Duty Finder Etiquette

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Titan HM can be done in swimsuits...

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You do realize that the group that did it in swimsuits was a highly skilled FC that had ilvl 90 everything else, right? Even in swimsuits they had higher stats all around than most people do that join pugs.

Just because one group was set up and coordinated enough to do it, does NOT mean that gear isn't a requirement and that you can just roll into Titan HM in AF gear and GC weapon. Gear absolutely 100% matters.

Oooor people can learn to stay the EF out of Red Stuff.... This game is so blindingly easy.

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Originally Posted by Sunociva

Oooor people can learn to stay the EF out of Red Stuff.... This game is so blindingly easy.

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It would Be wicked if the game did not hit you when your out of the red stuff. Most people use there natural insticts to dodge it. Just the .3 lag to the hardcore gamers is to hard to overcome when so many are use to the last 8 years of dodging stuff in real time from mmos and FPS. and not getting hit. If your ISP to fast and running into a wall to long it will throttle down. Like if you run a car on a wall at slowly move it 100 MPH eventually your engine will slow down. For a lot people that got a good isp we run in to the switches that do that to us. and then throttle it down to 50% to 100% on the wall. While trying run through it.

Clear and concise, good job!

I ran a AK one time, and I just got this repeated impression that this drg was here for the first time, but I didn't say anything til we got to the demon wall.

IRL, I groaned, but politely typed "Polly Arm, is this your first time here? Just seems like it is. Speak up if so and I'll explain this fight cuz it's important."

"Nope, I know what to do"

FIRST repel he gets knocked off and says:

I don't remember him doing that before.

The other two in the group left before anyone could say anything else.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

PS I didnt even tank my Titan run and was LOLDPS. Still lasted longer than the other DPS and was hit by avoidable once, maybe twice.

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I tanked one titan, I happened to DF into a carry group for my second titan so my warrior was loldps for that and I lasted throughout too, but let's be honest-you have much higher hp than those loldps, defensive cooldowns, of course you're going to last longer than loldps. There's no chance Tumult is going to kill you, for instance, or a plume or three.

I usually say that it's my first time through a dungeon at the start, if people don't warn me about things and peeved thats on them.
Heads up to anyone doing Brayflox Longstop tonight I'll be tanking my first time in there tonight :)

Again people need to chill its a game not real world life and death situations, be patient with first timers.

You forgot always give advice in capital letters.

In Thousand Maws, STAY AWAY FROM THE EXPLODING PODS

Nice list :)

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Reread the person you quoted. It's why I mentioned speed runs.

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You were the person I quoted...

I don't think teaching new players how to do a dungeon should be part of this "etiquette" list. It's not fair that, if I end up being the only experienced person, all the responsibility of explaining everything falls on me. If people who are new don't want to let their team down, they should at least take two seconds to google the fights to inform themselves. That's my opinion.

With that said, I actually have explained bosses quite a few times. I just think it's rude to expect it.

I think this applies to general in-game etiquette, not just the Doodie Finder.

I like how this is like an extended version of my sig. I agree with everything.

Why can't I find more players like you? LOL.

Very nice. Thumbs up for you.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I don't think teaching new players how to do a dungeon should be part of this "etiquette" list. It's not fair that, if I end up being the only experienced person, all the responsibility of explaining everything falls on me. If people who are new don't want to let their team down, they should at least take two seconds to google the fights to inform themselves. That's my opinion.

With that said, I actually have explained bosses quite a few times. I just think it's rude to expect it.

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I should have probably been more clear on this, but what I mean is, if you are going to have an issue with your group, and you are going to leave it is much better to teach someone something than just quit and wait 15 extra minutes.

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Originally Posted by Sunociva

Oooor people can learn to stay the EF out of Red Stuff.... This game is so blindingly easy.

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Yes it is, but like someone stated before, there is an issue with server lag, and the .3 second delay. Even if you are out of red you still get hit. I suffer from this, among other issues, like game crashes and bugs (submitting tickets). This does hurt and it personally bothers me when others can't see what you can. That being said I am working my way through coil, beaten turns 1 and 2, and my team mates are aware of the issue and work with it. This doesn't mean the content cannot be done.

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Originally Posted by Zedine

I should have probably been more clear on this, but what I mean is, if you are going to have an issue with your group, and you are going to leave it is much better to teach someone something than just quit and wait 15 extra minutes.

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There's only so many ways I can say "Don't stand in the plumes." I'd rather spend 15 minutes waiting than 15 minutes watching someone repeat the same failure over and over.

And honestly, I don't want that person to make it. It's nothing against them, they're just not ready. They're clearly out of their league, and should be working on mastering some of the easier content. Carrying them through content they're incapable of is just going to be more frustration for them and whatever unfortunate souls get matched with them later on down the road.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

There's only so many ways I can say "Don't stand in the plumes." I'd rather spend 15 minutes waiting than 15 minutes watching someone repeat the same failure over and over.

And honestly, I don't want that person to make it. It's nothing against them, they're just not ready. They're clearly out of their league, and should be working on mastering some of the easier content. Carrying them through content they're incapable of is just going to be more frustration for them and whatever unfortunate souls get matched with them later on down the road.

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Telling someone "dodge" doesn't help. They want to dodge, do you think they want to get hit? Maybe they don't know the pattern, or the range well or that the attack hits you when the casting bar finishes not when the mark leaves the floor. Telling someone the pattern helps you more than telling someone to dodge. Maybe refer them to a guide (since now they get no spoilers). They can't get better at something without trying it over and over.


Also this is a general case, people seem to be focusing on titan only. Titan is the hardest content pre-coil and with all honesty with FC's selling Titan wins you rather they get their win that way than by getting it themselves? What player do you rather have in coil? The guy who purchased his relic or the guy who wiped 100 times to titan but learned the fight and became better because of it?

I'm not making a guide to the game, I'm asking the community to treat each other a little better. Letting them know that there will be things you will bump into in Duty Finder, and giving advice on how it should be dealt with.

I think it'd be a good idea to explain which red circles you have a lot less time than it appears to dodge, but most people never figured that out to begin with so they can't explain it. This could be trivial stuff like the first boss in WP, or it can be quite serious loike Desolation used by the last guy in D Hold. "Dodge nasty stuff on ground" is usually sufficient as an explanation, but not when you know there are especially fast casting nasty stuff going on. It'd be unfair to just say 'dodge WotL' without emphasizing that the timing on WotL is extremely unforgiving.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

You do realize that the group that did it in swimsuits was a highly skilled FC that had ilvl 90 everything else, right? Even in swimsuits they had higher stats all around than most people do that join pugs.

Just because one group was set up and coordinated enough to do it, does NOT mean that gear isn't a requirement and that you can just roll into Titan HM in AF gear and GC weapon. Gear absolutely 100% matters.

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What you are really saying is weapons are the only important gear right? Because a couple defense and some fire resistance isn't going to stop anything. So I can't agree that gear is everything. And I never said it wasn't a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

You were the person I quoted...

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I am not McShiggs, the person you quoted, who was speaking of speedruns. Read the post before the one where you quoted me and stated you were agreeing with Mcshiggs.

I am McShiggs, and I like key lime pie.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

I tanked one titan, I happened to DF into a carry group for my second titan so my warrior was loldps for that and I lasted throughout too, but let's be honest-you have much higher hp than those loldps, defensive cooldowns, of course you're going to last longer than loldps. There's no chance Tumult is going to kill you, for instance, or a plume or three.

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While true about the tumults, just because I can take an extra hit, doesn't mean I should let it happen. Plus, I went in with STR accesories and no defiance, so my HP wasn't as high as it normally would be. Also since I went in with 30 bonus to STR at the time, that was even less HP than normal.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I am McShiggs, and I like key lime pie.

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I can agree with key lime pie. Nom nom.

yup agreed, although it's not really in our nature to behave perfectly so yeh...

I couldn't agree with you more.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

I think it'd be a good idea to explain which red circles you have a lot less time than it appears to dodge, but most people never figured that out to begin with so they can't explain it. This could be trivial stuff like the first boss in WP, or it can be quite serious loike Desolation used by the last guy in D Hold. "Dodge nasty stuff on ground" is usually sufficient as an explanation, but not when you know there are especially fast casting nasty stuff going on. It'd be unfair to just say 'dodge WotL' without emphasizing that the timing on WotL is extremely unforgiving.

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And sometimes the game is at fault. For example this video shows a clear issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg33BjzwLWw
At the 8 second mark he is clearly out of the red and the casting bar still isn't completely filled. yet he still gets hit by the laser.

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Originally Posted by Zedine

And sometimes the game is at fault. For example this video shows a clear issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg33BjzwLWw
At the 8 second mark he is clearly out of the red and the casting bar still isn't completely filled. yet he still gets hit by the laser.

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The game's lag is consistent, but it matters more on abilities that have less forgiving timers. You simply have less time to get out of some AEs, regardless of the lag, and it's useful to point out when you're under especially tight constrains. Just saying 'dodge WotL" really glosses over the fact that the timing on WotL pretty much requires you to move the moment it appears on your screen, and even that isn't always enough.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

The game's lag is consistent, but it matters more on abilities that have less forgiving timers. You simply have less time to get out of some AEs, regardless of the lag, and it's useful to point out when you're under especially tight constrains. Just saying 'dodge WotL" really glosses over the fact that the timing on WotL pretty much requires you to move the moment it appears on your screen, and even that isn't always enough.

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It actually isn't consistent. Some people have not suffered from things like what I posted on the video. Also in some cases I see on my screen people being hit by multiple things on my screen yet they take no damage since on the server and their screen they were out of the way. And sometimes on my screen I am no longer in the red and casting bar isn't completed and I still get hit. So if me being out of the AOE range while casting isn't complete is no indicator of whether I will get hit or not, then it just adds to player frustration. SE has stated on this and that they are trying to fix it. What I am saying is it seems unfair to take it out on players who suffer this when SE has admitted it to be an issue.

It's nice when someone comes in and is willing to explain everything and help everyone through. You should appreciate it. It should never be expected. Being nice, open, and honest with people will increase the chances they are willing to do this nice thing for you. Don't be surprised or angry when they do the things they're supposed to and leave after a healthy number of tries. They did nothing wrong.

That's just my opinion. That said, it's a good thing to help explain when it's needed. I routinely do what I can to help people through.

The lag in this game is very consistent. Once you know enough about it you'll pretty much always know when you will and will not get hit. Not every ability in this game is equally hard to dodge. Take WotL, we'll guess it's about 2s to cast, and looking at people's reaction it takes around 1-1.8s for people to get out of it (1.8s would be a very close call). The lag in this game is roughly around 0.5s. So a person who can get out in 1s will never feel lag, while a person who need 1.8s to get out will always be 'lagged', and someone who gets out at around 1.5s will sometimes be 'lagged'.

Now compared to say Overpower, a common move used by a whole mess of stuff. It looks like it takes about 2s to cast, but it takes less than 1s to avoid it (strafe left or strafe right), which is why you never hear people about lag on Overpower, because even a very slow player can usualy get out in under 1s so the lag cannot possibly be enough to make it hit you.

The problem with the 'lag' issue in general is that people don't realize that the game never appears to be lagged if you're fast enough, and further the said 'lag' only affects abilities that have extremely tight checks and very dire consequences. Most people can't dodge the AE on the first boss in WP but you don't see people crying about that, because getting hit by it is just a minor annoyance. If that AE just instantly killed you, you'd suddenly have a lot of threads complaining about lag in that particular encounter. So, a good leader should be aware when an encounter has a particularly tight check on timing as well as a particularly devastating consequence for failing. D Hold's Desolation is a good example of such an ability. If you're just casually trying to avoid it, you'll almost always 'lag' and then die. You have to treat it like a WotL type ability that must be avoided at all costs but that requires someone recognizing it as such.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

The lag in this game is very consistent. Once you know enough about it you'll pretty much always know when you will and will not get hit. Not every ability in this game is equally hard to dodge. Take WotL, we'll guess it's about 2s to cast, and looking at people's reaction it takes around 1-1.8s for people to get out of it (1.8s would be a very close call). The lag in this game is roughly around 0.5s. So a person who can get out in 1s will never feel lag, while a person who need 1.8s to get out will always be 'lagged', and someone who gets out at around 1.5s will sometimes be 'lagged'.

Now compared to say Overpower, a common move used by a whole mess of stuff. It looks like it takes about 2s to cast, but it takes less than 1s to avoid it (strafe left or strafe right), which is why you never hear people about lag on Overpower, because even a very slow player can usualy get out in under 1s so the lag cannot possibly be enough to make it hit you.

The problem with the 'lag' issue in general is that people don't realize that the game never appears to be lagged if you're fast enough, and further the said 'lag' only affects abilities that have extremely tight checks and very dire consequences. Most people can't dodge the AE on the first boss in WP but you don't see people crying about that, because getting hit by it is just a minor annoyance. If that AE just instantly killed you, you'd suddenly have a lot of threads complaining about lag in that particular encounter. So, a good leader should be aware when an encounter has a particularly tight check on timing as well as a particularly devastating consequence for failing. D Hold's Desolation is a good example of such an ability. If you're just casually trying to avoid it, you'll almost always 'lag' and then die. You have to treat it like a WotL type ability that must be avoided at all costs but that requires someone recognizing it as such.

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Again not consistent. Someone having internet lag has in addition the .3 second delay from the server lag, they are two different things. The .3 second server delay is consistent, but internet connections are not. I know this since a good friend of mine plays from Australia, And let me tell you, he cannot dodge unless he is already moving.

I agree for the rest, but the issue at hand here is the Duty Finder, a good leader has a group, on a random Duty Finder the leader should be the Tank as he leads the party, but lets say the tank is new as usually in Duty Finder most people are. What then? Like i stated several times, The issue seem to have is Titan, and I am talking mainly of general cases. Titan is not the end all be all of Duty Finder. Besides that there is no leader. I have had several Groups where they see me in Allagan and Relic +1 and people try and force a speed run with out saying anything. With out warning I have seen healers pulling with Holy and Black Mages pulling with Flare. They don't know if I have Provoke up, or if I have experience with speed runs, they just do it.

The same goes with Titan, people don't know if others know about WotL, they just assume they do. And when they get hit and wipe they leave on 1st wipe. That's what I am trying to say here. The lag issues and everything else is separate. And speaking of WotL it can be avoided but when 4 stack and people don't stack it properly, there is occasions when you have no where to run. regardless of your reaction time/lag you cannot run out of the ven diagram made of 4 WotL. And you cannot know about this with out the experience, and which you cannot get when people leave the duty finder.

All these people blaming server lag instead of moving earlier.... sad. If you "Move out of red" and still die, it means you didn't move fast enough, waited till a cast got off, or hesitated. Like so many people say, it's a pattern, and if you know the pattern, then you can anticipate what is coming next and be ready to move. Min Maxing a cast isn't going to do anything if 3 dps die or a healer dies. Stop.Being.Bad.And.Learn.To.Play.

Hopefully the the patch will help alot of this, with them increasing the character to server updates for things like the Titan. Not help with people surviving, but help those that have trouble see that it is them, and not the mysterious lag that only occurs on the moves you die on, not the ones you dodge. I'm sick of people not getting hit until the heart phase, then suddenly lag kicks in and they die, if you were able to dodge plumes after the first jump, you should be able to for the rest of the fight, if you get mad because you died to bombs because you were "following me," that's your problem, if you are following you are a step behind, and that is why you died. Once the fight picks up people get focused on rotations and procs and what not, and ignore the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Hopefully the the patch will help alot of this, with them increasing the character to server updates for things like the Titan. Not help with people surviving, but help those that have trouble see that it is them, and not the mysterious lag that only occurs on the moves you die on, not the ones you dodge. I'm sick of people not getting hit until the heart phase, then suddenly lag kicks in and they die, if you were able to dodge plumes after the first jump, you should be able to for the rest of the fight, if you get mad because you died to bombs because you were "following me," that's your problem, if you are following you are a step behind, and that is why you died. Once the fight picks up people get focused on rotations and procs and what not, and ignore the mechanics.

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This guy gets it +1

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Originally Posted by Sunociva

All these people blaming server lag instead of moving earlier.... sad. If you "Move out of red" and still die, it means you didn't move fast enough, waited till a cast got off, or hesitated. Like so many people say, it's a pattern, and if you know the pattern, then you can anticipate what is coming next and be ready to move. Min Maxing a cast isn't going to do anything if 3 dps die or a healer dies. Stop.Being.Bad.And.Learn.To.Play.

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You must have not seen the video I linked.

There are lag issues, but that isn't the problem, the main problem is even if they fail to lag or if they missed or messed up, or are unfamiliar people leave. People expect to get turn 5 coil groups in Titan Duty Finder and I find that highly unfair. Hell, people leave just by looking at party line up (no mage DPS on ifrit, or double war) People leave on one wipe on AK or WP, regardless of the reason.That isn't what this post is about. yes people have lag issues yes people use it to hide their short comings, and yes people did fail to dodge. But that's why I say people should admit their mistakes. This post is mainly the attitude people have in Duty Finder, what you will encounter, and what should be done.If you wipe 20 times on DF Titan then yes more than likely you need to leave. But because someone failed to dodge plumes a few times then died, then the run wiped, that is no reason to leave. you have 1 hour tops to beat the run and you should try more than once. Seriously people need to stop focusing on Titan. Duty Finder has over 20 things to do besides Titan. People leave in Sastasha , people leave on Garuda. Duty Finder is and will be More than Titan hard Mode. You missed the point of this by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Hopefully the the patch will help alot of this, with them increasing the character to server updates for things like the Titan. Not help with people surviving, but help those that have trouble see that it is them, and not the mysterious lag that only occurs on the moves you die on, not the ones you dodge. I'm sick of people not getting hit until the heart phase, then suddenly lag kicks in and they die, if you were able to dodge plumes after the first jump, you should be able to for the rest of the fight, if you get mad because you died to bombs because you were "following me," that's your problem, if you are following you are a step behind, and that is why you died. Once the fight picks up people get focused on rotations and procs and what not, and ignore the mechanics.

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"Fix this", fix Titan wipes being blamed on lag? Or Fix the attitude this community has on Duty Finder? I hope it's the latter... I rather die 20 times to Titan then have to play with terrible players... and let me be a bit more specific. Not players that are bad at the game or players that die constantly, but players that have a terrible attitude.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

What you are really saying is weapons are the only important gear right? Because a couple defense and some fire resistance isn't going to stop anything. So I can't agree that gear is everything. And I never said it wasn't a requirement.

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The only thing they're missing in the video is body/legs. They're still wearing head, hands, belt, feet, neck, ears, wrist, and rings. Their stats are significantly higher than your average pug. Again, gear DOES matter. A lot. People keep saying "They did it in bikinis!" as if the group was naked, but in fact they were essentially wearing 10 out of 12 pieces they normally would, which consisted mostly of ilvl 70/90 gear.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

The only thing they're missing in the video is body/legs. They're still wearing head, hands, belt, feet, neck, ears, wrist, and rings. Their stats are significantly higher than your average pug. Again, gear DOES matter. A lot. People keep saying "They did it in bikinis!" as if the group was naked, but in fact they were essentially wearing 10 out of 12 pieces they normally would, which consisted mostly of ilvl 70/90 gear.

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Are you sure? Because I know the bard was wearing 60-70 ilvl. They probably had +1 weapon, but most of the gear appears to have been AK with 3 pieces of DL. Missing 28-44 VIT with those two pieces alone. Missing 146-162 DEF.

Pause at 54 seconds in, it starts at 50:

http://youtu.be/z5gSvsgH5VQ?t=50s

For those people who think it cannot be done, I did all 3 primal fights in under 2 hours last night on my Dragoon for Relic, and my Dragoon has mainly Hetarios set and Grand Company Weapon. So yes it can be done, and no i wasn't carried by several Relic+1 Allagan players. We did a standard 2 Tanks 2 healers 4 DPS , which 4 people needed relics for. Including 2 DPS.

An etiquette I would add: Answer if you're asked a question. I lost count on how many times I asked something like "Hey X, wanna do strategy A or B?" And there is no reaction at all. Even PS3 players should be able to formulate short sentences. It kinda feels rude if you get ignored.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Excellent suggestions. My one quibble is on avoiding guides/videos prior to runs. For most leveling dungeons this is fine, as experienced team mates can provide the few pointers needed.

But for hard mode primals (and I presume coil, though I'm not there yet), it is sadly necessary to go in the first time having been briefed up on the fight's mechanics. For hard end game content SE is (in my view overly) mechanics happy. Not learning what you can of them in advance will do you and your group a real disservice.

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this is one of the sad posts i always see, and it just makes me feel bad for people..........most of the fights are not that tough to begin with, and some of them are simple just to explain...people need to learn to explain better rather than telling people to watch a video

and for those idiots that say "exp required" and then tell someone to watch a video, a VIDEO DOES NOT MAKE YOU EXPERIENCED.........

People should never, ever expect every duty finder run to go smoothly. Go in with knowing that you have inexperienced players, and or not skilled but are practicing and need to learn. It pretty much boils down to for me if we wipe once or twice, I'll keep mental notes about what went wrong and ask if someone knows the fight. Or ask if they need help or don't understand something. The mechanics for fights in this game are not that terribly difficult. Not like other mmo's out there. It doesn't take that much time to explain something in at least 5 sentences or less. Be courteous and the general populous will be and treat you the same.

Yeah, it sucks that sometimes someone wastes the other three or seven people's time for whatever reason, but if you don't want to be subjected to that, don't use the duty finder and find a friendly FC or shout (bulletin board soon) for an established player group. Do not expect people to know strats for fights and watch videos. You can expect that if you make your own groups and set your own requirements, don't expect that for the general public.