Do you guys like the Instadeath mechanic?

Insta dead move that are unavoidable (dodge/silence/stun):

Ifrit if nails still up
Garuda if all rock are very damage or gone
Titan if heart isn't kill
Odin last attack
Twintania rage
Titan/Demon wall because of falling damage (not really a move)

I think thats basically all of them, and most of them is a group fault not a single person and will wipe everyone not just one person. Didn't put twisters because you can actually avoid that (and should).

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Originally Posted by Ryios

Wow had tons of instant death mechanics. However their AOE indicators were exact, if you weren't in it on your screen you weren't going to get hit, Period!.

If I were SE, my absolute HIGHEST priority would be fixing hit box mechanics on aoe indicators, and I mean HIGHEST, if I had to I would set content patches asside and put all hands on deck to fix the aoe indicators before doing ANYTHING else. Most people playing can't play the fights at all without preemptively moving, and it's so dumb.


And I'm sure everyones seens the hundreds of videos of people not in landslides on the other side of titans platform getting knocked off over a second after he cast it.

Server Side HitBoxing on fight mechanics is so bad, Fix it.

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Quoted for truth! Making the AOE indicators client side, adding a couple seconds to the cast bars, making the indicator smaller. Any of these would help the tons of people that are dying out of the red.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Or it means using a controlled route you can still get to the datacenters in a time that it's possible, your ISP could do the same by increasing capacity, and whoever controls the transatlantic fibre (for EU players) can increase capacity we wouldn't get the slowdown, just the fact that a VPN or proxy can increase response time by the amounts some people state means the problem is not at SE but down to ISPs.

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And yet this is the only game people have this issue with....

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Originally Posted by Ryios

Wow had tons of instant death mechanics. However their AOE indicators were exact, if you weren't in it on your screen you weren't going to get hit, Period!.

To me, instant death mechanics are fine, but SE really REALLY needs to get on the ball with making the aoe hit boxing client side, period. SE stop worrying about people hacking fights, and worry more about making your player base happy and maybe you guys can make a game where 90% of your subs don't drop off on the first year.

If I were SE, my absolute HIGHEST priority would be fixing hit box mechanics on aoe indicators, and I mean HIGHEST, if I had to I would set content patches asside and put all hands on deck to fix the aoe indicators before doing ANYTHING else. Most people playing can't play the fights at all without preemptively moving, and it's so dumb.

And I'm sure everyones seens the hundreds of videos of people not in landslides on the other side of titans platform getting knocked off over a second after he cast it.

Server Side HitBoxing on fight mechanics is so bad, Fix it.

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AMEN!
/10char

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

And yet this is the only game people have this issue with....

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Yet this is the only game with an international community, the only suggestions I have seen, except Ryios' is further segregation of the community, I already see no Japanese players, I would really hate to loose others because of the need for segregation.

Just the fact people can use a VPN and increase response time a lot says the problem isn't SE or location of the servers (well some of it) it's down to the routes used and congested routes which is the only thing a controlled VPN has over ISP routes.

I love instant or near instant death mechanics. It's the only mechanics that keeps the dps liable for something.

As long as they can be healed through it, they'll blame healers for their screw ups. Which is basically one of the few things dps do correctly.

As said most instant death mechanics are actually just a gear issue. All other issues would be gone if hit detection in this game wasn't so bad. Other day on titan someone was standing with me and died to a bomb but I didn't get hit. That would not happen in any other game.

I played with people all over the US and Canada during my time in WoW. Never had hit detection problems.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

Insta dead move that are unavoidable (dodge/silence/stun):

Ifrit if nails still up
Garuda if all rock are very damage or gone
Titan if heart isn't kill

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If you are geared enough, Ifrit's special move does not kill you if nails are still up. I survive it every time it happens with almost 1000hp. Obviously I am way too geared to still be challenged by Ifrit HM, but I'm just stating a fact. It's only an insta-death to low gear which is what a lot of people are getting at. Since Ifrit is like that, I can only imagine the other two primals you have mentioned here are that way as well. I'm curious if a full Allagan/Myth PLD would die by Titan's special if heart wasn't killed.

Doom move counts as insta-death, I guess Demon Wall Repel if you get knocked off the edge (but that is basically bad player skills) so I don't count it as insta-death. Repel does damage to you. You are supposed to not die from Repel, so it is player's fault if wiped on Demon Wall. All other instances that are given are moves that cause HP damage. If a move was truly "insta-death" there would be no need for damage indicators because you would just die. I'm pretty sure that's how it works when you die to Doom (can't remember, haven't died in that dungeon in a long time)

Hate it. The most unforgiving part of the game is built on top of the most unstable part. Ugh.

I dislike how the game has a lot of high risk dodging. Titan is about as fun as taking your road test to get your license. Except if you fail 7 other people also have to take the test again.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

As said most instant death mechanics are actually just a gear issue. All other issues would be gone if hit detection in this game wasn't so bad. Other day on titan someone was standing with me and died to a bomb but I didn't get hit. That would not happen in any other game.

I played with people all over the US and Canada during my time in WoW. Never had hit detection problems.

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I recall seeing rouges run circles in Warsong randomly in the middle of the map, generally it was an AUS player thinking he was Mutilating the flag carrier. I'm assuming they have made improvements since that time.

Funny thing about hit detection in WoW, it lied!

I'm sure the unreasonable damage done by most abilities is indeed influenced by the fact that you can easily battle rez someone, except they forgot the fact that most of the time you just die immediately after you get rezzed because you can't move for 5 seconds so you'll usually be standing in the next instant kill effect.

I'm not sure if people are being purposely ignorant here, but you can't just look at one move and say 'not instant death'. If you stand in say a Repelling Cannon in ADS turn 2, it'll do something like 90% of your max HP unless you're extremely overgeared for the fight. Now that's not instant death, except ADS constantly does vacuum wave throughout the fight, so either you didn't start at 100% or you take a vacuum wave very shortly after the Repelling Cannon, and either way you end up dead so it is effectively instant kill. There are plenty of abilities that are effectively instant kill when you're not overgeared for the fight.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I dislike how the game has a lot of high risk dodging. Titan is about as fun as taking your road test to get your license. Except if you fail 7 other people also have to take the test again.

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That's, like, your opinion man. I think Titan is one of the most fun fights in the game.

If you don't dodge and it kills the group, then what does it matter if they make it so you die instead of doing some other thing that would destroy the group's chances? They want you to dodge or otherwise handle the abilities of a fight or be unable to complete it. I don't see anything wrong with that. The delay is a completely separate issue from what makes a good encounter, and is something they are currently working on. It seems like you just want fights to be easier and more forgiving. That's fine, but I'll have to disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

If you are geared enough, Ifrit's special move does not kill you if nails are still up. I survive it every time it happens with almost 1000hp. Obviously I am way too geared to still be challenged by Ifrit HM, but I'm just stating a fact. It's only an insta-death to low gear which is what a lot of people are getting at. Since Ifrit is like that, I can only imagine the other two primals you have mentioned here are that way as well. I'm curious if a full Allagan/Myth PLD would die by Titan's special if heart wasn't killed.

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No, you can't. You're left with around 1k HP as ranged after the nails are killed. I can't remember how much Hellfire hits for, but Titan's whatever it was called hits for about 11k, if you don't kill the heart. I believe Garuda is around that, too.

...Is it even called Hellfire?

Stone Vigil's final boss. He has an Onyxia-style Deep Breath like mechanic that he likes to spam after setting down a large number of ice shards. I've tried to avoid his shards only to find myself so embedded in his deep breath AOE that I get smacked with it. Boom, dead.

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Originally Posted by lord_naarghul

Stone Vigil's final boss. He has an Onyxia-style Deep Breath like mechanic that he likes to spam after setting down a large number of ice shards. I've tried to avoid his shards only to find myself so embedded in his deep breath AOE that I get smacked with it. Boom, dead.

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That ability is a pretty good example the 'technically not instant death' ability. It does about 90% of your HP to any non tank class and then it also burns about 10% of your HP every tick, so in theory you could survive that if your healer is super duper fast. In reality 99.9% of the time you just die to the dot immediately after. A lot of abilities in this game are basically sadistic. They make you think you have a chance to survive it but you really don't. At least something like an Earthen Fury without killing heart there's no mistake you won't be surviving that (11K damage) so you know it's over.

the only true instant death attacks are teratataur does doom, demon wall pushing you over the edge, titan knocking you out of arena, ADS allagan rot, twintania conflagration, twintania twisters, twintanias dreadguards, twintania divebomb knocking you out of arena, twintania dark birth(forget the actual name but its sort of like that), twintania's huge blast after snakes, and twintania's you ran out of time thing

only other thing i can think of is the primal limit breaks but those are more of a "you failed the encounter" than an instant death attack
and as you may have noticed more than half of them are on a single boss who's whole theme seems to be 'everything is fatal'


the one people seem to be quoting a lot is the stone vigils boss. It's not really instant death at all what is usually the case is someone getting hit by the ice bombs once or twice followed by the ice breath and the following frostbite dot without getting any healing because the healer is panicking instead of doing his job

Game needs more instant death. More challenge.

Man i was like u complain about it all the time, dyeing for the most time to two wol at titan, laser on ads... etc.. then once i've heard a member on fc sayw "just memorize battle and pre-move/sprint and u will be fine" i was so angry, have to memorize battle is kind sux because makes u look like a bot, but ive did it, i just memorize after each move he uses way of the land, pre-look to my team position to not go into their, and now i can do titan for several try before i die for something, of course sometimes i still take wol but i don't die for it anymore since i'm careful to if i'm going to take it, to be only one.

And on Ads i don't know if they nerf its cast, or i become faster but never took it again for quite a few weeks.

I don't use battleping or any of this thing, and play with a ping between 180-300 so if i can, u can as well, just learn to do more things at the same time, keep track of ur cds, stun, allies position, rots and thing always one move forward.

I see a lot of dragons and monk that care so much about keeping a high dps, that they fail in to avoid a lot of mechanics, do the opposite, sacrifice ur dps to avoid all dmgs, and u will note that with time it will become easier, and easier till the time u going to do it automatically and them u will be able to push a hard dps without taking dmg.

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Originally Posted by Bahram

That's, like, your opinion man. I think Titan is one of the most fun fights in the game.

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I agree with the first part of your post. I too find Titan to be actually quite fun to play, and I never found his mechanics to be overly difficult. I live on the west coast with average ping and I have never experienced the kind of lag/network issue people are complaining about (proof). I never memorized any patterns, I just moved when I see an attack coming and everything worked out fine.

I have no doubt the lag problem exists for some people, but I have a sneaking suspicion that for every legitimate claim of lag, there are 3 others that's simply due to people not wanting to own up to their mistakes, making the problem seem a lot worse than it is. Either way, that's what ultimately makes Titan frustrating. The worst part, to use Fawke's analogy, is not if you fail, but imagine instead a road test where you performed flawlessly but you failed anyway because one of the other 7 people you took the test with ran into a tree on the first corner.

Do people think saying 'there aren't many instant death abilities in this game' somehow makes them better? Try standing in a repelling cannons with only 4K HP on ADS turn 2 and see how often you actually live through that. Sure it doesn't do more than 4K damage but with the constant vacuum waves you'll rarely be at full HP when you take one. A 5 hit Tumult is not instant death either, but good luck surviving one with 2500 HP (a fairly typical HP after you get rezzed). I mean Tumult only does 700 damage X 5 hits, should be totally easy to survive with 2500 HP if your healer don't suck, right? Why do people ignore the context of the encounter when it is very obvious that most high end encounters pumps out constant damage throughout the encounter, which means you rarely have your max HP at the start of any big hit ability?

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I'm curious if a full Allagan/Myth PLD would die by Titan's special if heart wasn't killed.

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Nope, not possible. My WAR has around 11k HP with ToB, Food, Vit-pot etc and i tried to pop it during Titan's 2 Hour and HP actually capped at 9.2k ( i was like wth? ), so there is actually a set max HP for that move, otherwise i could avoid it since the dmg is a little over 10k from it.

Did anyone even mention Allagan Rot? Although I think a warrior with huge HP could survive that since it's only around 7.8-8k damage.

the only insta death mechanics i have seen are either in sunken temple or coil...

and all are completely negateable.

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With the fact that healers can battle rez an infinite number of times, it makes me wonder if this is what SE wanted. Adding in death and battle raises as an actual mechanic.

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Death and raises isn't the mechanic to look at here. Its all about balance, and SE is providing multiple ways to tip the scales in your favor. Anything that kills you MUST be avoided, this isn't really up for debate... However getting raised with a penalty, mid fight, is an option. If the healer finds they have nothing better to do with their time and mana than get your up after a unfortunate death, so be it. But they had to use that time and resource to do so; and you get brought back with the rez penalty.

I just wanted to address that death and raise aren't the mechanic of the fight. They wouldn't be included in a strategy on how to beat an average fight with these hard hitting enemy abilities. No, rather the fight would be about not getting hit in the first place, and the death when hit is to emphasize this mechanic; to make your dodging it less optional. Getting more gear and having members compensate for a mistake at or up to a point. I think there is a lot to be said in favor of just making a mechanic cause death, instead of everything taking you low. If everyone 'almost' dies all the time it puts much more pressure on healers than the one who didn't dodge, arguably.
I do hear what you are saying with the rest of it though. Its a hardcore mechanic, no doubt. Dodge or die ~
I feel like a large number of the fights in this game are more about repetition and retention than reaction. RR x R

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Too Long

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Each game design differently and this game is basically having a strict mechanic execution check. What you are doing right now is basically:

Complain to Nintendo about why Mario will die instantly when touch by a turtle and asking them to give Mario a HP bar like Links in Zelda....

Are you serious?

I basically summarize your long speech in one simple sentence, then I really starting to laugh at it. Different game is different game, different MMO is different MMO. Who said MMO must be following same pattern over and over? Go check Tera's unique combat system as a MMO.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

Do people think saying 'there aren't many instant death abilities in this game' somehow makes them better? Try standing in a repelling cannons with only 4K HP on ADS turn 2 and see how often you actually live through that. Sure it doesn't do more than 4K damage but with the constant vacuum waves you'll rarely be at full HP when you take one. A 5 hit Tumult is not instant death either, but good luck surviving one with 2500 HP (a fairly typical HP after you get rezzed). I mean Tumult only does 700 damage X 5 hits, should be totally easy to survive with 2500 HP if your healer don't suck, right? Why do people ignore the context of the encounter when it is very obvious that most high end encounters pumps out constant damage throughout the encounter, which means you rarely have your max HP at the start of any big hit ability?

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Repelling Cannons won't one-shot any melee unless they are woefully undergeared or they have vulnerability stacks (lol why?). Also you can, y'know, move out of it. Healing people with 15% weakness who have 2.5k HP through tumults is also not particularly difficult if the healer has any sort of competency (and assuming you're not on 9 tumults or something ridiculous, in which case your group has other issues). Obviously if you *start* casting as the tumults begin, people are going to start dying, so you simply need to precast heals and use cooldowns. Hell, you can even toss the weakened person a stoneskin prior to the tumults to give them a small extra buffer of HP.

Most high end encounters may pump out a lot of constant damage, but they all give you time to top people off before any big hit ability is on the way.

• Teratotaur (Qarn)
• Demon Wall (AK)
• Titan
• ADS (Turn2)
• Twintania (turn5)

Those are the only bosses I know of that have actual Instant death mechanics (aside from Enrage Timers and DPS checks). Depending on your gear, you can actually survive quite a bit of the heavy attacks that seems to 1-shot OP.
The Brink of death debuff is particularly harsh on tanks and DPS to ensure that, raising from death is not an expected course of action during fights.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

• Teratotaur (Qarn)
• Demon Wall (AK)
• ADS (Turn2)
• Twintania (turn5)

Those are the only bosses I know that have actual Instant death mechanics aside from Enrage Timers and DPS checks. Depending on your gear, you can actually survive quite a bit of the heavy attacks that seems to 1-shot OP.
The Brink of death debuff is particularly harsh on tanks and DPS to ensure that, raising is not an intentional course of action during fights.

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You forgot
-Titan Landslide after 1st geocrash
-Titan Plumes after heart phase if they are stacked
-WP Last Boss if you kill to many adds and the tank doesn't have the gear
-Turn 1 if you run from an add thats following you to far and it explodes

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Originally Posted by Ryios

snip

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You're only right about Titan. That makes five. Certainly nothing to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

SE: "Ok, How about we make it to were every boss can instantly kill you? Like... alot?"
SE2: "People won't like that... What if we make it an AOE so we can 'technically' claim that it's avoidable?"
SE1: "But, people won't die as much that way! I WANT DEATH AND CARNAGE!"
SE2: "Well, lets implement a .3 second delay! This way, the AOEs will be extremely difficult to avoid! Deaths all around!"
SE1: "Well, people will still complain... How about we let them battle rez all they want?"
SE2: "Hmm... I don't like it. Well, fine.. lets just make it to were the player raised will be frozen for 3 or 4 seconds, that way they will die again to the AOEs before they can even move!"
SE1: "DEATH!! I mean... DEAL!!"

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Don't forget about the part where:

SE2: "And to sweeten the death.. I mean deal.. let's make it so when they do get raised, all the healers around can waste MP trying to heal them and it won't go through for another 2 to 3 seconds PLUSSSS as a bonus feature, aoes placed under the healer who raised them exactly 2 second after the res goes off can still wipe out the unhealable poor bastard again because they can't move! Won't it be hiiiiiiilarious!!!!?"

Things are simple, instant death or near death mechanics are a cheap and efficient way of adding "difficulty" in an otherwise not so difficult encounter. A proper fight should be about tactics/skills/positioning/opportunities. What we got here is a static rotation with extemely unforgivable timers. Maybe something like this would work better with an offline console game but online games have latency/connectivity issues and dealing with stuff like this is not fun.

OP sounds like the typical DRG that enters stuff specifically to die out of nothing.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Complain to Nintendo about why Mario will die instantly when touch by a turtle and asking them to give Mario a HP bar like Links in Zelda....

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Bad Analogy is bad. Mario and Zelda are two entirely different genres of games. WOW/SWTOR and FFXIV are not. The fact is, most of the "challenge" in this game is avoiding AOEs. And since the Netcoding and lag is so bad for so many of us, we simply don't stand a chance a lot of the time. I literally never stand in stuff. Ever. I move as soon as I see anything bad. In other MMOs, that's always been good enough. With this one, it's hit or miss. I'll appear to have dodged the bad every single time, but I'll still end up being hit and then die half the time.

continued....

As other have said, they put all of the "challenge" in the most technically defunct part of their service/systems. Which is their server side client/netcode. If they can't accurately relay to the player when an AOE begins and then accurately receive the response whether the player was in or out of range properly, then the "challenge" really isn't a challenge anymore. It a part of the game that's broken.

To some extent I do like that bosses can 1 shot us in various occasions. One thing to me that broke immersion was 'You have this bad guy, who's so bad hes the head of bad guys but he really has no power to justify his position'.
In a world of magic and beastmen to me it is going to take something special to bring these people under your rule. Ifrit, Garuda, Titan are 'Gods' ... a god should be able to kill me with little to no effort if they wanted to, the surprise that I am ready for it, react, survive and kill them is part of that giant vs. an ant thing, where the giant underestimate his opponent and get caught with his pants down so to say and were able to defeat them.

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Originally Posted by cotti

OP sounds like the typical DRG that enters stuff specifically to die out of nothing.

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I "enter stuff to die out of nothing"? What does that even mean?

Twister, Unwoven Will and Doom are the only 3 instant death mechanics in the game as far as I know. Some might say that Twintania's arena perimeter is also an instant death mechanic, but I wouldn't think so. Everything else is damage based and can be mitigated, although I guess you can consider Zentetsuken instant death as well.