Gear Choice SCH Post 2.1

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Because 11 SS is completely useless, 11 piety is not, even if you don't have MP problems.

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see how you can make a subjective argument for the viability of a given stat? it's almost like i can do the same.

i'll take my spell speed and be happy with it, thanks.

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Originally Posted by jumpypuppet

see how you can make a subjective argument for the viability of a given stat? it's almost like i can do the same.

i'll take my spell speed and be happy with it, thanks.

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It's no really subjective. Unless you are making a SS build (lol) these 11 points in SS aren't going to do anything.

Like it or not, 11 piety is a bunch of MP.

How about you both are wrong? Hero's Ring and Astral Ring HQ (melds - Vit IV, quicktongue IV, Savage Aim III's x2, Piety IV) are still BiS for SCH, so the other poster was correct that there's nothing for SCH in these new extreme primals. But as for piety vs. spell speed argument, piety is the clear winner for WHM. For SCH, it really doesn't matter. They're both about the same (lowest tier). Piety was a slight winner pre-patch, but now that spell speed effects your pet as well, it's not completely worthless. Mana shouldn't be a problem for SCH in any situation, period. I don't even have energy drain on my hotbar. I always use my aetherflow stacks and hit it again as soon as it comes off cooldown. The only time I was mana starved when I solo healed Titan HM, but I think it was my mistakes because I have seen even WHMs solo heal it without being mana starved.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

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Just, no. Yes penta Astral is nice if you need the HP but losing 4 MND is just not worth it UNLESS you need the HP from it instead. Also SS does beat PIE solely because SS has an actual value and PIE does not, PIE is only needed for higher aetherflows where as SS does contribute to GCD(you need TONS of it to make notice tho).


Also, piety is not completely useless, the more PIE you have the more MP you gain back from Aetherflow btw. But yes BiS ring becomes Vortex, you gain DET from it and Spell Speed. Yes SS ain't that great right now tho but 11 DET > 8 DET since you don't really need that PIE. Also Vortex can be easier to obtain for some people.

So no new bis beside ct boots? I was so excited with my allagan circlet =( I used it less than a day lol Ill stick with vanya hat and crafted accs for now :/

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

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Just, no. I will take 12 CRIT over 4 MND anyday, thank you very much. According to your logic, all pieces with DET are BiS over CRIT pieces because those DET stats equate to 2-5 points of MND. You're talking WHM here. These minor boosts in heals matters for them because they're about pulling big numbers. SCH is all about shielding and CRIT compliments that more than anything.

Our main job is tank healing and those critical hits can save a tank's life over few points of extra HP heals. If your gear piece doesn't have critical hit on it, then I don't consider it BiS. For that reason, I consider vanya hat of healing still the BiS for head piece. Yeah, disagree all you want. Me and many other expert scholars I know give CRIT a priority.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

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Just NO. 12 Crit is like nothing, yes they gain higher shields off critting but you still need to heal too, your pet still needs to heal aswell which will be effected by DET. No I'm not saying DET is better but the values of the MND & extra stats on the ring will outway the 12 crit you get on it. You need to remember crit is subject to range where as DET is not. Yes you are giving shields to people but you are also healing them too. Dropping main stat for 2ndary stats is just not worth it.

Also lol at saying Vanya head. Some "expert". Your most important stat is MND and then Crit, then Det, then LolSS. The higher your MND is the higher the crit would be, crit only highers the chance to crit, its still your MND that gives you the high heal.

crit is nice for obvious reasons but if you're prioritizing it over mind you're doing it wrong. i converted my penta astral in favor of the allagan and haven't looked back

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Originally Posted by Belzeboss9

So no new bis beside ct boots? I was so excited with my allagan circlet =( I used it less than a day lol Ill stick with vanya hat and crafted accs for now :/

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oh and by the way, you're fine. keep using the circlet.

A SCH should definitely focus on Crit. But Crit at all cost is just silly. Your main stat is still MND. But hey, they think they're "experts" so let the experts guide us!... Relying on range to heal, damn you must be so gewd

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

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Just NO. 4 MND is like nothing, what gives? 8 HP extra heals per hit, lol? With a crit build, you can hit at least one crit per ten heals. That one crit would give 3-4k HP/shield, even higher on warriors. Yeah, you do the math how far it outweighs your little 4MND. You say my pet needs to heal too? Ha, yeah and it needs to crit too. That's double the benefit. For this exact same reason, SMNs go for crit build as well.

Also don't make it sound like I'm dropping MND on every single damn piece. It's only a couple that you can't find ilvl90 for. From testing, I have noticed higher frequency of crit hits on every 50 crit stats gain. So when you go for crit head/ring/boots instead of ilvl90, that's roughly another milestone of 50 crit stats. I would gladly take that over few loss of MND. You sound like one of those scrubs I meet in raids that spam the crap out of their physick/adlo and mana starve while I just throw my crit and sip coffee. GG.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

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Oh look here come the insults because you have nothing else better to say. The point is, you are supposed to be using succor and physick too on SCH not just using Adlo and going afk. You know you ain't just dropping 4 MND tho are you, you are dropping 13 MND total. Fact of the matter is, MND does not go 1:1 with any other stat, you need something like 4+ crit just to make up for 1 single MND. So unless you gain something like 52+ crit then it is not worth it.

Going BiS right now will leave you with 486 MND(Seems off from the website for some reason, probs misses allocated), 523 Crit 259 DET vs your BiS where you gain 41 crit but lose 13 MND & 14 DET (FYI DET has a higher value than Crit anyways, not saying you should focus DET tho since #1 prio after MND is crit.). Yes you crit slightly more and I mean very very slightly but 1) Your shields are going to be smaller than mine and 2) Your overall general healing is going to be tons lower than mine. 13 MND is a hell of a lot, it's just like saying let's just walk around with 1 of our accessory slots empty, because MND gives us no benefit, it's silly and ignorant. If you know how to play SCH it don't matter if you are shielding, curing to help out the WHM, curing other PTs in CT, raising people etc you will never run out of MP. Of course you don't run out of MP if all you do is throw 1 adlo for the crit and then do nothing.

So not only are you completely healing a ton less than me, so is your pet who gives you a ton of healing done also, which btw your pet will be curing tons lower than mine. So basically you sacrifice a ton of curing just to crit every now and again? Which btw is totally subject to RNG also. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE me tons more crit, but to sacrifice your main stat just for a chance to crit that little bit more is far from right.

It depends on your overall build.
Obviously a small amount of crit in a det/mind build wont make a different.
IMO get your main heal stat close to your needed cap(where you can comfortable deal with the situation) then move onto secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

You sound like one of those scrubs I meet in raids that spam the crap out of their physick/adlo and mana starve while I just throw my crit and sip coffee. GG.

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That sums it up for me. You sound like one of those kids who think they do it good cause they do different than the mainstream. You think you're awesome but you resort to using exaggerations in your arguments. So go back to sipping your coffee.

Haha.

Also, crit doesnt mean jack unless you have decent mind to exploit it, woopy you just crit 600 lol pants!

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

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Writing in 2 parts because this 1k character limit on posts is annoying as hell.

First off, it's 13 MND and 7 DET loss. Not sure where you miscalculated, probably vanya head which can take 11 DET meld? Ok now let's do the math. How much do you think 13 MND will give in heals? 30 HP pts approximately (same gain on crits)? Now even if 41 crit helps me score one extra crit every 50 casts, that's 3-4k HP/shield. Now if you take your extra 30 HP per heal x 50, that's 1500 total HP cured.

Lower than mine and that's with my example of worst case scenario of crit chance. I'm sure I would crit far more often than that. With my BiS set, your total crit would reach over 550 and like I said in my previous post, I notice higher frequency every 50 crit gain. Of course all of this wouldn't matter in your normal dungeon runs, but when you are in tough content like T4/5 or extreme primals, you need to score crits as a tank healer to keep him up.

A crit hit during Titan can eat a whole mountain buster or you pray to hit that crit before death sentence on Twintania. SCH is not just a healer, it's a dmg mitigation class and your crit shielding is what separates your performance from WHM, otherwise a normal shield is no better than Cure II of WHM.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

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What's this gibberish? I swear these forums have some joke posters. 600 crit? No class crits that low, maybe only Bards do. I don't think you even have a SCH, but FYI - in raids, SCHs are usually assigned to war heals and my crits on them hit for over 2k. On top of that, that gives 4k shield. The last time I healed a war on T4, I literally kept going idle after constantly keeping 4k shields on him. It was a snooze fest. Then the week after, I switched to WHM and this other SCH was sweating bullets trying to keep him up. We even wiped couple of times because of him. I checked his gear, no crit build. End of story.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

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16 Crit (thus 1%) does not guarantee 1 crit every 10 heals. It says that you can expect 1 crit heal every 100 heals (16 gives 1%) probabilistically, but gambler's fallacy states that 99 non-crit does not mean the next will crit guaranteed. This is not how probability works.

Assuming the max possible crit (around 550 for 20%) with mind at 488 and det at 302 (this is more than you can actually have with full crit) with Allagan book, you will have a 783 Adloquium heal. At crit, that would be 1174 crit heal. This results in 2350 crit shield. You can expect, over 250 heals, with 20% crit, to have approximately 4 crit Adlos. The more mind and det you lose, the lower the Adloquium heal will be. That will cause the crit heal and then the crit shield to be lower.

To illustrate, with this 302 det, you have 783 heal, 1174 crit heal, and 2350 galvanize shield.

At the best crit gearing, you'll have an average of 761 average healed.

If you drop to 483 mind but 566 crit and 236 Det, you'll see your heals fall to 757 adlo heal resulting in the same amount of crit chance (4 every 100 expected) with a 1136 crit heal and 2271 galvanize shield.

See that dropping just 3 mind, you lose 4 healed. That'll ripple down every single heal. For contrast, if you have a full det gearing (488 mind, 444 crit, 317 det) then you can expect your adlo to be 784 healed average, 1176 crit heal 2352 crit adlo shield. Much more than crit, but you'll see these crits roughly 12% of the time--8% less.

Notice, not a single one of these heals is 3-4k on their own. To reach that number, I'd have to heal someone with Fey Illumination and Mantra up at the least AND manage to get a crit. You will not get 3-4k galvanize shields on your own.

Dropping 13 mind, thus 26 HP off every heal, will result in your Physick, Adloquium, and Succor in ALL being lower resulting in your total healed dropping and your HPS dropping. Mind is, and always will be, larger than Crit.

To be fair, survivability is a function of your non-crits.
Let me explain, there is no force crit, or crazy high reliable crit buff, so in almost any fight length your going to have several consecutive non crits (until about 98% crit chance). Therefore the ability for the group to survive 100% of the time is a function of the groups max HP, mitigation, and non critical healing potency.

I know some people like to wipe over and over until crits happen to land when you need them..... but I prefer to reliably clear content as smoothly as possible.
That said besides Mind for scholars nothing else is very meaningful, so crit is probably your best option after mind.

Lol this guy is high if he thinks he can crit 2k each time he does an Adlo to get a 4k shield. Your tank needs convo up to even attempt to hit a 2k crit, you'd also need your pets buff to hit it. Most of your shields are going to be a damn sight lower than that. My Mrs crits like 1.3k on PLDs and 1.5k ish on WARs and she has tons better gear than you describe(she actually went MND 1st so hers will be higher crits than yours) so if you think dropping so much MND and you actually critting for like 40% more than her than you, you are obviously just trolling.

With the gear you describe it would literally be impossible to crit a 4k shield all the time, you'd need MND pot, convo, pet buff and a ton of MND to hit it.

@cainejw well said, maybe he'll actually understand it now instead of his inaccurate claims for a 4k shield (lol).

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

First off, it's 13 MND and 7 DET loss. Not sure where you miscalculated, probably vanya head which can take 11 DET meld? Ok now let's do the math. How much do you think 13 MND will give in heals? 30 HP pts approximately (same gain on crits)? Now even if 41 crit helps me score one extra crit every 50 casts, that's 3-4k HP/shield. Now if you take your extra 30 HP per heal x 50, that's 1500 total HP cured.

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You're quoting healing numbers on a WAR tank running CDs (if not your own faire's) on vs raw heals, that's not a fair comparison. I'm an i87 SCH and I crit for ~1400 on a WAR with only Defiance running.

If you wiped because of the SCH on turn 4, it's because he's bad, not because he didn't gear for crit. SCH shines there.