The Black Mage Rotations

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Originally Posted by Umero

I thought Fire spells deal 100% Damage under UI3 or no AF/UI. And 130% Damage under AF3.
Can someone confirm that they only deal 70% Damage under UI3?

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I assume that since PessimiStick is looking at parsing logs that it's true.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

Since we're posting rotations here's mine..

Single Target:
Thunder III (ticks longer for more damage) ---> Fire III ---> Fire (recast until 300mp) ---> Swiftcast ---> Flare ---> Convert ---> Fire ---> Blizzard III ---> Thunder III ---> Fire III ---> Fire (until 100mp) ---> Blizzard III and then repeat from beginning.

I see no point in casting Blizzard III before Fire III because by the time this rotation ends, 90% of the time I have the Fire III proc and cast it for nothing after going from Blizzard III ---> Thunder III ---> Fire III (free immediate cast). Not to mention Fire III is a 1.5 second cast coming from Blizzard III so its more efficient IMO.

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Good post, KyteStones! A couple things I would point out:

1) Thunder III, while doing more damage because it ticks longer, also takes 0.5s longer to cast, costs more mana, and what I've found is that it's clunky in the rotation for this reason. The 2.5s cast of Thunder II fits nicely so that when you are casting your Fire III before starting Fire I spam, you just got your last tick of mana so you're back to full. What you'll notice about using Thunder III instead is that, assuming you're fluidly going through your rotation, when you cast your Fire III, you will get your last tick of mana at the very start of this cast and, because of this, when Fire III actually casts, it will actually charge you roughly 100 mana instead of being free. This is very problematic because when you get down to the bottom of the rotation, after your Fire I spam, your last Fire I will likely have to be cast when you are BELOW 1000 mana meaning that you will not be able to get your Thunder cast off on-time after Blizzard III (you'll have to wait a half to full second for a tick of mana.

2) The reason I open with Blizzard III ==> Thunder II is two-fold: one, it gives the tank a bit more time to get sufficient aggro but still allows me to do some damage and, two, if you cast Blizzard III first then your Thunder II and Fire III are both free since you'll get a tick of mana as you cast Fire III putting you back to full.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

So I guess I have a basic BLM mechanics question: in terms of mana recovery, is the 2x B2 necessary to guarantee a reliable MP tick sufficient to begin casting the F3? Because it seems to be that if Flare blows all your mana, it doesn't matter how much you re-enter Astral with, and could get by with 1 B2 cast as long as you are able to cast F3.

Or is that really to wait for the Transpose cooldown?

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Thanks for the question, Easymodex.

It's actually not about the mana tick. If that were the case then we would only need to cast one Blizzard II to have enough mana to cast a Fire III and then into a Flare. The purpose of 2x Blizzard II is because that will get us to Umbral Ice III (since Transpose will give us one stack to start with) which means that you can cast BOTH Fire III and Flare at 1/2 cast time.

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Originally Posted by Arale

Question, why do people cast blizzard III then thunder II then fire III? Does it really result in more DPS then T2 > F3 or F1 spam to start?

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As mentioned a couple posts above, I open with Blizzard III ==> Thunder II to give the tank more threat-building time while still allowing me to do damage. More importantly, however, if I open with Blizzard III that means the subsequent Thunder II and Fire III both cast for free since you'll get a huge tick of mana during your Fire III cast from Umbral Ice III.

The practical AOE rotation is fire3>fire222>flare>transpose>bliz22>repeat. However, if you got a BRD popping manasong for whatever reason, try something a little simpler - fire3>flare>ice3 repeat. Timed correctly (including syncing up with eorzea clock on your bliz3 to get instant umbral tick), you can pop a flare every 7th second. I should point out that, regardless of whos tanking, doing this without quelling up will net all the agro in AK/WP. Rotation is especially useful doing BRD/BLM/PLD WP run for phils, since the PLD is gonna be needing manasong for flash spamming anyways.

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Originally Posted by Youmu

The practical AOE rotation is fire3>fire222>flare>transpose>bliz22>repeat. However, if you got a BRD popping manasong for whatever reason, try something a little simpler - fire3>flare>ice3 repeat. Timed correctly (including syncing up with eorzea clock on your bliz3 to get instant umbral tick), you can pop a flare every 7th second. I should point out that, regardless of whos tanking, doing this without quelling up will net all the agro in AK/WP. Rotation is especially useful doing BRD/BLM/PLD WP run for phils, since the PLD is gonna be needing manasong for flash spamming anyways.

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If you give the AoE rotation I've outlined a shot and get the timing of it down, I think you'll find that it's both practical and a net DPS gain over the one you've mentioned.

Yours is better DPS. The other is more practical for threat management (steady and consistent damage, versus heavy spikes of burst damage). They both do very nearly the same damage, but ask your tank how much he enjoys dealing with your 2k crits over and over anytime quellings not up.

Maximize your Damage with FIRE III FIRE III FIRE III FLARE TRANSPOSE wait 10sec FIRE III FIRE III FIRE III FLARE TRANSPOSE repeat

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Originally Posted by Youmu

Yours is better DPS. The other is more practical for threat management (steady and consistent damage, versus heavy spikes of burst damage). They both do very nearly the same damage, but ask your tank how much he enjoys dealing with your 2k crits over and over anytime quellings not up.

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It's really only the first Flare that would be problematic. After that, the damage is more or less the same. The difference is like 10 potency per GCD at max, so unless you're completely riding your tank's ass with the "worse" rotation, you won't pull with either one.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

It's really only the first Flare that would be problematic. After that, the damage is more or less the same. The difference is like 10 potency per GCD at max, so unless you're completely riding your tank's ass with the "worse" rotation, you won't pull with either one.

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Its usually a combination of the first two flares that can make it a pain to tank, since you get RNG crits on the same 3 mobs and pull huge hate. You'd have to hold off longer to let the tank build threat, or risk making mobs impossible to tank, which is a net DPS loss in practical situations. You should also consider your chances of successfully completing a flare cast while getting poked by mobs, in comparison to fire2.

I think you're underestimating the threat we can generate a bit.

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Originally Posted by Youmu

Its usually a combination of the first two flares that can make it a pain to tank, since you get RNG crits on the same 3 mobs and pull huge hate. You'd have to hold off longer to let the tank build threat, or risk making mobs impossible to tank, which is a net DPS loss in practical situations. You should also consider your chances of successfully completing a flare cast while getting poked by mobs, in comparison to fire2.

I think you're underestimating the threat we can generate a bit.

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Flare is massive threat! And, by massive, I mean @#^@ing massive. If you run in there and double Flare right off the bat without popping Quelling Strikes or giving the tank a head start, you're going to grab a lot of attention. Believe. I've done it on Turn 4, phase 4 :)

As a professional Black Mage, which means it's really what I focus on playing the most in this game, I'm going to toss in my coins into the conversation. I'd like to bring up what I said before prior in this topic, mainly that "Flare & Convert should never be used together". I'd like to expand upon this now and express the reasons why this is and when Convert does not better the BLM's DPS when combined with Flare.

Simply put, Black Mage is a creature of situations. You'll normally come upon two major situations that demand two very different Rotations:

The DPS Rotation (Single Target) and the AoE Rotation (Targets of 5+).

Critical Note: Let's look at Wanderer's Palace and The Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 4, these are perhaps the very best examples of a Black Mage which has to juggle these two rotations in under 10 minutes.

At present, these two instances are perhaps hands down the most desired use of a Black Mage currently in Final Fantasy XIV beyond effective farming. Within these Instances, time is very much of the essence and a skilled Black Mage must be able to maximize their damage out-put properly and distribute it evenly over a course of 7 minute blocks.

If you approach the mindset of "I'm going to blow every cool-down I have at the first chance I get" then you're going to let the party down and not perform very effectively throughout the course of the encounter.

Black Mages are turrets with volatile but very potent ammo that takes a long time to reload. Waste it too fast and you're going to lose damage.


Why Flare & Convert Never Mix

Let's get to the real meat of the argument here. Flare & Convert are a very tempting combination, it just looks good but in practice only hurts you in the bigger picture. A Black Mage is a long-term DPSer, measuring what they perform in a course of two minutes is a waste of time -- in order to properly measure a Black Mage's output you need to look at them in a 7 to 10 minute prospective.

Long boss battles and long encounters normally last about 7 to 10 minutes, so a Black Mage should plan their moves carefully -- much like chess. With this in mind, Convert is normally reserved for a Single-Target DPS Rotation, not AoE.

A Black Mage has a lot of options to spring back from Flare: Ethers, Mage Ballad, and Transpose.

Transpose isn't the most ideal, but it still is viable and it works -- yet requires the most wait time and isn't always recommend, yet it still remains effective for one key reason: Enmity.

A properly executed AoE Rotation, which is normally:

Part 1: Fire III - Fire II - Fire II - Fire II - (Swiftcast) Flare

Critical Note: This AoE Rotation has a tendency to generate an extreme amount of Enmity. To the point where a well geared BLM is always on the edge of aggression. By using Raging Strikes without Quelling Strikes, you are most certainly going to rip all hate off of even the best of tanks. Yet a good Black Mage will seldom use Raging Strikes in combination with an AoE Rotation.

Using Transpose after such a powerful Rotation gives the Black Mage time to cool their guns as it were, allowing the team to generate more Enmity before the Black Mage persists with the Second Wave of the AoE Rotation.

Part 2: Blizzard III - Fire II - Fire II - Fire II - Fire II - Flare - Transpose

This part of the rotation has a slowly build up, allowing the Black Mage to remain stable in their Enmity. Of course you can apply tricks before and during this, such as various Ethers & Flare at your own desire. This is based on how much you want to consume them for the purpose of speed, which in Coil is quite handy.


Convert Extends Raging Strikes

Within a Single-Target DPS Rotation, Convert is best reserved to give Raging Strikes a much more meaningful life-span. In Coil Turn 4, as a Black Mage you will have to switch from AoE Rotation into a Single-Target DPS Rotation at the drop of a hat. If you needlessly wasted Raging Strikes and/or Convert on a previous AoE Rotation, you now will not be able to DPS down Dreadnaughts fast enough.

To say "Coil Turn 4 is the one exception to the rule" is a moot argument, as it is the best example to show how a specific class should be played in other places. The only time I would consider using Raging Strikes & Quelling Strikes outside of a DPS Rotation is Wanderer's Palace, but that is more of a farm rather than a challenging encounter which puts a Black Mage to the test with a DPS Check.

The whole purpose of a Single-Target DPS Rotation is to burst down the target as vast as possible. Typically you're juggling a few things in this mode: Buff Durations, Instant procs, and Lightning DoT Ticks.

When opening up your DPS Rotation, popping Raging Strikes followed by Quelling Strikes is the norm. After a few casts you'll often pop Convert to extend your Mana supply to get more direct damage casts while Raging Strikes is active. With luck and instant procs, you can actually stretch out a Single-Target DPS Rotation for up to 60 seconds without ever falling back into Blizzard III & Umbral Ice III to regain your mana pool -- that is the ideal you should always strive for.

Critical Note: In my Black Mage career, I've only once pulled off a 60 Second DPS Rotation with Raging Strikes & Quelling Strikes active for a portion of the Rotation, with several Fire III and Thunder III instant procs to pad out the MP bar with Convert to give it some extra life for good measure.

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Originally Posted by Youmu

Its usually a combination of the first two flares that can make it a pain to tank, since you get RNG crits on the same 3 mobs and pull huge hate. You'd have to hold off longer to let the tank build threat, or risk making mobs impossible to tank, which is a net DPS loss in practical situations. You should also consider your chances of successfully completing a flare cast while getting poked by mobs, in comparison to fire2.

I think you're underestimating the threat we can generate a bit.

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You have QS up any time you have Convert, and it's very rare that I pull aggro with the first flare. Hardcast F3 into hardcast Flare gives the tank ~4-5 GCDs to spam flash before the first Flare lands. It takes another 4 GCDs minimum to get your second Flare out. 8-9 Flashes should win over 2 Flares in almost all cases.

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Originally Posted by Mecan

With luck and instant procs, you can actually stretch out a Single-Target DPS Rotation for up to 60 seconds without ever falling back into Blizzard III & Umbral Ice III to regain your mana pool -- that is the ideal you should always strive for.

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You posted a lot, but most of it was useless fluff. We've already shown that the AE rotation you propose is almost surely sub-optimal, and this tidbit above is utter nonsense. Even if we count a hardcast B3 and T2 to start your rotation, you'd need ~22 casts to make it 60 seconds. Given that you have the mana for ~7 fires if you use convert, it's essentially mathematically impossible to last 60 seconds. You would need TCloud to proc on almost every tick of Thunder so that you could Fire --> TCloud --> Firestarter, repeat, for all 7 fire casts, and then get another TC proc at the end to possibly hit 60 seconds. The math on that is astronomically unlikely. As in, if you did it, you should go buy a powerball ticket *right now*, because you're the luckiest person ever.

Edit: It's ~1 in 610 that you'll get 7 Firestarters in a row, and getting 8 TCloud procs out of 19 ticks is ~1 in 600,000, meaning both is somewhere on the order of 1 in 360M. (And that doesn't take into account the fact that you need the TC procs to be *evenly* distributed, which actually makes the true odds much worse.)

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

You posted a lot, but most of it was useless fluff.

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I'm unsure what you're referring too overall. I even put in red that "With luck..." but it's an idea to strive for. Yet that is a Single-Target DPS Rotation, which has nothing to do with AoE Rotation. Everything I wrote was not useless fluff, I highly recommend you take time to read through it. Basically the order of the DPS Rotation was quite fortunate, but by using Convert during the DPS Rotation it helped to increase the odds of such a rare, but long DPS Rotation. This was not impossible, just really damn lucky.

Don't forget there is some considerable downtime between each Instant Cast, despite it being instant you still have to wait a full cooldown timer. This is pretty much my standard DPS Rotation:

(Swiftcast) Thunder III - Fire III - Raging Strikes - Quelling Strikes - Fire I - Fire I - Convert - Fire I - Fire I - Fire I - Fire I - Blizzard III - Thunder II - Fire III

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Originally Posted by Mecan

Don't forget there is some considerable downtime between each Instant Cast, despite it being instant you still have to wait a full cooldown timer.

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There's exactly 1 GCD, hence the reason it's called the GCD.

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This is pretty much my standard DPS Rotation:

(Swiftcast) Thunder III - Fire III - Raging Strikes - Quelling Strikes - Fire I - Fire I - Convert - Fire I - Fire I - Fire I - Fire I - Blizzard III - Thunder II - Fire III

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So you're trying to maximize the time you're casting damaging ST spells under RS, yet you're opening without B3? Should fix that. You're starting at a mana deficit and probably costing yourself at least 1 Fire cast.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

There's exactly 1 GCD, hence the reason it's called the GCD.

So you're trying to maximize the time you're casting damaging ST spells under RS, yet you're opening without B3? Should fix that. You're starting at a mana deficit and probably costing yourself at least 1 Fire cast.

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Typically I'm under the effect of Umbral Ice III when opening my DPS Rotation so I always begin with maximum mana. The Swiftcast Thunder 3 is to add 3 seconds to the Thunder Tick (1 whole tick) because my DPS Rotations are long and drawn out and I don't always have the luck of proccing an Instant Thunder III. Sad to say I prioritize Raging Strikes while under DPS Rotation instead of the Thunder Tick -- normally it would be the other way around. You're nitpicking extensively without knowing where I actually place my main DPS Rotation during a battle and for no good reason for that matter.

Edit: If you didn't catch what I mean, by the time I cast my 1st Fire, the Mana Bar is full. So the Full force of a DPS Rotation is primed and ready for several aggressive casts.

Someone once recommended me to always use Fire III twice rather then Fire III > Fire I from UI3 phase (beginning rotation or onward) this results in less fires, but does get me through each phase a bit faster. I want to know what others think about this or if Fire I is still the way to go. :)

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Originally Posted by Arale

Someone once recommended me to always use Fire III twice rather then Fire III > Fire I from UI3 phase (beginning rotation or onward) this results in less fires, but does get me through each phase a bit faster. I want to know what others think about this or if Fire I is still the way to go. :)

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F3 has no proc, and the mana cost increase is higher than the potency increase. F3 is 47% more potent, but 67% more expensive, and it can't proc a free version of itself. It's going to be worse in 99.9% of cases (edge cases where mob dies before OOM and your F1 didn't proc, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Mecan

Typically I'm under the effect of Umbral Ice III when opening my DPS Rotation so I always begin with maximum mana.

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You're under the effect of UI3 without casting B3? No. This is clearly the start of the fight since you have RS and QS off cooldown at the same time. (and it's generally not worth casting QS again if it comes off CD later, unless you outgear the tank by a lot)

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The Swiftcast Thunder 3 is to add 3 seconds to the Thunder Tick (1 whole tick) because my DPS Rotations are long and drawn out and I don't always have the luck of proccing an Instant Thunder III.

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Or because there's not really anything else to use it on, of course. Your only real options are the opening B3 or the T3, and hardcasting the B3 is a better choice for threat reasons. Without Swiftcast or convert you should be using T2.

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Edit: If you didn't catch what I mean, by the time I cast my 1st Fire, the Mana Bar is full. So the Full force of a DPS Rotation is primed and ready for several aggressive casts.

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Except that if you didn't start with B3, it's not, which was my point.

Pessimistick beat me to the punch! Mecan, that's a lengthy post but I can't really get behind much of anything you said. You, yourself, said that BLMs are "creatures of situation" (whatever that means). So, with that said, isn't it almost always the case that AoE situations demand burst damage? Take Turn 4, phase 4 for example. You have exactly 1 minute to kill two Rooks and four spiders before a Dreadnaught, Knight and Soldier drop on your face. Further, take any dungeon run as an example. Do you think any AoE pull will last long enough to go through some lengthy AoE rotation? No. Use Convert. Do the burst. Blow 'em up. End the fight.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

You're under the effect of UI3 without casting B3? No. This is clearly the start of the fight since you have RS and QS off cooldown at the same time. (and it's generally not worth casting QS again if it comes off CD later, unless you outgear the tank by a lot)

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I hating doing Quote Points for single phrases. Like I said, you're nit-picking for nit-picking sake, and for no good reason. But let's play your game a little longer...

I'm going to use The Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 4 as my main source here, this is where I measure a lot of how a Black Mage balances their abilities. Just because I have Raging Strikes and Quelling strikes off cooldown doesn't mean "it's the start of the battle", actually the first Dreadnaught drops in approximately two minutes into the battle. As a Black Mage, I reserve my cooldowns such as Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, and Convert for this moment. This is because the Dreadnaught absolutely must die in under 60 seconds. If it doesn't, it gets fully healed and buffed, resulting in a failure.

At this point I'm exiting combat on schedule with another foe, my Umbral Ice III is up by this time rebuilding my Mana and prepping me for the Dreadnaught phase and my main DPS Rotation -- or my "Big Guns" as it were. This is DPS Check situation, every time I encounter one of these all of my cooldowns are reserved. There are several different forms of DPS Checks in Turn 4, two of which are Dreadnaughts that must die in under 60 seconds: here is the second one. I reserve Raging Strikes & Convert for both of those situations.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

Pessimistick beat me to the punch! Mecan, that's a lengthy post but I can't really get behind much of anything you said. You, yourself, said that BLMs are "creatures of situation" (whatever that means). So, with that said, isn't it almost always the case that AoE situations demand burst damage? Take Turn 4, phase 4 for example. You have exactly 1 minute to kill two Rooks and four spiders before a Dreadnaught, Knight and Soldier drop on your face. Further, take any dungeon run as an example. Do you think any AoE pull will last long enough to go through some lengthy AoE rotation? No. Use Convert. Do the burst. Blow 'em up. End the fight.

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The Dreadnaughts are more important to kill than the Rooks so convert is reserved for the Dreadnaughts. My team has no issue DPSing the Rooks down and we use Mage Ballad during this so I often swiftly spam multiple Flares without much problem or Convert. There are many different ways to have effective AoE Rotations and often you can work as a team to execute them.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

Good post, KyteStones! A couple things I would point out:

1) Thunder III, while doing more damage because it ticks longer, also takes 0.5s longer to cast, costs more mana, and what I've found is that it's clunky in the rotation for this reason. The 2.5s cast of Thunder II fits nicely so that when you are casting your Fire III before starting Fire I spam, you just got your last tick of mana so you're back to full. What you'll notice about using Thunder III instead is that, assuming you're fluidly going through your rotation, when you cast your Fire III, you will get your last tick of mana at the very start of this cast and, because of this, when Fire III actually casts, it will actually charge you roughly 100 mana instead of being free. This is very problematic because when you get down to the bottom of the rotation, after your Fire I spam, your last Fire I will likely have to be cast when you are BELOW 1000 mana meaning that you will not be able to get your Thunder cast off on-time after Blizzard III (you'll have to wait a half to full second for a tick of mana.

2) The reason I open with Blizzard III ==> Thunder II is two-fold: one, it gives the tank a bit more time to get sufficient aggro but still allows me to do some damage and, two, if you cast Blizzard III first then your Thunder II and Fire III are both free since you'll get a tick of mana as you cast Fire III putting you back to full.

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i see where you're coming from, but taking advantage to the server delay on the mana recharge, after the first initial rotation, you should be at full mana pretty much 99% of the time at the restart of the rotation. Keep in mind that while under AF III, Blizzard only costs 75MP. If spamming the Fire, then immediately spamming Blizzard III key you have, about .7 seconds before the spell goes off you're at a 80% recharge, which my the end of Thunder III, while you're in your 1.5 sec fire III cast, UI will have topped you off causing your Fire III to cost nothing. In reference to your statement about not being able to cast off on time to get the mana tick, I have never had this issue. After the first rotation, I am always topped off at the beginning of the next rotation set unless I manage to not pay attention and dispell too much mana screwing the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Mecan

The Dreadnaughts are more important to kill than the Rooks so convert is reserved for the Dreadnaughts. My team has no issue DPSing the Rooks down and we use Mage Ballad during this so I often swiftly spam multiple Flares without much problem or Convert. There are many different ways to have effective AoE Rotations and often you can work as a team to execute them.

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Mage's Ballad should have zero effect on your AE rotation btw. F3 --> Flare --> Transpose --> B2 x2 repeat.

From what I can gather of this thread KyteStones is that Synovius and PessimiStick just like to talk a lot, yet don't exactly offer any good advice or seem to really understand the finer things of Black Mages. Quite sad to see this thread be more like a pissing contest of 'whose the better Black Mage'. There really hasn't been any constructive discussion, especially when I provide a very clearly presented post and both of them just breeze over it calling it "fluff" just because it goes against their current thinking. You cannot argue with such people because they already think they know it all. You cannot teach someone who thinks they know it all.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

Mage's Ballad should have zero effect on your AE rotation btw.

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And this sums up you fail as a Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Mecan

And this sums up you fail as a Black Mage.

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Go back to page 4 where I did the math. F3 --> Flare --> B3 repeat is inferior for AE DPS to the rotation I just posted.

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Originally Posted by Mecan

From what I can gather of this thread KyteStones is that Synovius and PessimiStick just like to talk a lot, yet don't exactly offer any good advice or seem to really understand the finer things of Black Mages. Quite sad to see this thread be more like a pissing contest of 'whose the better Black Mage'. There really hasn't been any constructive discussion, especially when I provide a very clearly presented post and both of them just breeze over it calling it "fluff" just because it goes against their current thinking. You cannot argue with such people because they already think they know it all. You cannot teach someone who thinks they know it all.

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Want to change people's minds? Post math that proves your case. I did, you didn't.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

Go back to page 2 where I did the math. F3 --> Flare --> B3 repeat is inferior for AE DPS to the rotation I just posted.

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I've done a lot more math than you my friend. I never stated that I did a F3 - > Flare -> B3 repeat. You're assuming way too much. Again, nitpicking for no good reason. You're basically having arguments with no one, responding to comments that were not written. You just assume I do something one way and respond to it.

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Originally Posted by Mecan

I've done a lot more math than you my friend. I never stated that I did a F3 - > Flare -> B3 repeat. You're assuming way too much. Again, nitpicking for no good reason. You're basically having arguments with no one, responding to comments that were not written. You just assume I do something one way and respond to it.

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What magical rotation are you using then where Ballad matters? Feel free to enlighten us. Now's your chance!

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

What magical rotation are you using then where Ballad matters? Feel free to enlighten us. Now's your chance!

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Depends on the quality of the Rotation you're looking for, the situation in which it is use, and the encounter which follows that situation. Do you want Food added into the Equation? Do you want Pots/Elixers added onto of that? There are quite a few ways to get the results you want and often you will work with your team to properly execute them on the target. A very potent AoE Rotation is not the sole responsibility of the Black Mage. Normally in a high-pace battle where AoE Rotations are use, you are working under a time limit and cooperating with other people to make it happen. My Coil Team has 2 Bards, so utilize Mages Ballad and Foe Requiem at the same time to increase the potency of such Rotations along with Food, Elixers, and Intelligence Potions.

More fluff. Tell me what rotation you're using that requires ballad. Until that time I'm just going to continue assuming you're full of it.

I'm just happy to see there are many team work strategies that works for us ^^.

Just a quick question anyone uses Thunder 3 to control their threat? In my coil group I'm more geared than my tanks and Thunder 3 & QS works like magic in keeping my threat in check :).

In Turn 4 for example, at the first Solider & Knight I use the following rotation:

Target Solider 1 (MT) > Bliz 3 > Thunder 3 > Switch to Solider 2 (OT) > Thunder 3 > Switch back to Solider 1 > QS > Fire 3 > normal fire rotation.

This rotation solved all my threat problems with out effecting my dps at all. Still highest DD in my coil group and no threat issues.

Note: wither you use thunder II or III, doting both soldiers gives you a better chance of getting Thundercloud procs :).

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

F3 has no proc, and the mana cost increase is higher than the potency increase. F3 is 47% more potent, but 67% more expensive, and it can't proc a free version of itself. It's going to be worse in 99.9% of cases (edge cases where mob dies before OOM and your F1 didn't proc, etc.).

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Isn't the cost of F3 reduced in UI3 stance? The F3x2 approach seems similar to the F3-Flare double-dipping abuse, except for single target.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Isn't the cost of F3 reduced in UI3 stance? The F3x2 approach seems similar to the F3-Flare double-dipping abuse, except for single target.

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99% sure it doesn't work like that. Cast time is determined at cast (obviously), but damage and mana cost are evaluated at completion. It's why your double dipped flare does full damage, etc. You get the cast speed bonus from UI3, but the damage and mana cost from AF3, since it is applied before your second cast comes out.

Edit: Looked at my character's mana pool and did some napkin math. I'm as positive as I can be without actually testing it right now.

Nifty. I wonder if the mana cost inefficiency of F3 is still worth it for the sheer cast time reduction from the double dip though, over a full cycle.

Hasted F3 and F1 both cost 1 GCD, so it's essentially just a Cost/Benefit thing.

F1 is 638 mana for 270 potency, F3 is 1064 for 396
0.423 vs. 0.372 Potency/Mana, and that excludes the F1's 40% chance for Firestarter.

Edit: It *may* be possible that there are situations where F3 could be superior, like when you had to pay for your initial F3, and you don't have 251 Pie. There are times where I *just* miss my cutoff of 1674 mana, in which case I could have double dipped the F3 and still had the same number of casts. In that case, you'd have to evaluate F3's damage against the expected damage of F1+FS, which is 428, but also costs and extra GCD, so there's a lot more math needed that I don't have time to do right now, hah. And even then, I'm not sure you can *recognize* that you had to pay for the first one in time to change to a double dipped F3 anyway.

I mean it accelerates the whole cycle too.

1a. F3 - F1 - [F1x4 + F3 x2] - B3 - T2 /repeat 100% of the time

2a. F3 - F3 - [F1x3 + F3 x1] - B3 - T2 /repeat 80% of the time
2b. F3 - F3 - [F1x3 + F3 x2] - B3 - T2 /repeat 20% of the time


So that would be ...

220*.7 + 150*1.8 + [150*1.8*4 + 220*1.8*2] + 220*.7 + 250 = 2700

220*.7 + 220*1.8 + [150*1.8*3 + 220*1.8*1] + 220*.7 + 250 = 2160
220*.7 + 220*1.8 + [150*1.8*3 + 220*1.8*2] + 220*.7 + 250 = 2556

For time [gcds]:

1 - 1 - [6] - 1 - 1.2 = 10.2

1 - 1 - [4] - 1 - 1.2 = 8.2
1 - 1 - [5] - 1 - 1.2 = 9.2

Scenario 1: 2700 / 10.2 = 264.7 p/gcd.

Scenarios 2: [.8*2160 + .2*2556] / [.8*8.2 + .2*9.2] = 266.6 p/gcd.


I'm not entirely sure that I have the modifiers (cast times and stance buff values) accurate, though.

Edited based on corrections.

Edit: Holds true at a smaller gap with 1 less Fire1 cast.

First change is that you're casting too many F1s in any case. For someone with 251 PIE, you get 5 Fire 1s per cycle. With < 251 PIE, you get 4 or 5 Fire Is, and I'm not sure on the frequency of each. It depends on when your mana ticks during the initial F3. GCDs are all 1 except for the hardcast thunder refresh and the initial cast to start your rotation (if you don't swiftcast it). The only thing this changes in your numbers is the 1.4 you have for B3 should be 1 instead.

Edit: I feel like you really need some probability modelling to really answer the question. There are multiple outcomes for your fire casts in a given cycle.
0 FS procs
1 FS proc - used in AF3
1 FS proc - on last fire, used with AF1 via transpose
2 FS procs - after second fire, after 4th fire, or after 3rd and 5th
2 FS procs - one in AF3, one in AF1 via transpose
3 FS procs - after second fire, after 4th fire, in AF1 after transpose

Double dipping F3 to start means that any time you would have been able to FS after the 4th cast above, you're forced to use that with AF1 on your restart. Not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.


For your edit with cast #/time corrections, the potency for 2b is incorrect because you won't ever get 2 AF3 Fire 3s in the same cycle. If you proc twice, the second one will always be an AF1 version on the restart, since you're already casting B3 when the second FS would proc.