So, what do PALADINS get in 2.1?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Sword Oath is your DPS stance. Why would you want to have your DPS stance generate more enmity than your tank stance? I agree that Sword Oath should get an enmity reduction property so it may be properly used as a DPS stance.

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i would rather have another skill that combos with riot blade...

All of the people that are foolish enough to think WAR has such a substantial DPS lead are just that, foolish. With the changes coming, it is very possible WAR will lose DPS as well with new rotations, assuming is just that, assuming.

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Originally Posted by louispv

PLD already had, plus storm's path and inner beast. Storm's path and inner beast are lowering the damage the enemy does

We just won't see 2 healer/1 tank/5 dd's anymore, we'll see 2 healer/WAR/PLD/4 DD groups. Or maybe 1 healer/PLD/WAR/ 5 DD. PLD got almost all the buffs WAR got.

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Inner Beast
- Due to overall balance changes, HP absorbed by damage dealt will be reduced from 300% to 100%
- Damage taken will be reduced by 20% for 6 seconds.

read much?

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Yeah, I'm not really sure that going the straight buff route is necessary for PLD.
Like many others have said, fix/tweak a few abilities so that they are more relevant like Tempered Will and maybe rejigger some abilities so that they create new combos to add more complexity and variety to playing a PLD.

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Tbh that's all we need. ..

sword oath needs threat down modifier.

awareness needs to work properly.

Bulwark maaaaaybe needs a shorter cd.

tempered will needs to actually do something.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Tbh that's all we need. ..
sword oath needs threat down modifier.
awareness needs to work properly.
Bulwark maaaaaybe needs a shorter cd.
tempered will needs to actually do something.

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Also shield swipe could really be made to have a purpose.
Pacification just doesn't really work and everything seems to resist it, so maybe a different actually useful debuff and some extra threat so that it is worth actually using.

They need to buff Awareness (which would also buff WAR seeing as they can cross class it) and take shield swipe off the GCD.

Everything else is fine.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Tbh that's all we need. ..

sword oath needs threat down modifier.

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Hate will always be off you as long as you don't go balls to the wall with Halone combos early.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

awareness needs to work properly.

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Agree. It's pretty useless currently.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Bulwark maaaaaybe needs a shorter cd.

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It's already quite strong against groups, and would be even stronger if shield swipe was better

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

tempered will needs to actually do something.

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It's already got niche uses against Ifrit, Titan (if you 2 tank it) and Demon Wall. Just add more knockback mechanics and it'd be great.

Stance dancing please. Give the oaths a 10 second cooldown but remove it from the gcd. Then have sword oath modify a sword based skill (while keeping potency bonus) that paladins would want to use while tanking. Shield oath can either stay as it is or also modify shield based skills (while current effects). MP cost of stances can stay.

Possible examples:
While in sword oath, circle of scorn grants additional enmity.
While in sword oath, riot blade can combo into rage of halone. (someone above this post wants a combo off riot blade)
While in shield oath, shield swipe pacifies enemies within 3 yalms of the paladin (I'm trying really hard not to mess with direct mitigation bonuses in situations that matter which might displease people)

Basically I want to be enticed into going into sword oath mid tanking to enjoy sword oath skill benefits but if I do it at the wrong times, I'd suffer heavier damage due to base mitigation loss from not using shield oath. Outside of fight mechanics, paladin class itself is very simple compared to others and paladin has 5 skills..2 as "turn on at the beginning of the dungeon and leave it on forever save for rare cicumstances of passing or taking over", 1 as a skill that most paladin likely ignores or so rarely use they forgot they even have it, leaving 2 useful skills (1 rarely used due to cooldown and nature of the skill).

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Originally Posted by Dedayius

There's something interesting. Get rid of our terrible cooldowns that are essentially useless and replace it with a damage buff that drains MP while active. Also make sword oath reduce enmity gained so we can use more than a couple of buttons.

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...or even, shudder the thought, make Shield Oath actually give us +aggro, as advertised.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Stance dancing please.

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No thanks, all stance dancing led to in other games was ridiculous amounts of micro management to play optimal which isn't fun it's tedious.

I'd rather see Sword Oath become more of an off-tank DPS/Solo stance giving us access to an entirely new combo or something off of riot that we can use frequently without pulling off the MT.

If you're really aching for something to press just before a large hit then I think a 'Shields-up!' style ability would be more fitting. Something that Increases your block chance to 100% for the next 2-3 seconds on a 10-15 second cooldown. There's a penalty for mindless pressing it on CD and in incorrect/missed timing.

First and foremost you are a Tank. In any pressing content no one would ever trade -20% damage reduction for a slight DPS boost and if you can make that trade often enough to see a difference then the fights you are doing are already trivial.

I agree that it would be neat to have the stances open to unique tool sets but I'd rather see one for tanking and one for off-tank/DPS utility moments than something I'm actively juggling while MTing.

idk, I main tank with Sword up quite often, I'd prefer it didn't reduce my enmity (as the DPS increase produces more) but that's me, and I don't know a whole lot.

90% of these suggestions I have made in older posts, but everyone just told me "you're level 24 you can't talk about balance issues." lol

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

...or even, shudder the thought, make Shield Oath actually give us +aggro, as advertised.

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It does, seriously, whoever perpetuated the idea that Shield oath doesn't have an enmity modifier is re-re.
Flash generates more enmity with shield oath up than it does with Sword oath.

The issue is the damage loss for a Paladin is 25%, and I suspect the Enmity modifier is only 20%.

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Originally Posted by Sin_Nombre

I'm easily going back to my warrior...

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As you've already determined the 2.1 flavor of the month, I thought you might be interested to know in advance that for 2.2 it will be Tapioca. Better reroll now!

People asking for a negative thread modifier on Sword Oath must've forgotten what 30-40 tanking was like, especially for average tank players that aren't too skilled at tabbing around with their combo yet.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

It does, seriously, whoever perpetuated the idea that Shield oath doesn't have an enmity modifier is re-re.
Flash generates more enmity with shield oath up than it does with Sword oath.The issue is the damage loss for a Paladin is 25%, and I suspect the Enmity modifier is only 20%.

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Its suppose to, but its not as potent as I might think it should. Yeah when I'm through AK, Flash with Shield Oath produces more hate than Flash with Sword Oath. Sure its working, as i see noticeable difference in holding hate against my party. Where its noticeably broken is when I'm in GarudaHM or TitanHM. Particularly noticed how bad it was when i was off-tanking with a main tank that had identical gear as me. While he was in Shield Oath, i'm in Sword Oath, he started first for the pull with shield lob. then starts with Halon Combo, i shortly follow with Halon Combo too and within seconds we are fighting for aggro. THAT mechanic SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. yet it does.

Anyway, those who call for enmity reduction on sword oath, no.....just no....We still need enmity built during sword oath. Otherwise 30-40 will never use sword oath for dungeons, and sword oath becomes only used during offtanking situations. What we need is stronger divide between enmity built from Shield Oath and enmity built for Sword Oath.

I do wonder, do Defianced WARs fight for aggro with Non-Defianced WARs with equal gear?

Paladins get a free box of tissues.

What do Paladins get?
The ability to share.

But seriously...
Outside of a couple, tiny, small issues, the Paladin class/job is easily one of the strongest and more fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Tashigi

What do Paladins get?
The ability to share.

But seriously...
Outside of a couple, tiny, small issues, the Paladin class/job is easily one of the strongest and more fun to play.

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Yes, while some PLD are overreacting, many are not asking to get a straight buff for the class but just some small tweaks, fixes and at most a new combo for Riot Blade to add a layer of complexity to the overly simplistic combo system for PLD because we think it would be more fun.
In fact some of the tweaks that I have supported, as a PLD main, where slight improvements to WAR abilities such as Mercy Stroke and Bloodbath because I would like them to be better as cross class skills.

Response such as "Go qq some more PLD" or "Just another scared PLD who doesn't want to share" whenever anyone suggests any potential alterations to PLD, particularly when it is asking for the small fixes or tweaks, is imo just as bad as a PLD overreacting about the WAR changes.

Both sides should listen to each others opinions rationally and respectfully just as those opinions should be presented rationally and respectfully.
If you do, you may just find a nugget of truth in what the other side is saying.

If Paladins do get a change, I would like Cover to have longer range...I feel like I must stretch out my arm IRL to save a healer who's getting smacked in the head from a lazy offtank.

(10 yalms if anything...)

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

If Paladins do get a change, I would like Cover to have longer range...I feel like I must stretch out my arm IRL to save a healer who's getting smacked in the head from a lazy offtank.
(10 yalms if anything...)

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I could definitely get behind that as it would make Cover much easier to use to protect a healer that accidentally grabbed agro or other emergency situations, but I think if that were to happen the range for Holmgang should be increased to the same. It wouldn't make Holmgang's defensive capabilities better but it would make the utility aspect of moving a mob to where you want it better, plus it would look cool ;)

Paladins are supposed to main tank heavy hitting bosses.
Warriors are supposed to tanks many groups of adds

Two different play styles and two different tanking classes
One class is not suppose to out shine the other they are supposed to work together to achieve the same goal.
This is not PVP kids this is PVE.

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Originally Posted by Swordthane13

Paladins are supposed to main tank heavy hitting bosses.
Warriors are supposed to tanks many groups of adds

Two different play styles and two different tanking classes
One class is not suppose to out shine the other they are supposed to work together to achieve the same goal.
This is not PVP kids this is PVE.

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No tank is supposed to do anything. In fact, PLD would be better than WAR for add tanking due to being able to mitigate more, thus making opportunity for the healer to throw some damage in there.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

It does, seriously, whoever perpetuated the idea that Shield oath doesn't have an enmity modifier is re-re.
Flash generates more enmity with shield oath up than it does with Sword oath.

The issue is the damage loss for a Paladin is 25%, and I suspect the Enmity modifier is only 20%.

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Sorry, should have been clearer. I understand that there's a +threat modifier in Shield Oath. It is just that the buff does nothing more than (maybe) make up for the loss in threat from the damage reduction. Seems a tanking stance ought to actually give you real net +threat.

Originally Shield Oath did give something like a 2x enmity modifier, but then they reduced it to try and make enmity management more difficult.

If WARs are getting a boost to their mitigation, I only think it's fair that PLD get a boost to AoE tanking capability. Increase enmity gained from flash by 200-300% and introduce a new ability called "Hold the Line". For it's 20 second duration, block all attacks and take half damage from everything. You're rooted in place and you can't attack, so before popping this ability, make sure you have good aggro.

And since we're blurring the line between PLD and WAR, let's just merge the two jobs into a Warridin. Yeah! A job that has excellent AoE threat ability plus the best mitigation in the game. I'd play that.

Actually wouldnt mind replacing Tempered Will with something like "Hold The Line"

As you said, for 10-20 seconds, lets realistically say 10, you take half damage from all attacks, and additionally block all frontal attacks. But during this time, you are rooted, pacified, and silenced... But not stunned... nobody likes being stunned.
Additionally, you are immune to all knockbacks, knock-ups, knock-downs... basically all CC.

Give this a 4 minute cooldown and we are all set.
In a sense this is a 2nd Sentinel, with a slightly longer duration, a somewhat longer recast, and the drawback of being utterly useless for the duration... The epitome of a "Turtle Technique".

Hold the Line would be ridiculously powerful.
*shakes his head*

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Originally Posted by Lucke

If WARs are getting a boost to their mitigation, I only think it's fair that PLD get a boost to AoE tanking capability. Increase enmity gained from flash by 200-300% and introduce a new ability called "Hold the Line". For it's 20 second duration, block all attacks and take half damage from everything. You're rooted in place and you can't attack, so before popping this ability, make sure you have good aggro.

And since we're blurring the line between PLD and WAR, let's just merge the two jobs into a Warridin. Yeah! A job that has excellent AoE threat ability plus the best mitigation in the game. I'd play that.

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Assuming this isn't a troll, Warriors are getting a buff to be on par with Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Vortok

As you've already determined the 2.1 flavor of the month, I thought you might be interested to know in advance that for 2.2 it will be Tapioca. Better reroll now!

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I laughed real hard at that at work.

I feel like im playing baskin robins and that people just can't enjoy their ice cream flavor enough. So they want to switch all the time because somebody else's ice cream looks better. Just pick what you want and enjoy it!

None. The upcoming buff for WARS are so that they can be in pair with you PALA cry babies. *Ohhh look war is getting bbbbuuuuff and I have to share the spotlight*

Paladin: They need to make hallowed ground instant and not so tricky to set off. I often have to spam it just to get it to go off. It should be Instant with no or little animations and we should be able to activate it during any existing animations.

Other than that I find paladin to be pretty solid.

But yeah, I'll be going back to my warrior as well. I've actually been gearing out my warrior instead of my paladin because I was sure they would buff them eventually and I prefer playing warrior over paladin because imo, warrior is a more skill based class and isn't as easy to play.