Red Ring of Death!

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Originally Posted by RynaultB

If he's having to use a 3rd party program to reduce latency then it falls on SE and the routes that are being taken to get to the server. Its within SEs power to find the most efficient routes to be taken to reach their servers.

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SE doesn't control the routing outside of their network. It's your ISP that has a lot of the control over the routes.

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Originally Posted by Goreth

Could you upload a youtube video of the Keeper of Halidom fight? (First boss in Wanderer's Palace)

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I dodge that all the time

on-topic

awesome thread OP

/popcorn :P

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

That's the entire point of this thread. That gif, like mine, is in the overworld. That person has a connection issue.

I really have to wonder how you guys can look at gifs like this, and be like RAWR SEE TOLD YOU, and yet see the gifs at the start of this thread, and for some reason think it's voodoo magic or something.

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Right. If there's no way for you to claim an L2P issue then it's obviously the client side issue. It can never be an SE issue.

That's the point of your thread, we get it. Keep on whiteknighting an obviously broken game, this will make it better for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

SE doesn't control the routing outside of their network. It's your ISP that has a lot of the control over the routes.

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It's totally within their ability to they themselves call up providers and talk to them about nodes making it difficult to reach their servers and get said providers to fix the problem. Yes they don't control the routing but yes they can help do something about it by being proactive themselves.

So to sum up the point of this thread in what I've gathered: Though many people are experiencing this lag it's their problem please work with ISP to fix it. Even if all other game, including those that require good ping, works fine on their connection and they're still getting lag killed it is still their connection problem. Gotcha.

Nah guys the devs were lying when they said there is .3 sec server delay..which is why we can't move out of the red at the last second if we choose. They're all dirty liars!!!

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Originally Posted by Goreth

Could you upload a youtube video of the Keeper of Halidom fight? (First boss in Wanderer's Palace)

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Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVxohARFi6Q

What does this tell you though? I will be the first to admit that I have problems dodging AOEs when I'm actually out of them.

I've studied networks in college, understand network infrastructure is crap in the US. That shouldn't matter for the issue we're talking about. I actually have a job as an Admin (though not network admittedly). I have a lot of experience with online games. I love this game. However, no other online game, not WoW, not LoL, not Dota, not SC, not Tera, not Neverwinter, not Ragnarok Online, not anything I've played (aside from maybe SWTOR) is this unresponsive.


I'm just bummed out I will never be able to do this in FF14.

This thread is an awesome idea.

I mean if normal people complain about the issue, SE won't have to respond. However, if tolls defend SE, they have to say something or else they'll be troll supporters.

Sephirah your name and genius idea - hats off sir.

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Originally Posted by Dire

an obviously broken game

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2 players

same city

No battleping or equivalent

1 with dodging issues, 1 without

Blame SE?

Really?

REALLY?

Prove you aren't the problem, then get back to us.

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Originally Posted by Dire

Right. If there's no way for you to claim an L2P issue then it's obviously the client side issue. It can never be an SE issue.

That's the point of your thread, we get it. Keep on whiteknighting an obviously broken game, this will make it better for everyone.

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You know, as much as you wanna claim white knight...people who say it's SE still to this day fail to explain why it happens to some and not for others - a broken game means it happens to everyone.

A game can't be broken selectively. Like I've said before - I had lag issues but once I got a new PC..bam! All issues went away, which could mean either my old network hardware was just that, very old and not that good and what's in my new rig is way better. It's also been reported some ISPs throttle the traffic that XIV is considered (P2P traffic) which for some european players ISPs there throttle it.

My VPN estimates the location of the servers I connect to when playing. When in the outside world it estimates I'm connected to servers in Toronto, Canada.

When in a dungeon it estimates I'm connected to servers in Tokyo, Japan...

They need to fix how the game communicates with the client to be sure. But they could start with an easy fix and not route American players to their Japanese servers.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

2 players

same city

No battleping or equivalent

1 with dodging issues, 1 without

Blame SE?

Really?

REALLY?

Prove you aren't the problem, then get back to us.

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2 MMOs, same PC, same connection, same player. One game is broken, the other one isn't.

Blame the player and his PC/connectoin? REALLY?

Prove it's not the (broken) game and then get back to us.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

That's the entire point of this thread. That gif, like mine, is in the overworld. That person has a connection issue.

I really have to wonder how you guys can look at gifs like this, and be like RAWR SEE TOLD YOU, and yet see the gifs at the start of this thread, and for some reason think it's voodoo magic or something.

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It's not voodoo magic of course. The premise of your thread however puts the entire blame on a person's connection, a connection that let's the player function perfectly fine in other MMOs and FPS games.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

It's not voodoo magic of course. The premise of your thread however puts the entire blame on a person's connection, a connection that let's the player function perfectly fine in other MMOs and FPS games.

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Just because you can play another game without "any" latency means absolutely nothing. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people complain about lag or latency in a specific game, and say they have no issues with anything else. But there is almost always something wrong. Which is why your ISP is the best thing to call and troubleshoot.

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While the issue does exist for some, in many cases it's a lack of understanding in the mechanic. Whether you do or do not get hit is not exclusively related to the "red circle." The cast bar of the ability is what matters - if you are inside the "red" zone when the cast finishes, you're getting hit whether you stand there or are 40 yalms from the spot. You can see in a number of the Titan videos (some of them have been posted in this thread) that the player is clearly standing in the zone when the cast finishes. Understanding this greatly improved my gameplay.

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If you start casting, aoe appears, and while you move out, surprise it finishes casting, you better instant cast RIGHT THEN, or you eat the aoe. Even if you were out when cast finished. Because your own cast screwed you.

So now casters have to wait until the boss aoes to cast (and for that you have to know the fight, or you waste a ton of GCDs more). Or they eat the aoe.

So in Titan HM, I go in the fight, Eye the tank. Then move until I see landslide anywhere. Move out of it if its on me, and THEN I have a window of opportunity to cast maybe twice...and I have to mentally discipline myself to always wait (I'm used to not wasting GCDs, not 'waiting so I don't die because of aoe positioning bugs').

Normal behavior I'd have: interrupt my cast and move out right off.
Behavior I need to have: not cast at all until the aoe is already there (and me not in it).

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You know, as much as you wanna claim white knight...people who say it's SE still to this day fail to explain why it happens to some and not for others - a broken game means it happens to everyone

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There are videos with very clear proof of this type of AOE desync happening, yet the player does not appear to be lagging in any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGSnnof--LY

In that example, there is clearly no lag as the player is casting spells. One would think that if it were a problem with the player's network that every part of the game would lag including casting spells. As you can see, the player is casting a heal and it registers immediately after the progress bar reaches completion. If it were a lag problem as you and the OP seem to suggest, then one would expect there to be problems with everything else in the game including casted heals.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Prove you aren't the problem, then get back to us.

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Demon Wall's repel is a great example here. I'm tanking and when he uses repel my whole group goes back. Me, the tank, I don't get the knockback affect. I'm standing in the middle like everyone else was. This whole time I'm taking damage using my abilities(hitting and going on CD) I see everyone moving back up. Well I move to the left to avoid the purple gook. But once I move to avoid the stuff.. BAM! I get knocked back off the side of the bridge and not at a slight angle but at practically a 90 degree angle.

Now you might say oh its just your ISP/PC not SEs fault.

Well now comes the second attempt with the same group(all people from the same FC). Similar thing happens again but this time not just me but the healer gets the delayed knockback affect sending us to our deaths. The DPS in the group all said they weren't seeing any DC image above us and we were moving fluidly and then all of a sudden both the tank and healer go flying off the side like Tim guarding the bridge in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

I'm relatively sure there is a bunch of people trying to run this game with a WIFI connections (or just plain bad connection) or even a PC/Laptop that struggles to play this game and are trying to flat out blame SE because of the lag.

Also people saying that SE should contact every ISP (NA/EU) so that they can make sure the connections are routed correctly for "every FFXIV user" are pretty delusional in their request

Cmon - anyways in time we will see how this turns out

- If this was a server global timing issue, then the problem would be universal across all players, zones, and instances. It's not as illustrated by OP.

- If it's a matter of FFXIV is experiencing it, and other games not, that could be a routing issue. Though if people are not experiencing it in the overworld, it's not.

- If it's a matter of certain high-popularity fights experiencing it, and others not (Example, Titan HM vs Titan Story.) It may be a congestion issue.

Number three sounds like a likely candidate, IMO seeming we've buckled the servers since Beta 4 and have needed two upgrades to Duty Finder. If so, it will likely get worse as players dogpile on endgame activities, my money's on Crystal Tower breaking within hours of 2.1 release, while Titan HM suddenly seems to be fixed. Still this mantra of mocking the company who's providing you entertainment while still being around is getting kinda stale. If you're still playing, show a little respect is all.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

I'm relatively sure there is a bunch of people trying to run this game with a WIFI connections (or just plain bad connection) or even a PC/Laptop that struggles to play this game and are trying to flat out blame SE because of the lag.

Also people saying that SE should contact every ISP (NA/EU) so that they can make sure the connections are routed correctly for "every FFXIV user" are pretty delusional in their request

Cmon - anyways in time we will see how this turns out

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Funny enough I'm on wifi with a laptop. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Dire

2 MMOs, same PC, same connection, same player. One game is broken, the other one isn't.

Blame the player and his PC/connectoin? REALLY?

Prove it's not the (broken) game and then get back to us.

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What was your other game, Everquest 1? How can you prove that any game except the same game is even comparable?

Nice try, but 2 copies of the game, geographically close with vastly different experiences an SE issue is not.

Is it bad that I thought the title was about the xbox 360 or a really bad hemorrhoid medication pitch?

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Originally Posted by Antanias

Is it bad that I thought the title was about the xbox 360 or a really bad hemorrhoid medication pitch?

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I originally thought it would be about the xbox..then I remembered this community stated it's impossible to dodge AoEs/Conals and immediately realized what it was likely about.

A friend of mine tells me that one of his FC teammate's ISP enigmatically "jump connects" to several different cities before connecting to the server, which he solved by renting and connecting via a VPN.
Why this jump occurs is beyond me. But even with a VPN, the fact that his connection stabilizes a lot really convinces me that SE's server isn't half as bad as most complains.

Anyhow, I think Sephirah has a point. You can't just blame everything on SE.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Just because you can play another game without "any" latency means absolutely nothing.

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Then can you tell me why on my same PC that I play FFXIV and WoW on when I start a cast, in WoW if I move it stops the second I move. Where in FFXIV it pretty much goes through the whole cast before it interrupts my casting and I'm stuck unable to cast anything else til that has finished?

I play from China. I expect lag just plan and simple. I have about 200-250ms on my WoW server, I have about 200-275ms on my FFXIV server. Yet I have such delay's that get increasingly frustrating when I move even when I anticipate their abilities and I still get hit. Sometimes I don't even see the zone drop down and his abilities goes off. One might put that up as lag but not when I'm using my abilities and his HP is dropping when all of a sudden he does his ability and I take damage from it and never once did I see the red zone pop up or his casting/wind up animation.

Now that doesn't happen all the time only a couple of times but that shows there is a communication issue between server/client that needs to be addressed. I love this game but it is a new game and there still is some kinks that need to be worked out.

To blindly turn away from the issues when you have no problem from it shows your complete ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

That's the entire point of this thread. That gif, like mine, is in the overworld. That person has a connection issue.

I really have to wonder how you guys can look at gifs like this, and be like RAWR SEE TOLD YOU, and yet see the gifs at the start of this thread, and for some reason think it's voodoo magic or something.

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Actually, the "point" is that this doesn't happen in any other MMO out there, to include games with far better graphics. This latency issue is the fault of a poorly made game.

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What was your other game, Everquest 1? How can you prove that any game except the same game is even comparable?

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How about this?

Same PC, same MMO, same connection, same player, same dungeon, same boss move.

Situation 1: I was not casting anything. Plumes/Landslide appears under me. I move out of it. Nothing happens, I do not get hit.
Situation 2: I was casting a spell with a cast time, probably Adloquium on tank or Succor. Plumes/Landslide appears under me. I interrupt my cast by moving. Cast completes anyway because it was nearly there. I'm out of circle by the time boss cast is over. I do get hit, and possibly die.

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Originally Posted by RynaultB

Then can you tell me why on my same PC that I play FFXIV and WoW on when I start a cast, in WoW if I move it stops the second I move. Where in FFXIV it pretty much goes through the whole cast before it interrupts my casting and I'm stuck unable to cast anything else til that has finished?

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Once again, 1 game has ZERO relevance to another. And the delay you are describing there, is the .3 second INTENTIONAL delay, that this thread is not about.

To anyone saying "Tell me why i lag then", nobody here can answer that, you need to troubleshoot your network to get that kind of detailed information, but sure, if you want, I can throw out random solutions, see what sticks to the wall. Contact SE and find out what ports they use to reconfigure your network, or maybe try flushing your dns, or powercycling your modem. There are a million things that could be causing your issues.

Blame those users all you want, the issue won't just disappear.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

How about this?

Same PC, same MMO, same connection, same player, same dungeon, same boss move.

Situation 1: I was not casting anything. Plumes/Landslide appears under me. I move out of it. Nothing happens, I do not get hit.
Situation 2: I was casting a spell with a cast time, probably Adloquium on tank or Succor. Plumes/Landslide appears under me. I interrupt my cast by moving. Cast completes anyway because it was nearly there. I'm out of circle by the time boss cast is over. I do get hit, and possibly die.

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While perception is one thing, I could see attributing this to a lag spike. rule of thumb is if other people in the same group experience the same thing at the same time, yeah that is probably something tied to SE.

I'm not saying SE is perfectly innocent to the networking woes, but they are certainly a scapegoat regardless of guilt.

I'm saying that far too many people are blaming all their networking woes without any idea what they are talking about, meaning the majority are probably wholly unrelated to said shared spikes.

An issue affecting 1 player in the whole party? psh, give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Once again, 1 game has ZERO relevance to another.

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There *IS* relevance, actually. Other game developers seem to make things work, either through client-side detection or whatever dark magics they use. Then all of a sudden, a game that has lazy written all over it comes out with these issues and people want to stand up to defend it. If what I am seeing on my screen doesn't accurately portray ground-truth, then something is wrong. When I lag in other games due to ISP, etc, the whole game lags, not just the freaking AE markers. No casting lag, no lag when attacking mobs, just a lag with the AE marker. This is something that can be fixed through SE, if they were competent.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

What was your other game, Everquest 1? How can you prove that any game except the same game is even comparable?

Nice try, but 2 copies of the game, geographically close with vastly different experiences an SE issue is not.

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I am not going to list every game I play, the list would be far too long. And for the record I don't actually have lag issues. But I have seen tons of videos of people who do. They are able to move and cast without any visible lag whatsoever and yet get tagged by AoE they have clearly moved out of. How do you explain that? Their PC/connection happens to throw them a lag spike every time they have just got clear of a red circle? You don't think that's a bit of a stretch?

Then again, they may just not be zooming out enough, amirite?

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Originally Posted by Antanias

Is it bad that I thought the title was about the xbox 360 or a really bad hemorrhoid medication pitch?

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I thought it was going to be a funny thread. :<

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Once again, 1 game has ZERO relevance to another. And the delay you are describing there, is the .3 second INTENTIONAL delay, that this thread is not about.

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Your OP brings in that "Intentional" delay, just by you stating its easy to avoid the red zones. Because of this "Intentional" delay some may or may not be able to get out of the red zones. If they got rid of that delay they "intentionally" put in I bet the majority of peoples problems would go away.

Also by making the checks happen client side than server side.

The seemingly randomness I have these delays makes me question this is. Something I don't have when I play other games, which makes it valid for someone like me to form a different opinion from yours and also compare one game to another of the same genre.

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Originally Posted by Moktor

There *IS* relevance, actually. Other game developers seem to make things work, either through client-side detection or whatever dark magics they use. Then all of a sudden, a game that has lazy written all over it comes out with these issues and people want to stand up to defend it. If what I am seeing on my screen doesn't accurately portray ground-truth, then something is wrong. When I lag in other games due to ISP, etc, the whole game lags, not just the freaking AE markers. No casting lag, no lag when attacking mobs, just a lag with the AE marker. This is something that can be fixed through SE, if they were competent.

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Then why, pray tell, is this not happening to everyone?

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Originally Posted by RynaultB

This OP, I've played countless other games online, MMOs what have you. But this is the only game where not just latency but the communication between server and client are terrible. I can't tell you how many times I've been out or the "Red Ring of Death" and I still get hit some times LONG before the ability even went off.

Never had this kind of problem playing other MMOs, especially the F2P ones.

I play from China, lag is to be expected playing on NA servers. But when I play WoW the game runs smooth. And before anyone "White Knights" it up about "Connections" (they had these same problems back in 1.0, they should be fixed by now). "Its a new MMO, gotta give it time". Its 2013 not 2000. Technology is better, thus they should have better server hardware to be played on.

And their server coding is terrible with the built in server delay. I could care less if they put a Chocobo in the CSS on their lodestone website. I see they spent more time doing that then making the code with commuting between servers and client.

P.S. As well as the 1000 character max on a single post... terrible.

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The major difference being that Blizzard actually (after quite a few years of ignoring the issue) altered the mechanics in WoW to cater to 200+ms latency. If SE keeps to the same timeframe expect the issue to be around for at least another 7 years.

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Originally Posted by Dire

I am not going to list every game I play, the list would be far too long. And for the record I don't actually have lag issues. But I have seen tons of videos of people who do. They are able to move and cast without any visible lag whatsoever and yet get tagged by AoE they have clearly moved out of. How do you explain that? Their PC/connection happens to throw them a lag spike every time they have just got clear of a red circle? You don't think that's a bit of a stretch?

Then again, they may just not be zooming out enough, amirite?

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Snarky comment about the live letter aside, people need to check their house before blaming SE.

How can I explain that? The same way I explained my own past issues.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I had serious issues with the red rings not properly representing my escape from danger.

2 weeks ago.

Then I removed my router from the equation, connected my modem straight to my PC.

A world of difference. Ease of dodging is significantly, even comically easier now.

TLDR: My router was on the verge of 'dying', and causing added latency. I removed it, latency disappeared.

Check your PC.
Check your Home Network.
Check your ISP.
Check with SE.

In that order. If you choose to skip a step, nobody will take you seriously.

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Visible lag is a misnomer. If your lag is SO bad that you can only sprint a foot per second in the game, like I did in game day 1 early access, the game is smart enough to tell your card to hide the lag in other ways. In the end people would just seem to be running faster than you, on screen.

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An issue affecting 1 player in the whole party? psh, give me a break.

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It affects people who started to cast when aoe appeared. People with instant abilities have enough time to go out and use another. People with casts generally don't. Healers even less so because they don't always target boss (and most instants are dots, that don't work on the tank now).

It won't affect the Monk and the Warrior. Why? No cast time.

OP is correct. When people don't understand something, they blame anything but themselves. And in this case, their decision of ISP is an extension of "themselves".

If you're being hit when you are clearly outside the AoE before the cast timer finishes, then that is most definitely your ISP. Unfortunately, many times you can't really do much to improve your ISP's connections because the routing is mostly on their end. For those with issues like this, I highly suggest getting a tunneling service to force a more direct route. They are fairly cheap at only a few dollars a month.

My Australian friend was having this issue, because as we know Australia is infamous for horridly bad ISPs and internet connections in general. He got the tunneling service and now avoids AoEs no problem. All he needed to do was improve his connection.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Snarky comment about the live letter aside, people need to check their house before blaming SE.

How can I explain that? The same way I explained my own past issues.

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Oh right, we're back to 'if it's not an L2P issue it has to be the player's PC/connection issue because it can't possibly be an SE issue'. We're done here; you might find talking in circles entertaining but I'd rather go watch paint dry to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Then why, pray tell, is this not happening to everyone?

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And here is why you continue to show your blatant and complete ignorance to the fact. "Just because I don't have it or my friends or everyone in my circle doesn't have it, it doesn't exist."

We're not debating the nature of god or if he exists.

We're talking about the way the game runs. Yes not everyone is going to have problems. If only a few people have a problem i just look at it as bad ISP or whatnot. But when everyday people are coming to the forums to complain about this very issue, then more people than you think, are having this problem and *IT IS AN ISSUE* and should be addressed and fixed.

There are tons of variables as to why some have and some don't, but to just turn blindly away is not a good response.