Please remove gear advantages in PVP

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Gear progression does not belong in PVP, end of story. If you argue against this, you're flat out wrong. Want gear progression? Go PVE.

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So, you're claiming that opinions other than your ones are wrong?
And you say you want to live on another planet.
You and your posts won't be missed. Take your care-bare crap to your other planet and stick with WoW. You're beginning to irritate me.

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Originally Posted by Xioned

I fu_cking farm for my Gear ilvl90 drg 3 months for nothing?because now this gear is usseles and just work for pve and now need to use a horrible gear(visually).
This pvp mode is only for no-lifes hardcore players and ffxiv not is hardcore game.I can say this from my experience in REAL hardcore games.

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So you expected to PvP in PvE gear and do well?
And you also expected that all the PvP gear would be handed to you on a silver platter with no hard work?

If you two want that kind of shit, go back to GW2.

I guess times have changed. I remember wanting to PvP just for the fun of destroying another player in battle, I guess it's different now. Even with FPS games it's starting to involve some form of progression and those are generally entirely PvP based.

With gear in the mix it's going to be very hard to balance PvP correctly due to the added variables. Large scale PvP might be fun though.

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Originally Posted by yuixjfa

So, you're claiming that opinions other than your ones are wrong?
And you say you want to live on another planet.
You and your posts won't be missed. Take your care-bare crap to your other planet and stick with WoW. You're beginning to irritate me.



So you expected to PvP in PvE gear and do well?
And you also expected that all the PvP gear would be handed to you on a silver platter with no hard work?

If you two want that kind of shit, go back to GW2.

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here we got the typical troll that doesn't respect the opinions of others,if you want win pvps just because have better gear?ok good for u.I just said pvp gear shouldnt be better that pve.

I didn't say nothing about GW2 lol

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Originally Posted by Xioned

here we got the typical troll that doesn't respect the opinions of others,if you want win pvps just because have better gear?ok good for u.I just said pvp gear shouldnt be better that pve.

I didn't say nothing about GW2 lol

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PvP gear shouldn't be better than PvE gear in PvP.

I see.

I think SE's design may be too late for this.

One of the things I like about the level sync'd dungeons is that you can't overpower the content by just having superior gear. Teamwork plays a larger role.

And such is true for the level 30 and level 40 PvP brackets. Where the iLevel 30 or 40 geared player has an equal chance to kill an iLevel 90 player. Let the folks that want PvP gear progression to face each other in the 50 brackets where their investment carries that extra weight. And anyone that wants balance to join the 30s and 40s.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Asking for balanced, fair, equalized PVP isn't "self-entitled", it's called wanting skill based PVP.

Keep the insults to yourself.

It's like people WANT this games PVP to die and have no playerbase because new players will be instantly turned off from it after losing to gear 100 times in a row.

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Right cause in real life a slave gladiator could tell the undefeated champion to not wear armor that he earned because he's slightly armored while the new blood has a leather subligar cause its unfair. Grow up and deal with it.

I wonder how things would be if they matched players based off pvp rank. Not exactly 1 to 1...but like a general range.

tbh i hated GW2 pvp , when i work on getting my gear i want this gear to matter and not just for the looks...

There is hardly any gear advantage as it is.... You can be sure anyone of the same rank has similar gear (or had the opportunity to obtain similar gear). e.g. rank 10 or so you might see people who have obtained 2-3 pieces for one job or one for a couple of jobs.

Please, stop pushing your inane suggestion. Yes, I know wow used to have 32874 gazillion players but that doesn't mean everyone should do what WoW does. removing the reward aspect from PvP in an MMO which is already gear progression based will suck the life out of the PvP. If the game was designed *from the beginning* not to use gear as a progression mechanic, then I would support you wholeheartedly. But it's not.
What's the point in spending all your effort and hard earned points to get this cool looking axe if it only makes you LOOK shinier?

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don't allow people without pvp gear play vs player with it, just put another option in duty finder,Arena without morale

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this option already exists. queue for level 30 or level 40 mode. Morale doesnt have effect, you should use normal gear (which will all be level synced).

I've been playing pvp nonstop since it was first released, but I agree with this suggestion wholeheartedly.

As of now, I feel like I need to grind out these marks to gear up, just so I don't get into a situation where I can't outplay the opposing team due to being hopelessly outgeared. Obviously this puts me in a position where I'm wearing half a set of warwolf and shrugging off enemy dps as if they were ants, which I know is no fun for them either.

The level 30/40 arenas aren't a good alternative simply because they don't allow me to use all of my abilities. If players want to strut their i90 pvp gear while nuking an undergeared opposing team in an completely unbalanced game mode, that's fine, but give the rest of us an alternative that doesn't restrict our skillset.

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As for things like PVP specific abilities, they offer some great utility, and lots of opportunities for counterplay, but they never should have had a seperate progression system. It took me a significant number of games to get the tools I needed to survive against some of the more creative strategies. Because of this, I feel balancing will be unnecessarily difficult.

And no, I'm not going to just play some other mmo because I have issues with the current system. I see it as a mode with potential, and would hate to see people treat it as nothing more than just another gear treadmill.

I don't PVP at all, but I think it's very weird that people would expect to be on even footing in an MMO's PVP without having good gear. I do, however, feel that the average iLvl of opponents should be balanced, I have no idea if this is the case or not.

EDIT: I think it would be good to have this as an option. Equal footing for those who lack the time to gear up, and free-for-all for those who want to pit their skills against people with different gear. Gear plays a large part in the tactical side of PVP, too, as your materia setups can differ notably, after all.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Please keep gear out of PVP entirely and make it skill based, not gear based.
Please normalize gear in PVP, give everyone preset gear to choose from with preset melds that they can edit at any time for a fee of gil.

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Go play Guild Wars II sorry. I like working for the best gear to improve my performance and I don't
mind some players getting it first because they worked for it.

At some point, everyone runs around with a full set anyhow so I don't really see the problem. Personally, pvping for gear has always been one of the main reasons I compete. Aesthetic looks matter to me and contribute to my e-peen.

I also believe (assume) that teams are que'd against each other by the total average PvP rank by the sum of all individual team members. The higher your pvp rank, the likelihood of having more pvp gear increases thus resulting in pretty balanced matches.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

this option already exists. queue for level 30 or level 40 mode. Morale doesnt have effect, you should use normal gear (which will all be level synced).

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true, but i cant use all my skills O_O

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I also believe (assume) that teams are que'd against each other by the total average PvP rank by the sum of all individual team members. The higher your pvp rank, the likelihood of having more pvp gear increases thus resulting in pretty balanced matches

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ye u have marks for gear one class but if u want play other class?u will have same rank.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Gear progression does not belong in PVP, end of story. If you argue against this, you're flat out wrong. Want gear progression? Go PVE.

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http://s28.postimg.org/mqu3hclgb/Wgj_CD.gif

Just make 2 mode, with gear and without gear.

Personally, i can understand where the OP is coming from but i cant agree at all. If they take away gear, and give me dinky cosmetic crap to chase, then there is no drive to establish who the better players are, when it comes to skill. The easiest fix would be to actually utilize a system that took into account, iLevel equiped and maybe a win/loss ratio, at best. All in the name of balance of course... and in my opinion, no one should be even able to que to do PVP without at least the base pvp set equipped, thereby making everyone on the same page, as per request. There would be more skill involved that way, and sets the bar to commence the climb through pvp ranks.

Couple things here:
Gear progression is good, in all content, it provides tangible goals to work toward.
Gear level and type mismatching is bad, in PvP it creates horrible gaps in potential to win.
Rank/Level progression is good, for the same reason as gear progression.
Rank/Level mismatching is bad, for the same reasons as gear mismatching.

The simple solutions, so everyone wins have been touched a couple times, but:
Matchmaking should (for non-premade) build teams, and match them against teams, with similar numbers of PvP gear and iLevel as well as Rank. This way "lowbies" don't go into unwinnable situations constantly. Those that can't (or won't) focus 8+ hours a day on PvP still have a "fair" arena in which to test their skills.

In time anyone that puts in any time will eventually get geared, but while they do that losing every single match because your pitted against people in better gear and regardless of skill you simply can't overcome the gap ... that's just obnoxious, and poor design.

I know, I know, join lower level fights, blah blah blah ... No, that is a work around, work arounds smack of poor design decisions. Teired arenas to choose from, multiple match modes, a proper team building/matching system, those are far more "right" options.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Couple things here:
Gear progression is good, in all content, it provides tangible goals to work toward.
Gear level and type mismatching is bad, in PvP it creates horrible gaps in potential to win.
Rank/Level progression is good, for the same reason as gear progression.
Rank/Level mismatching is bad, for the same reasons as gear mismatching.

The simple solutions, so everyone wins have been touched a couple times, but:
Matchmaking should (for non-premade) build teams, and match them against teams, with similar numbers of PvP gear and iLevel as well as Rank.

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I guess I'm okay with this, though what is the difference between a mode where gear matters, and people are matched up such that they have the same item levels, and one where gear is equalized? It seems like an extra step to effectively do the same thing.

edit: holy shit this 1,000 character formatting is annoying. Is this a forum or twitter?

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Originally Posted by docbon

I guess I'm okay with this, though what is the difference between a mode where gear matters, and people are matched up such that they have the same item levels, and one where gear is equalized? It seems like an extra step to effectively do the same thing.

edit: holy shit this 1,000 character formatting is annoying. Is this a forum or twitter?

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firstly: lol at the edit

Second: free for all arenas, unmatched rankings, etc. can all be implemented as optional entry sets to make for those things. As well as 'open' area PvP for capture the flag and such. Those are all ways to allow for the mismatching, and gear differences to still shine, without completely crushing the souls of new players, or creating giant unbridgeable gaps in PvP.

My concern with it as it is, is that the gear and skill progression rift will eventually leave no entry point for PvP, or for those that don't spend day in and day out in it, won't be able to progress effectively at all.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

My concern with it as it is, is that the gear and skill progression rift will eventually leave no entry point for PvP, or for those that don't spend day in and day out in it, won't be able to progress effectively at all.

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The crafting set gives you a start however. You don't need to go into pvp with pve gear no matter what.

[edit] it's also possible that frontlines will help fill that void once it comes out. It's a lot easier to blend in with bad gear when you have 16? (forget the amount) people fighting on a team than 4. So people might be able to farm gear that way.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I cannot believe people are arguing against fair and balanced PVP.

I want to live on another planet.

Gear progression does not belong in PVP, end of story. If you argue against this, you're flat out wrong. Want gear progression? Go PVE.

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Only a Sith deals in absolute.

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Originally Posted by Xioned

true, but i cant use all my skills O_O



ye u have marks for gear one class but if u want play other class?u will have same rank.

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When I play a different class I queue for lv30/40 to resolve that issue. If you do have good PvE gear though, the loss isn't too severe- I feel like my overall performance is around the same both with ilvl55 pvp gear and ilvl90 PvE gear.

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Originally Posted by Allyra

The crafting set gives you a start however. You don't need to go into pvp with pve gear no matter what.

[edit] it's also possible that frontlines will help fill that void once it comes out. It's a lot easier to blend in with bad gear when you have 16? (forget the amount) people fighting on a team than 4. So people might be able to farm gear that way.

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I hadn't thought of the crafted, but I don't know that it would be enough to alleviate the underlying issue anyway, which is basically that the rift will grow if there is no better matching system than what is present.

Yeah, I actually mentioned the more large scale, non-fight to the death speedball type matches somewhere else ^^
Hopefully the rewards for those will be comparable and personally that's the PvP I'm really interested in.
I love a large scale battle. 1v1 in equal gear, or army v army where strategy and communication can overcome gear gaps.

Edit: I've been that guy in your sig sooooo many times lol

I think (like others have mentioned) a favorable solution for the gear balance issue would be to just make a separate pvp mode where all gear is synced to a certain amount of stats for each class (perhaps players choose from a central list of options how to distribute the stats).

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Gear progression does not belong in PVP, end of story. If you argue against this, you're flat out wrong. Want gear progression? Go PVE.

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I will make one final note here that you can not tell someone that they are 'wrong' just because they argue against your position. That is not a valid argument to make. It is one of the core fallacies of logic. I will avoid being too mean here but you are not very smart if you feel like your opinion can be the only right one as you have been showing both in this thread and the other one.

No gear progression = no incentive to participate. It is why PvP in FFXI failed. There was no reward, no reason to play it other than to "have fun" and if you're in an MMO, unless it doesn't have gear progression at all, you expect useful reward from any activity you participate in, including PvP if it exists.

Please, you are welcome to your opinion, and as misguided as you might think other people are for arguing against your position, that in and of itself does not make that person "wrong." So stop this childish stomping your foot and saying they dont like my idea they must be wrong!" attitude.

you balance around max geared level pvp and for all who want no gear progression in pvp go play rock paper scissors thats all skill bro

Good teams can win with or without gear. Good players will become geared in no time. Not sure I see a problem.

Uh... I had fun in WoW with earning PVP gear. It gave me a sense of advancement, to see that I was able to keep healing my team for longer since it took the rogue too long to chew through my HP and the warrior charged him and got him off me, which didn't happen the first time I was in the battlegrounds. I died in horrifically short order because I had no gear, no time investment, no honed reflexes or fine tuned talents.


I went from being practically one-shot and panicking every time something so much as blinked at me, to a badass paladin healer who would charge into the fray, laugh off being stabbed in the spine, stun the rogue so that our rogue could work him over and if I was in the fight, not one ally would fall until I was dead from around 6 billion damage due to my combination of powerful tank, and massive throughput on healing.

I fully support PvP gear. I hate people who want things "normalized". It's just because they're lazy and want what the good players have because they think that's the only thing separating them from being #1 on the world charts. It isn't, the things separating you from being the best are time, effort, instinct, skill, trust, and gear. you don't have all, or I'm guessing, any of those, so you don't deserve to win.

Since you're just making the same damn argument over, it seemed appropriate to put my old post here.

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I went from being practically one-shot and panicking every time something so much as blinked at me

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What a wonderful experience for new players to instantly quit PVP over!

Preset/normalized gear will make PVP more attractive to new players and make PVP done by more players. Forcing someone to get 2 shot and stand zero chance until they have farmed gear for hundreds and hundreds of matches(You get literally 1/5 the marks if you lose compared to winning) is a fantastic way to make someone lose ALL interest in PVP and never want to attempt it again.

I want a thriving PVP community, giant gear gaps and mandatory skills that require hundreds of wins to earn makes the PVP community extremely small and turns off any new players from joining. Eventually more and more players quit PVP to the point where the only people PVPing have full gear, full skills, full melds and the playerbase is so small that queues are 5 hours long. No new player will want to fight against people who can alt tab and beat them, and the community will never grow, it will continue to shrink until no one is left.

Gear based PVP is horrible for future of this games PVP, or any games. Please think ahead and into the future before forming your opinion on something.

It will make all the hardcore players immediately quit. You know why? PvP is about superiority, plain and simple. When you make the field entirely level no one wants to play anymore since they can't have something better than the next guy, and that other class WILL beat them every single time without contest. With gear it becomes an arms race, that guy got a better shield, so I need to grab a better lance to punch through. With normalization, it just becomes "that guy's a summoner, so his team automatically wins this patch because our healer gets locked down by the pet and then no one can survive his debuffs which can't be purged because the healer is getting nommed and anyone who gets close gets munched by their melee"

What's the point of PvP if certain class combinations automatically win? it just becomes who has the best SMN/SMN combo this patch. not who can strategize the best, or who can adapt to the changing demands of combat in the most efficient manner.

You're just lazy. get out there and learn, earn some gear, and then get into the real fights. that's where things are "normalized". You have to earn the unfair playing field you want(since that's what you're campaigning for, gear being removed just leaves the most broken class this patch to be stacked.)

I want a thriving PVP community, giant gear gaps and mandatory skills that require hundreds of wins to earn makes the PVP community extremely small and turns off any new players from joining. Eventually more and more players quit PVP to the point where the only people PVPing have full gear, full skills, full melds and the playerbase is so small that queues are 5 hours long. No new player will want to fight against people who can alt tab and beat them, and the community will never grow, it will continue to shrink until no one is left.

Gear based PVP is horrible for future of this games PVP, or any games. Please think ahead and into the future before forming your opinion on something

normalizing pvp and making it all the same makes people play it once and say well that was something.... and never play it again. people want to see progression a ladder a way to get ranked if there isnt its a case of "if everyones special noone is"

The mindset that "people in favor of normalized pvp are entitled / lazy" is pretty hilarious.

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Originally Posted by seraph1m

normalizing pvp and making it all the same makes people play it once and say well that was something.... and never play it again. people want to see progression a ladder a way to get ranked if there isnt its a case of "if everyones special noone is"

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And once you get all the gear you wished for? What will you do then? Stop playing?

then you wait till there more gear or a ranking system if there is neither of those then you dont play at all or at least i wouldnt

By the way, you need 275~ wins in order to complete just half your warwolf set. And yes, the difference it makes is extremely noticeable. So if you want to retain your sanity, you better start working towards your set now, or get curbstomped for 500 games later.

And if you even want to be eligible for the i90 set, you'll need to win upwards of 1000+ matches.

Yeah, is almost the same ideia i posted on suggestions: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...P-Gears-Pls-NO.

You really don't need to create a set of special gears only for PvP, remember, this game will have the Frontlines a large scale PvP map based on the grand companies and companies. Yes, REMOVE the PvP sets and put some ladders, titles, cosmetics, mounts, minions, hairstyles, dyes, etc... And the problem about Gear progression on PvP you can resolve easily: Have a small difference between the gears. So, you'll RLY have issues about gear in PvP of your gear is rly weak.

This is a MMORPG and not a "Sport" game. PvP NEED to be defined by: 75% by skill player, 20% Gear and 5% Classes/Jobs (Yes, Classes, you have classes that will counter some other classes by nature.).

That sounds a lot like a game most of us quit a year and a half ago. What was that game called again? Guild wars 2. Sorry, but this system is awesome it will keep us all busy for awhile until the 2.2 update. Gear is a must, a purpose to the gear is needed. If you don't like this you can go back to the game it didn't work on and have fun with that. Stop being lazy and start working on your gear or come play final fantasy XIV a forum awakened to try and change pvp to your silly way ^_^.

Please do not go off trying to make this game's PvP what it's not. This isn't any MLG PvP. It's an MMORPG, which means progression. Either accept it as it is or find PvP elsewhere. GW2's reward system was its downfall. Do not expect other game companies to make the same mistake. (Hopefully)

So by everyones logic here, having more gear from beating pvp matches means you are not as skilled as someone in less pvp gear..............eh?