourself and use your own judgement. How many times have you wiped because you didn't heal for 50 more hp vs: someone screwed up and no heal could save them, or you ate too many aoes and forgot to heal yourself and died. I bet it's always the later 2.

It mostly boils down to bad tanks not using cooldowns when they should (mountain buster, eating a bomb, death sentence). Dps not moving out of aoes and healers blowing cooldowns at the wrong time. As a sch, put those points in vit, they will serve you better than mind, i can guarantee it.

Using DPSing as an argument is also bs, i dps titan extreme until adds and only switch out of cleric stance when other healer is jailed or for stomps. If a tank is getting low i can lustrate from cleric stance just fine or rouse my pet before a mountain buster and virus. If i healed for 50 more on physick, i'd be doing the same. I don't even bother using eos for the extra healing on anything other than ifrit extreme and some parts of turn 5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noctrin

It mostly boils down to bad tanks not using cooldowns when they should (mountain buster, eating a bomb, death sentence). Dps not moving out of aoes and healers blowing cooldowns at the wrong time. As a sch, put those points in vit, they will serve you better than mind, i can guarantee it.

---

Literally you are telling us that it is everyone's fault for dying but not scholar's for healing not enough. The reason why you burn cooldown is for the extra healing, no? So if extra healing is making no difference, i don't think you need to burn any cooldowns to save the day.

Sometimes, to determine whether two heals can top the tank off nicely at 100% for a big hit or will only be able to heal him up till 95%. Yes, it is situational, but happens. If your tank is at 95% after heal and a big hit is coming, you will need to risk him being dead due to RNG (boss crit normal hit).

Yes, VIT is good. That is.....if you cannot dodge AOEs or are getting unnecessary damage which you term that as BAD. So instead of spec into 30MND that can potentially saves the raid from wiping (i mentioned potentially, not 100%) you opt for something that can save your ass when you go BAD.

If you establish your theory that way, can i assume that DPS can also spec in VIT so that they can cover their ass when they go BAD?

Summary:

1. Raid fails, Tank = BAD, DPS = BAD, healers = Bad for not burning CD at the correct time (burn CD to increase healing potency or point blank increase more heal which is what 30 MND does)
2. Spec VIT, so when you get hit by AOE red circle, you survive and everyone who die is BAD because they dont spec VIT.

That looks about right?!!

That would be correct if there just wasn't so much damage that is simply unavoidable. There is a definet (don't have the exact numbers) amount of HP you NEED for high end content and that can not be obtained with out being full decked out in i90(even then healers need a bit more I am pretty sure), slotting extra VIT in melded accessories or putting your points in VIT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ymbryne

Calyanare - If you were using Selene, then I'm assuming you were using her spell speed and skill speed buffs, which would mean that your DPS was killing things faster, of course.

---

Well, duh. I almost always use Selene for everything, for that reason. What I'm saying is that we noticed an increase in the increase and there were only two spec changes made in my group: one of the Bards bought his Zenith, and I specced into PIE to see what would happen. I haven't had a chance to look at this closely yet, but my subjective experience is that PIE scales much better than MND, and seems to affect the fairy in a positive way as well. Your claim that PIE doesn't affect the fairy seems at first glance to be false--but I'm going to be testing this more to see if I can find out what's really going on, once I grind out the seals for a couple more Hymns.

Edit: By the way, I did notice that PIE doesn't just affect MP and MP Regen. It also affects Spell Speed, FWIW. (Inb4 "spell speed is garbage", just putting this out there)

Go 30 MND. If you need extra VIT, meld some VIT materia onto Astral accessories and use those. Food such as Mulled Tea also gives VIT and PIE. You can't get extra MND anywhere else.

PIE is pretty much worthless because Ballad exists and SCH already has high MP regeneration capabilities.

MND is your primary stat. Purposefully gimping your heals, shields, and dps just because Lustrate isn't affected by MND only lowers your potential.

It simply boils down to this. Depending on your play style spec in what you want too.

Suck at dodging AoEs or having a hard time hitting Vit caps - Spec some into Vit
Having trouble with MP - Spec some into PIE
Don't have any of these problems or feel like your heals are just to low- Spec all into Mind

The reason people mostly spec all MND is because you can only get so much MND on your character where Vit and PIE(MP and MP restoration) can be gotten from other sources. It's that simple as long as you have good gear you could heal any content in the game with little trouble.

You are never locked into one spec you basically can respec whenever you want so experiment to find out what works best for you.

I see people here saying PIE is worthless, because we don't have MP issues. The reason you don't have MP issues are because you're using Energy Drain when your Aetherflow doesn't cut it; that stack would have otherwise been better spent on Lustrate or Sacred Soil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashira

I see people here saying PIE is worthless, because we don't have MP issues. The reason you don't have MP issues are because you're using Energy Drain when your Aetherflow doesn't cut it; that stack would have otherwise been better spent on Lustrate or Sacred Soil.

---

No..
For example in coil i generally don't energy drain. (Accuracy)
Still No mana issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marcusow86

words..

---

LOL.. 20% extra healing and 50% extra healing from pet change my main heal from 1600 -> 2600. 30 mind 1600 -> 1650;

I see you have not done much more than turn 1, so why are you even weighing in when you clearly have not done much end game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Staris

No..
For example in coil i generally don't energy drain. (Accuracy)
Still No mana issues.

---

You're talking about Twintania right? You know, that 11-13 minute fight..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noctrin

Fail, fail everywhere~

---

Not sure how you come to conclusion that i am still T1 but hey~ whatever that floats your boat honey~

Btw, Rouse increase healing potency by 40% but only pet gets it. Fey Illumination increase healing potency by 20% to everyone. Not 50% and 20%, please at least get the figures right.

Your statements sounds like this.

1. I only uses Eos in selected part in Twintania fight cause i mainly rely on my lustrate and listrate does not depend on MND but let me just put in EoS buff in my arguments.
2. Extra 50 HP per heal will result in overheal, but let me pull in how my fairy can increase my healing potency so i can overheal more.
3. Let me shame everyone who dies due to not able to dodge AOEs or burn CDs as BAD and then advise someone to spec VIT so that they can be BAD at times and not die.
4. Let me ALSO assume that this thread is not talking about ilvl90 end game SCH and when my HP cap comfortably beyond the threshold needed to win even twintania, i NEED MORE cause i wanna QQ laugh at those that have lesser HP than mine but in the end we still survive the same unavoidable AOE damage.....unless well, i am BAD and lazy and do not wanna avoid AOE and/or that i am an amateur and i don't know where to dodge that bomb.

I am end game healer and i need MORE VIT, F**K the rest, i ain't gonna heal you more!!

Well i'm is almost with full ilvl 90 gears(except for the pants) and my HP is only 3.9k unbuff and i mean wtf? other classes/jobs will have more HP than the healers with fully/almost decked with ilvl 90 stuffs. I don't know it's a design oversight or something.
And why i need to respec my stats and getting an ilvl 70 gears with materia on it since my accessories is all ilvl 90? Doesn't make much sense for all this.(i'm speaking solely for turn 5 fight).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxtross

And why i need to respec my stats and getting an ilvl 70 gears with materia on it since my accessories is all ilvl 90? Doesn't make much sense for all this.(i'm speaking solely for turn 5 fight).

---

If you want an i90 accessory with some VIT, you could do worse than the Vortex Ring of Fending. You'll lose out on a few points of MND, but it's +15 VIT +11 Crit +11 Det...

Though I'm sure someone will reply to this about how the melded i70 is better, I don't care. This is a solid option for people who would rather farm Garuda Ex for awhile than waste a ton of gil on materia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxtross

And why i need to respec my stats and getting an ilvl 70 gears with materia on it since my accessories is all ilvl 90? Doesn't make much sense for all this.(i'm speaking solely for turn 5 fight).

---

You get a HP buff with Tanks in group, also food is pretty good now it stays through death...you can do Turn 5 with 3.9k hp just need to have Succor and Virus / Eye for an Eye / Storms Path (I think). Yes it is inconvenient to have low HP in the fight but it doesn't make it impossible. Once Phase 2 is over you will not be taking any unavoidable damage until Phase 5 where you can have the White Mage drop regen on you while you run for your life from Liquid Hell burning your feet ;)

If you feel your HP is too low you can always drop 5 Points into VIT to get over 4k

ill just say something, critical hit rate, u want a lot of that, belive me, and other thing, maybe its just me but i always overheal the party using my pet skills every minute and 2, eos can heal with whispering down like 350-500 per second if the skills are properly used, always focus target the boss to see the cast bar and act acording the skill the boss is going to use, i only use scholar and crafters, so i know pretty well my job

got about 4,2k ish hp with full party...4,5 with buttons in blanket food, and without crafted accs, just hero's(and a few allagan,still trying to buy full hero's acc though..coz of +crit rate)...
I put 20mind and 10vit if I remember correctly..
eos heals about 600ish without rouse, and physick heals about 980-1000.
its not bad, really. eos could heal the other party member with you focusing on tank :D

Since the topic was revived and all that, I also know I'm late to the party, but say you're learning a fight. Like my static we're currently on Twintania and I notice in turn 4 that the healers are running out of mana our whm is now full i90 and the sch is close behind her, and yes they both need the ballad when I sing it. Would it be good just while learning to spec into PIE? If that would allow me to sing for a shorter amount of time all the better really since me and the melee needs the TP song too and some Foe would be good for the BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elkya95

Since the topic was revived and all that, I also know I'm late to the party, but say you're learning a fight. Like my static we're currently on Twintania and I notice in turn 4 that the healers are running out of mana our whm is now full i90 and the sch is close behind her, and yes they both need the ballad when I sing it. Would it be good just while learning to spec into PIE? If that would allow me to sing for a shorter amount of time all the better really since me and the melee needs the TP song too and some Foe would be good for the BLM.

---

30 piety grants ~240 MP, so lets do some very simplified numbers to see how much extra mana throughout the fight that it gives:

+240 - Over the course of the fight, your healers are not likely to be at full mana often, if at all, so the extra 240mp is really only there at the beginning
+1000 - Lets assume a 10 minute fight. This is how much will be regenerated at 2% every 3 seconds over the course of 600s. Note: I was generous here with rounding up. It's possible it could only be 800mp depending on where individual breakpoints are due to rounding.
+480 - SCH only! Aetherflow once a minute for 20% of extra mp over the course of 10 minutes. I don't count Energy Drain, since a SCH is not likely to have spare stacks to use on that during a fight.

So over the course of 10 minutes you have an extra 1240 or 1720 mp as a healer by the end of the fight, and some portion less than that by the time ballad becomes needed. That's not a whole heck of a lot, and only saves you at most 3 or 4 ticks of ballad. I.e. you are not going to see any real difference as a bard depending on how your healers spends points.

Edit: To give an idea of proportion, this is how much effective mp a non-piety healer has over the course of the fight, assuming an mp pool of 4000.
+4000 - Starting mp
+16000 - natural MP regen
+8000 - SCH only! Aetherflow gains
+3000 - WHM only! Shroud of Saints gains ~200 per tick for 5 ticks once per 3 minutes. It doesn't line up perfectly with 10 minutes, but I'm going to assume they don't use it until the 60 second mark.

Total MP pool for the fight then is about 28,000 for SCH and 23,000 for WHM.

I will say that WHM probably has slightly higher numbers than this since they tend to gear for PIE secondary, so their base MP and thus regen is higher than SCH. In the interest of simplicity, I assumed equal stats for each class.

Determination is what make your Fairy heal higher, not mind (I mean, ofc Mind help on the overall level). The scale is completely different.

Thats the beauty of the class, sort of. Goin full crit wont help, goin full mind is not really necessary, and not havin a lot of det is actuallky gimpin your fairy ... enjoy :P


Other than that. Its pretty nicely mathed out in end game. If you go full mind + full lvl 90 gear on Twintania you will survive granted you use your tools when need be. Just don't forget to adloquium yourself when you're targetted by fireball (not succor, adloquium)

All I see in this thread pretty much is people sayin the same thing but under different aspects, the main factor people tend to forget is the following :

Even if full 90 give less hp, your augmented Adloquium will cover the difference. Is all you need to know. You don't need vit as a scholar, you need ~500 crit rating, deviled eggs and then you need to play without makin mistakes / forgettin when to use your cooldowns on you when there's unavoidable damage, and that apply only for one fight in the entire game.

You can spec for vit to have more room for mistake in case you re forgettin stuff, but on Turn 5 really, with all the group bonuses and given that a full 90 geared scholar does 1.2k crit adloquium on him/ herself without any heal buff or food, fireball and such aren't a problem with 4k hp, even if you play with 3 wax and flesh maximum tact.

Other than that : dont know if piety give spell speed ? if its the case then, white mages should play with full piety so they benefit from selene + their spell speed on allagan gear.

Non tanks only need about 4k buffed hp to survive (eat) mechanics such as divebombs (1, ofc) and titan bombs. This is easily doable with 3 pieces of i90 leftside gear. Obviously you can say more hp helps you live with weakness on, but that seems to be stretching the argument. My opinion is that main scholars should have 30 points in mind, but if you don't main sch, go 30 int as there is no such thing as over-dpsing.

If you need the extra HP for something like Twintania then use melded accessories, they're not expensive anymore. If that's still not enough then you're undergeared for it, simple as that. That or get your dps to step up their game, organise their cooldowns properly, and take down 4 stack conflags.

One thing you should never be doing is putting 30 points into VIT but having i90 accessories, that's just ridiculous:

VIT spec +i90 accessories = +30 VIT +65 MND
MND spec + i70 melded accessories = +45 VIT +80 MND

Ignore the piety stuff, 30 PIE is like 2 MP every 3 seconds refresh and about 50 MP to your Aetherflow. So a free physick every 2 minutes (assuming your MP is actually an issue, which it will hardly ever be). No way is that worth sacrificing around 5% heal potency and 5% attack magic potency for.