How to release raid content for both casual and hard core players every patch.

I think it deserves mention that this 2.1 patch is actually coming to fruition 4 weeks after the team's initial target date. According to Yoshi, the server issues delayed that and he took responsibility for not realizing the potential of his game. Now... 4 weeks to solve a networking issue? That is a *little* ridiculous. But if you think the game has potential and want to like the game, give the team a chance to get this patch out and see what exactly it offers to you before you pass judgement. There's also been no mention of Extreme Mode primals, Pharos, etc. which is end game content. Then again, Blue Garter or some other tryhard guild that gets their rocks off by getting a galaxy-first in a video game will spend 12 hours straight and complete it on patch day and then come right back here with "Ermahgerdz more hardcore content plz."

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

For some it is. You don't decide how others plays the game.. For some the joy of gaming is to get server/world firsts, while you can enjoy simply crafting and levelling alts, but 95% of community calls that boring

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So 95% of the community has cleared coil and is bored of the game? I just wish people would get over it. If you don't have the patience to wait for new content, unsubscribe and move on. You won't be missed.

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Originally Posted by Black91CRX

I just wish people would get over it. If you don't have the patience to wait for new content, unsubscribe and move on. You won't be missed.

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Because people quitting is exactly what this game needs. Damn, you should be running the game, not Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by permbanned

Because people quitting is exactly what this game needs. Damn, you should be running the game, not Yoshi P.

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It doesn't matter if the hardcore 1% quit because in the time it takes them to reach the end of progression in whatever new game they choose, SE will have released 2.2-3 and they'll just re-sub and do it all over again. Meanwhile, the other 99% of the population is still playing and paying SE's salaries (which is all that matters in the end).

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Originally Posted by Liander

I was being facetious, of course not everyone quit. People still played the oringinal FF14, Age of Conan, and other poor games. The point still stands pretty strongly that people are quiting over this and by latching on to the arguement "Well MY guild is still playing!" means very little to the overall arguement of my post and the feelings of many others. I quit the day the announced CT and their intent on not making the game fun for free companies and people wanting to play more than a monday. This thread was lacking in comprehension of that fact so I spoke up about the reality.

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You quit? Yet you are still on here posting. Why do you care?

Go away and let the people who enjoy the game.... Enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

the hardcore 1% ... the other 99%

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Is Occupy Wall Street protesting the FF14 forums now?

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

tryhard guild

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Please explain to me why "trying hard" is a negative trait. When children play on a school sports team, do you not encourage them to try their best, even though it's just a game? When did effort at play become a bad thing? Would you take it as a compliment if someone called you lazy then?

Tryhard was the wrong word, you are completely right (and I'm not trying to be facetious) - how bout nolifer? I'm talking about the hardcore crowd that pours time into a game like its a job.

And until the players posting these threads realize that they are the very very small minority, it must be pointed out to them, hence 99% vs 1%

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Originally Posted by Yenn

I like how people are using the term 'hardcore' and 'casual.' They aren't correct. The terms you're looking for are 'good players' and 'bad players.'
It's far enough into the game that anyone who can't down BC is bad.

SE is catering to bad players who lack basic motor skills, not 'casual' players. Even 'casual' players are already working on Turn 5.

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Exactly. Most of my fc is 'casual' and we been on turn 5. This game isnt hard lol.

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Originally Posted by Shug

You sir, are a true idiot. Thats like saying people that have lives and those that don't. Some of us have jobs and don't have 8-10 hours a day to play a game.

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Edit: How is he an idiot? LOL I think you are the one who is confused here, sir. He is saying that basically, if you are a good player, even people who do play a couple hours ('casual') a day can down BC. Like I said, My FC has plenty of members who are full time students AND work multiple jobs. We have been doing BC since September. It is all about being a good player or a bad one.

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

Tryhard was the wrong word, you are completely right (and I'm not trying to be facetious) - how bout nolifer? I'm talking about the hardcore crowd that pours time into a game like its a job.

And until the players posting these threads realize that they are the very very small minority, it must be pointed out to them, hence 99% vs 1%

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But they only put in 2 hours per week in FFXIV. That's far less than your average casual player. You don't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by permbanned

But they only put in 2 hours per week in FFXIV. That's far less than your average casual player. You don't make any sense.

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This is what I keep saying. lmao I don't see how people who play a couple hours or less and are downing T1-5 easily are a 'nolifer'

Shoot..if that's the case I guess we are oh so hardcore for playing a couple hours a night (If that) and beating BC o.ob

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Originally Posted by permbanned

But they only put in 2 hours per week in FFXIV. That's far less than your average casual player. You don't make any sense.

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So they put in 2 hours per week from launch and are complete ilvl 90, downed T5 and are bored? I'm talking about the players that do not stop playing at launch. I'm talking the players that put between 40-80 hours a week into the game at launch in order to be the world's first to beat a boss. Only because of that are they reduced to putting in only 2 hours a week. They blew through the content and are sad now that they have nothing to do. That's what happens at every launch. Come patch day, they're going to beat extreme mode in probably less than 2 days and be right back here complaining.

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Originally Posted by Husband

You quit? Yet you are still on here posting. Why do you care?

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I'm sorry that my posting on a forum thread discussing dungeon and game design for a game I enjoyed and wanted more from is somehow causing your experience to suffer. I suggest closing the open forum and entering the game while covering your ears and yelling Buddhist chants to restore peace to you. Though if you'd like to engage in the topic at hand with any sense of intelligence feel free to do so.

As not a single point of mine has been refuted I'll just take the time to agree with Raikki. This game is like climbing a mountain with heavy clouds. You work hard and climb up and when you finally break through the clouds the mountain suddenly ends. There's nothing at the top. Nothing to collect, professions are very useless outside making a single relic weapon, all the gathering materials in the game are simple to get so there's nothing to work towards, dungeons are a mess and a half, raiding content is simple even when we're supposed to be heavily under geared for it, and finally the new patch gives us lots of weak content to supplement.

But you guys seem to be missing the point of the whole thread. If you enjoy the game, that's great, keep playing and have fun! For those who are not enjoying it this is a discussion on how SE could improve their development to include some decent content for us. All that content we're asking for is things you'd be able to play too, so there's not even a net loss for you.

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

Come patch day, they're going to beat extreme mode in probably less than 2 days and be right back here complaining.

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Sure some people will. But anyone who's been in the game world very long understands content can only be created so quickly. The major problem with FF14 come from design choices and what they're focusing on. In no mmo world is 4 bosses of a dungeon an okay first patch when your game is already so barren. Ex.Primals are there I guess, rehashes of the same fight, but theres no real reason to do them but once and never go back if as the reports say the only drop a weapon equal to relic +1.

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

So they put in 2 hours per week from launch and are complete ilvl 90, downed T5 and are bored? I'm talking about the players that do not stop playing at launch. I'm talking the players that put between 40-80 hours a week into the game at launch in order to be the world's first to beat a boss. Only because of that are they reduced to putting in only 2 hours a week. They blew through the content and are sad now that they have nothing to do. That's what happens at every launch. Come patch day, they're going to beat extreme mode in probably less than 2 days and be right back here complaining.

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Ok so you're only talking about people going for world first on content. Then yeah, maybe they are only 1% of the playerbase. But what about those that took a casual approach at endgame, spent 20-40 hours at 2 hours a night on the hardest boss in the game, beat her and have nothing left to do now? It's still a progression-based play-style and there's still nothing left for them to do.

Are they nolifers too? Is it their fault they're bored? Because they didn't rush anything. And by the way, I'm willing to bet the majority that have cleared turn 5 and are bored now fall into this category.

If they're done with the linear progression and don't want to laterally progress (extreme modes, alt jobs, housing, etc.), then be bored. SE is gonna cater to the paycheck and not the small group of people that have cleared all the content and don't want to bother with all the other stuff.

If they need the challenge, I would suggest a different genre altogether. Nothing about any MMO is challenging in the least.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

In the original post, all that he suggests be released is hardcore content, and then just nerf old content to make it casual, that's not releasing casual content, that is recycling old content for the casual playerbase.And Coil and Crystal Tower were both originally scheduled for 2.0 release, but they had to delay crystal tower to balance it for alliances, so to keep the order of progression Coil should have been delayed too, so sorry, it wasn't given to everyone early, it just wasn't delayed the way it should have been to keep a linear progression, the devs made the decision to go ahead and release it, ahead of progressive content (early), to keep the end game population busy.

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Since this content is Hardcore, the casuals presumably would not have beaten it yet there for it would not be old or rehashed to them, just reworked to their difficulty level.Raiding in essence is linear, is progressive, and should be challenging. This topic solely discusses the raiding portion of the game. SE is of course adding much other content outside of the raiding portion of their game and they should continue doing this. This rework would not touch any of that other content but would simply rework the raiding timeline to allow for both casual and hardcore players to gain satisfaction from their released raiding content.
This approach has been used with much success starting in the WoW WOTL days when they released normal and hard mode difficulty levels. Even then the developers added a buff (In ICC) so that even more of their player base could experience the entirety of that raid in preparation for cataclysm. This type of system only becomes old and rehashed when it is done in the SWTOR style system:
Keep 2 raids at a time as current raiding content:
Make 3 difficulty levels for each with minor tweaks
Incorporate older raids as part of your token grind
This gets really old really quick when the dungeon you've progressed through becomes your next level of progression with minor tweaks.
By starting the raid hard and then reducing the difficulty 3-6 months later it keeps the raids fresh and hard for the higher progression players and once incorporated gives more casual player the chance to experience the same content.

This is my first real mmo so I dont have a grasp of what usually happens, but why do casuals need so much more content if they only play a few hours a week? all endgame content eventually becomes casual content so why do casuals get so annoyed when people talk about new dungeons and raids, it all trickles down eventually?

Release high lvl content = almost everyone plays it (in time)
Release lowbie content = a lot of people are already beyond it and dont need it

I dont understand why this sideways progression people talk about needs any new content at all, its already all there, its complete..

Must be hard being an mmo dev, wouldnt like that job..

I am actually very interested what casual players do on a normal week, in fact what define casual? a few dungeon run a week without capping myth?

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

If they're done with the linear progression and don't want to laterally progress (extreme modes, alt jobs, housing, etc.), then be bored. SE is gonna cater to the paycheck and not the small group of people that have cleared all the content and don't want to bother with all the other stuff.

If they need the challenge, I would suggest a different genre altogether. Nothing about any MMO is challenging in the least.

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"Hardcores" as you call us all crave lateral progress, that's exactly the point here. Go ahead, check me, I have all combat and crafting 50's with 1/3 gatherer's 50. I'm pretty excited about earning gambler's crown soon.

My main class (paladin), however, is still my main class. Its where I grow vertically, and I am very limited in my chance to do so. After months of coil the three pieces I'm missing have never dropped for our group. Due to the loot lock out systems (coils weekly lock, Ct's future 1 item lock) I am very hamstringed. More over, my secondary classes are all stalled at i70. No matter how much content I want to participate in, there simply isn't any way for me to gear scholar. More over, there isn't really a way for me to enjoy the power of my paladin. I can't take it into the hard content to help others (we power through coil, the only place my gear matters, and then we are locked out of it).

I can't join coil with weaker teams, I can't grind CT (in fact, there is no point in getting sch gear in CT since by time I can earn it, I will have enough myth to just buy the i90). Now, I'm very excited for the hard mode rewards. This is a great boon to hardcores as it will help us get multiple classes turn 5 ready, allowing for more flexibility, and the ability to re-experience the content in new ways with new challenges (healing instead of tanking).

Casuals talk about the armory system, the whole point is to play everything! Well I have! But... what do I do with my other classes? I can't take them into coil cus I'm locked out of it. As much as I have already geared my 50s and done all this other content, there is no real incentive. Even if I could conjur full i90 gear for my scholar, the hardest thing I can take it to right now is Titan. My quin melded vanya is already plenty over geared for that. I would love it if they made it so the coil lockout was per class (you can enter once as paladin, once as scholar, etc, even if it was role based (once as tank, once as healer, once as dps). This would add content to hardcores (even the most dedicated of players have at most 2 i90 geared classes) as it would be a fun new challenge: can we clear bocb in our darklight classes? This would also give casuals/new players more groups to join (maybe only 6 our of 8 of the main team want to run again on off classes, poof two slots with top tier players just opened up).

The new hard mode dungeons all drop i60. Which, is kinda awful for both casuals and hardcores. At least if it was i70 they'd offer alternate secondary stats for better "bis @ 70" depth. While I'm excited to play the new dungeons, which ever ends up fastest will be the only one I consistently see, which is sad.

I really didn't rush. I preordered this game in 1.0. I got all of my combat class 50s except pgl and thm when physical level was a thing. Trust me, there was no rushing that.

I have a luminary, I think there is nothing less-rushy than that. I'm close to a second one just from normal play.

I am very close to the platinum, which by default means I've done just about all the content there is.

I really enjoy playing the market (despite what some people say, it is possible to make quite a lot via professions and there is a lot of depth there, depth which will improve greatly in 2.1 with PVP and housing.)

I agree that many people who cry about lack of content do probably still have a lot of non-repeditive content left to them (by this I mean luminaries and the such, that's not really content in any enjoyable sense. I can't blame most people for not wanting to do it, but there is lots of other stuff). But there are just as many "hardcores' that really have started to run out.

If you want to level slow, do content slowly, that's cool. I don't begrudge you that at all. And this thread isn't asking to hamstring that in any way.

The OP asked that all new raid content be tuned to be very hard when it is first release, and at the next patch be nerfed. This isn't selfish. This is a compromise. Casuals will also get content each patch (ex; 2.2 turns 1-5 will be nerfed. that's the same as releasing new content to casuals as it was, by many arguments here, previously unavailable to them) as will hardcores.

These games are challenging. They require team building and community maintenance. Look at any "hardcore' company and you'll find individuals that pour in hours to maintain and grow their community, their team. The challenge is in bringing the team together and motivating them to loose for hours on end. Housing will only deepen this and I look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

I dont understand why this sideways progression people talk about needs any new content at all, its already all there, its complete..

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You're exactly right, the content is there. I've never gotten to do 1-4 on anything but paladin, and would love ot, but I can't. Because of the entry lock out, I never get to enter on anything but my main class, and to do so would be selfish. Why make my team use a lesser geared tank than mine so I can use my healer which has less gear than our normal healer? Repeating the relic quest all 8 times was great fun, each fight felt a little different and fresh for that reason. Titan is way different on monk than scholar. Its even radically different on scholar and white mage.

Many casuals point to the loot lock outs as adding depth, but really, I think they hurt casuals the most. Take titan. Personally, I have all relics. I also have all but one titan drop. Really, no reason for me to go there except one: helping others. I'm really good at the fight. I now have that skill, that proficiency level. I'm level 50 in Titan Killing. Say a casual or new player joins my FC and needs help, they're, maybe a level 5 Titan Killier. I can go help them, this is very rewarding to me and many others like me. I show up in awesome gear and with great know how and we help others. That same person goes to coil, and there is nothing I can do for them. All my loot does for me in coil is help me win with the other members of my team who all equally have mastery over the content. At least with CT i'll be able to help.. but they've made it sound like it will be quite easy so that will be fairly trivial (just providing a body to fill the slot).

I'm not a no-lifer either. I have a real job, I have a beautiful girl friend, I have friends, I play sports. I go out. This is just my hobby.

"There is plenty of content, just go do it. " You're right, there is plenty of content, SE Just won't let us do it. Because of the armory system, every new fight is really 8 new pieces of content. Playing each class on each fight offers unique challenges, but because of the lockout in coil, what could be 8x the content is limited to 1x. It would easily take the 2-3 months (or even 4-6 between 'hard' patches) to do coils 1-5 enough on every class to gear them up if the lock out was changed to one entry per class.

Even just being able to take 2 different classes into Coil each week would be great. Not sure if a lot of people really want to do it that many times to gear up every alt, and whats the point of all 8 of them? There's only 7 days in a week lol. Also a developer has to think about not putting too much pressure on his players, make sure people dont feel too rushed or forced to spam high end raids every day.
Sure it would double myth + coil loot, but the coil loot could have a system like CT is getting, and they have been talking about increasing mytho cap anyway. But it would double replayability.

Oh and totally agree with OP. Nerfed hardcore content = fresh new casual content

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Originally Posted by Megido

Even just being able to take 2 different classes into Coil each week would be great. Not sure if a lot of people really want to do it that many times to gear up every alt, and whats the point of all 8 of them? There's only 7 days in a week lol. Also a developer has to think about not putting too much pressure on his players, make sure people dont feel too rushed or forced to spam high end raids every day.
Sure it would double myth + coil loot, but the coil loot could have a system like CT is getting, and they have been talking about increasing mytho cap anyway. But it would double replayability.

Oh and totally agree with OP. Nerfed hardcore content = fresh new casual content

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I think allowing us three separate lock outs based on role (healer/tank/dps) for each week would not increase pressure on players. For those players who only care about one or two classes, this will result in no more need to play.For those players that crave me opportunity to challenge endgame with different classes and different groups this will open up more possibilities.

I also strongly believe it will make coil more accessible to casuals and new players. Right now, a new player joining my FC will never run coil with me, my group is set in stone, as are the other 5 teams. They have to wait for a new team with equally new players to form and progress all on their own. By allowing entry per role, they could find spots in the second and third runs (as not everyone in my team will want to do it three times, or even have the classes to do it). More people doing the content more often = more opportunity to do it. This would help bridge the gap between casuals and hardcores.


If you support the idea of coil lockout being based on combat role (I think per class would be excessive, but per role is a nice balance) please help bring attention to it in an effort to get a dev response!

I know I do this a lot but I'm going to compare FFXIV to other MMOs again. In most other MMOs separate classes are separate characters, so players that like to do raid content more than once per week have the lockout ability to do so. I really like the idea of lockout per role coupled with the changes originally suggested. (I don't like the idea of lockout per class as sometimes we switch classes depending on which turn we are doing but each player remains within their role)

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

Current system
2.0 = Coil (Hardcore)
2.1 = CT (Casual)
2.2 = Coil (Hardcore)
2.3 = CT (Casual)

So for those in established FCs that want to progress through new challenging content and don't just want 24 man mindless clobberfests like praetorium, we only get challenging content every 2 patches because Se wants casual raids too. But wait... isn't the current system like this?
2.0 = Coil (Hardcore)
2.1 = CT (Casual)
2.2 = Coil (Hardcore) nerf earlier coil
2.3 = CT (Casual)

So with the current system casuals are actually getting new content every patch while hardcore only get new stuff every 2. since it's too late for 2.1 why not just change the system like this?
2.0 = Coil (Hardcore)
2.1 - CT (Casual)
2.2 = Coil (Hardcore) nerf earlier coil
2.3 = CT (Hardcore)
2.4 = Coil (Hardcore) nerf earlier coil
2.5 = CT (Hardcore) nerf earlier CT

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The only change I would make is to not nerf coil. Coil will be nerfed naturally as casuals get gear. The difference between the casual and the hardcore is how quickly they obtain gear and challenge content. There are already plenty of ezmode ways (WP, AK, primals) to get myth tokens for ilvl90 gear. Once the casual obtains the gear then the casual can challenge the current unnerfed coils and see if they can beat it.

Now, if the casual can't beat coils at that point with good gear, then they have to decide to either 1) play better or 2) give up on that content.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

How about making an event where the Hardcores have to keep the casuals alive?

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I have often thought the toughest content in FF was keeping some poor shmoe alive. Imagine having to keep a casual gamer alive.... and all but the mark have random ability-and-or-gear lockouts like in FFXI. That is the definition of hardcore.

I would still nerf coil. for example T2 SE could reduce the dmg of rot rather than make it an instakill, reduce the duration or paralyze on a missed silence or reduce the rot debuff so u can make the pass rotation 3-4 people instead of 5. Any of those changes would make that particular coil more casual friendly. Leaving it as is an instakill mechanic is still an instakill mechanic no matter your gear. If they do nerf coil in 2.2 like they are planning to the hardcore will all be beyond this content anyways.

I just find this entire thread hilarious. Having a job and kids is the greatest excuse used among bad plays. I just beat turn 5 last Sunday with someone who only has a couple hours to play some days and none on others. He lives in Japan and has a family and a job. But he's not mentally handicapped. Also, stop saying the difference between hardcore and casual is time played. You're saying someone who logs on several hours a day to craft and talk in LSs is as hardcore as this guy in our group. Please. Don't embarrass yourself any further. The hardcore players are people who put a lot of effort into learning how to play the game and overcome challenges.
If you haven't completed Titan HM by now and you actually have been trying to do it, then you are just too incompetent to do anything. Go find another hobby. Don't tell me how to enjoy mine.

I don't want to just mess around on this game. I want some fun challenges and this pathetic new content it designed for the simple minded; people who just want to feel good even though what they're doing is mind numbingly easy for the capable; content for the kiddies. Well I'm a big boy and I want some big boy content.
The idea the OP proposed would satisfy the most people.

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Originally Posted by Shug

You sir, are a true idiot. Thats like saying people that have lives and those that don't. Some of us have jobs and don't have 8-10 hours a day to play a game.

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You certainly don't need to spend 8-10 hours everyday for 3 months to be good at the game.

It's plainly just being bad.

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Originally Posted by MisakiSatomi

You certainly don't need to spend 8-10 hours everyday for 3 months to be good at the game.

It's plainly just being bad.

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If your raids are taking 10 hours, i think you might need to evaluate your free company.

Self justification is a funny thing.