Can we limit people who didnt reach end game from posting feedback about end game?

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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im on coil 5
and bard op.

I'm all for making bard more difficult to maximize dps.. but nerfing it when it's not ahead is pretty silly. Also I think adding decent silence options to other jobs wouldn't be a bad idea.

Didn't they already say they are increasing melee dmg as well as plan
to reduce the impact of disconnects.

Pretty soon blm is getting nerfed, because it's too simple and too strong ST, AE, has infinite MP, can sprint whenever, is ranged, it's only weakness is having cast times.

I'm all for small tweaks here and there, but I hate when nerfs and buffs happen simultaneously and result in things being more imbalanced than they were.

I don't think anyone's mentioned that BRD get lower damage weapons to counter the fact they can shoot while moving. BRD also don't get big spike damage like other DD's. BRD also don't get a DPS Limit Break like other jobs. You maximise BRD DPS by keeping your DOT's up and working through your attack buffs. There's a fair amount involved in the rotation and when things get hectic it's not just a simple matter of running around and shooting, you need to be paying attention just like any other job. You also can't just be a silence bot in coil, you need to be actively DPS'ing as hard as you can between CD's.

It's not OP, it's just pretty much required for coil with the silence rotation. For some reason SE chose to give Coil mobs abilities that can be silenced on a 2 BRD rotation. It doesn't make the job overpowered though...

What people don't realize is that bard can stand far away and do max damage while moving while melee classes have to POSITION THEM SELVES to maximize their damage that's a big difference meaning you must go to the sides and behind the boss to use certain skills to do combos i swear if people can't even know the difference between bard and melee classes should just....i don't know...educate themselves before posting on subjects they have no understanding about.....

Seems like OP's a bit mad that SE made a vague statement that could be construed to mean they are slightly nerfing BRD.

So apparently SE was following the ignorant masses when it decided to nerf BRD, but its decision to buff WAR is totally okay and listening to the end game community? It doesn't take someone in "end game" (however you want to define that) to see that BRD is slightly overpowered, and even if BRD was overpowered in everything but "end game", that doesn't mean it should be left as is.

The One and only fight bard is slightly overpowered on is titan. And that's mainly for newer players, skilled dps of any class can do just as high as the best bards.

So nerf based on one single fight? Ok

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

What people don't realize is that bard can stand far away and do max damage while moving while melee classes have to POSITION THEM SELVES to maximize their damage that's a big difference meaning you must go to the sides and behind the boss to use certain skills to do combos i swear if people can't even know the difference between bard and melee classes should just....i don't know...educate themselves before posting on subjects they have no understanding about.....

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Everyone realizes that... a lot also realize it's not that difficult play in melee, and a well played job can easily out perform bard on most every fight.

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

What people don't realize is that bard can stand far away and do max damage while moving while melee classes have to POSITION THEM SELVES to maximize their damage that's a big difference meaning you must go to the sides and behind the boss to use certain skills to do combos i swear if people can't even know the difference between bard and melee classes should just....i don't know...educate themselves before posting on subjects they have no understanding about.....

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Which actually isnt accurate, because max dmg requires brd to enter melee range.

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Originally Posted by Nooblet

Which actually isnt accurate, because max dmg requires brd to enter melee range.

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Completely false.

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Originally Posted by CatofNineTails

please post a link or quote of someone who has posted feedback that is specifically about endgame by someone who has not reached endgame and is not a "I would like this added to" because those are wish list posts like people wanting tombs to be dropped in more than one or two locations posted in threads.

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check literally any thread on the tank forums.

"hey warriors are fine guys you just need to learn to play them, although I haven't tried titan yet I don't see why titan or coil would be any different than ifrit and garuda, and I had no problems tanking them in af!"

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Originally Posted by icy1007

Completely false.

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It's actually true; repelling shot should still be part of your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

check literally any thread on the tank forums.

"hey warriors are fine guys you just need to learn to play them, although I haven't tried titan yet I don't see why titan or coil would be any different than ifrit and garuda, and I had no problems tanking them in af!"

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Nailed it. People can't differentiate getting carried from their own skill.

Ahh yes..lets censor those newbs who haven't even ran COIL yet...in fact lets not even let them post on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

check literally any thread on the tank forums.

"hey warriors are fine guys you just need to learn to play them, although I haven't tried titan yet I don't see why titan or coil would be any different than ifrit and garuda, and I had no problems tanking them in af!"

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me starting coil: hey titan was difficult! this is going to be tough.

me after starting coil turn 2: titan is a joke.

Why do you people have problems a problem if a class in PVE has can output more damage than you?

If everyone was rolling bards, then it would be a problem, but there is abundance of all other classes. It looks like everyone is choosing the role they prefer the more, not the one that is deals the more damage.

If SE nerfs bard damage, I don't mind, but that's just less damage for all the party when you are in dungeon.

Please don't tell me you are jeolous or something :rolleyes:

you dont need to be at end game to post about end game, because a full darklight bard, ina party of full darklight friends clearing AK or whatever, with relic +1's across the board, you can still see noticable differences in the Bards dmg output, and all that means, is when they get Alagan gear, or AF2, it still continues to scale in that direction, even in coil. So it would be possible to understand where the job is going dmg wise, before you even set foot in coil.

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Originally Posted by Bashkarthegreat

you dont need to be at end game to post about end game, because a full darklight bard, ina party of full darklight friends clearing AK or whatever, with relic +1's across the board, you can still see noticable differences in the Bards dmg output, and all that means, is when they get Alagan gear, or AF2, it still continues to scale in that direction, even in coil. So it would be possible to understand where the job is going dmg wise, before you even set foot in coil.

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Actually no, from what I've been reading BRD doesn't scale all that well as they upgrade from DL. And I can tell you first hand as a BRD with DL/Relic and a couple of AF2 items, there are other jobs that can pump out WAY more damage in dungeons like AK and WP. Our AOE simply doesn't compare to BLM, SMN, and even WHM.

What's clearly stated in the live letter is that BRD has an advantage because we can keep DPS'ing while on the move. It's not about our raw damage capability.

not my bard pls. square pls. hardest job in game, no nerf pls. pls..

Seriously though, I wonder just how they're going to nerf bards. I'm imagining horrible things. Stationary skill usage. I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

so this thread is not about "ppl who are not at end game cant post about endgame" but it is a "whine/cry/Q.Q/complain/contructive feed back about BRD nerfed before patch info or any detail give out" in disguise, am I right ?

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

so this thread is not about "ppl who are not at end game cant post about endgame" but it is a "whine/cry/Q.Q/complain/contructive feed back about BRD nerfed before patch info or any detail give out" in disguise, am I right ?

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BRD nerf was the most suitable example. People dont know about anything but still talking for the sake of talking. "ZOMG a lot of ppl use zerg rush meme, it must be imba and Bliz have to nerf Zerg"

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

so this thread is not about "ppl who are not at end game cant post about endgame" but it is a "whine/cry/Q.Q/complain/contructive feed back about BRD nerfed before patch info or any detail give out" in disguise, am I right ?

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Not even in disguise. The OP is literally whining about a potential BRD nerf.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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Believe it or not SE, nor any other developer, doesn't care what the people say is op/up. They've got the data collected and base their changes on that.

You're kidding yourself if you believe that the combination of the DPS it can put out, the huge amount of utility it has, and the ability to do all of this at a range - with no cast/lock, and can do this while moving is not considered OP.

Sorry but you truly are kidding yourself if you don't see this.

While it might not be "the most powerful" DPS class (general consensus says MNK and BLM are), it is able to do all of the above and still push impressive numbers.

Not to mention it actually out parses melee on highly active fights where the boss is moving around a lot.

If you could take an ultra hybrid, amazing utility ranged class that can push big DPS, or you could take a melee class that could push the same DPS and no utility, what would you choose to take?

1.) Adjust the Mana/TP gain of songs and rip off the -20% dmg thing.
2.) take the -20% and give it the bard permanently!
3.) adjust the use of MP for songs

Result:
A moving, damage dealing and SUPPORTING class.

Oh i'm not supposed to speak, i'm not at endgame....

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Originally Posted by Animation

Dragoon has no cast timers, Monk has no cast timers, by that logic every class will need a cast time which isn't fun at all. Bards aren't meant to be in the fight they should be at the backline fighting from far with very high mobility.
Instead of throwing cast timers on everything and messing it up they need to raise some TP costs and lower some damage. This will make people think "Okay I cant spam my abilities anymore without consequence".

All melee DPS have an ability to jump to a target, people should be using this as soon as they dodge AoE.

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..except that those abilities have long cooldown
we can only use it once or twice per boss fight
compared to the number of AoEs we have to dodge...

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Originally Posted by AzuraWinters

Why do you people have problems a problem if a class in PVE has can output more damage than you?

If everyone was rolling bards, then it would be a problem, but there is abundance of all other classes. It looks like everyone is choosing the role they prefer the more, not the one that is deals the more damage.

If SE nerfs bard damage, I don't mind, but that's just less damage for all the party when you are in dungeon.

Please don't tell me you are jeolous or something :rolleyes:

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the thing is, PvP is coming soon..

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Originally Posted by Vantwan

When you have for example level 37 warriors saying "the class is fine, just learn to play! I have no problems with tanking dungeons right now and I don't see why it would be a problem in the future since I'm pro and stuff" then yes, their opinions are, frankly, invalid.

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Turn 4 Coil Defeated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps11d13680.png

I have a feeling SE isn't dumb. If they are considering feedback, they aren't going to respond to some dude saying, "Waaaaah bards are too OP!" They're going to look at parsed results and consider what constructive criticism has to say. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple dev representatives have combed through the "Coil discussion" thread to consider/tweak current mechanics.

A good example of what I'm talking about would be the 'weakness' people see in warrior. Currently, a common method to doing snakes in turn 1 is to feed slimes until the snake splits, and then ignore slimes completely while you burn both down. This works if you have two paladins who can eat the increased stacks with cooldowns, but not warriors who don't have the ability to take as much. I am assuming SE's 'intended' mechanics would be to continue feeding slimes until the end, which a warrior can EASILY handle... although to be fair, I've seen warriors with good gear/healers survive with the 'ignore slimes after split' method too. That said, SE realized this 'new' method of winning the fight and is adjusting warrior to make it more viable for the strategy so that warriors do not get left out simply because it's 'easier' to use a paladin (even if warrior is still doable).

It's possible SE didn't at first realize how much people would 'stack' bards. You can use two in coil without suffering much damage loss as a whole even though bards are still considered low dps compared to most people. The idea, I think, is that SE wants you to bring in a bard for their utility -- not STACK them because it's easier and because you can. A fight can go on almost indefinitely if you have two bards rotating songs, and their damage doesn't get reduced enough to warrant avoiding the two bard setup. So, that's probably why bard is getting adjusted... so that you bring one in for the necessity, but look at other party setup choices as well.

SE isn't stupid and they're not going to be influenced by really any posting here. So let people say what they want and move on with you life.

A lot of people here just want attention and will try to get it any way they can.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

You do realise that Melee DPS have things they can do outside of melee range, right? Let's not forget the abilities to close the distance after either.

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Not all melee can do this whenever they want to. You have to pick and choose. If you run from a boss, you can get close back in, but that skill is on a cooldown. If you then have to run away again, for any amount of time, then you lose damage. Melee are only capable of doing melee in their ranges. Dragoons can Javelin or Jump to help them deal damage to close distances; both tanks have range skills; Monks have Shoulder Tackle with a stun attached (not that that does anything to a boss, or really anything to anything in Coil). But when those are on cooldown? You're gonna have to hoof it.

More difficult is that BRD can do optimal damage from ANY direction: DRG and MNK have optimal positional requirements, and the inability to achieve these makes them weaker in comparison. This is one of the reasons why Coil has been said to be extremely melee unfriendly. Better drop all melee from your party unless the group can help carry them given the amount of running around that must be done.

Consider ADS, and juggling Rot. It is preferred that those who juggle Rot are all range. That's FIVE people: two casters, and up to three range damage classes. But what if a group doesn't have that? One of your melee classes has to jump out and help juggle the debuff. This is time off the boss, time not meleeing, time spent not doing optimal damage on a dps-race. If he's a MNK, then there's NOTHING he can do while he's at range, so kick him from the group and get either a caster or a DRG, 'cause at least a DRG can Javelin and Jump at range.

Can a MNK maintain full Greased Lightning all the time while running onto/off of platforms on Caduceus? Optimal position on the Turn 4 gauntlet is for casters to stack up away from the mobs and avoid heavy hitting, but boy do melee have that rough, too.

BRD has NONE of these issues. So why ever bring anything other than a BRD? THAT'S why there needs to be a change. Some equalization in movement vs damage, a tradeoff BRD doesn't suffer but EVERY OTHER CLASS does.

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Originally Posted by CaZx

Ahh yes..lets censor those newbs who haven't even ran COIL yet...in fact lets not even let them post on the forums.

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The OP makes some good points, but the thread's title is (probably intentionally) provocative. It would be better if it read something like 'Shouldn't people who haven't reached end game refrain from posting feedback about end game?' Obviously, it's impossible technically for SE to implement automatic blocking on posts by people commenting on content they haven't done, nor would it be a wise thing for them to do even if it was somehow possible.

That said, it's still fine for, say, a Bard or Warrior to comment on the state of their class and it's problems or ways they think it could be changed up through the content they have done, though if they think the same assessment applies for endgame situations that might be radically different they would very likely be wrong. I haven't yet gotten to true end game yet, btw.

hey here is an idea lets limit the people who fate rush to 50 and want af in less than 2 weeks also lets LIMIT silly dumbass threads as well and while we are at it lets LIMIT people who say they have no gil when they hit 50 because they refuse to do trade/field crafts or lets LIMIT people who just complain about something to get attention than call somebody a white knight for disagreeing, hell lets just limit everybody Oh Wait they already DO! ---> and that's a good thing in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by icy1007

Completely false.

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How exactly do you plan on using repelling shot?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Bard is overpowered because it can do full damage while dodging/moving and staying at range, not because it does the most damage in target dummy situations. It needs cast times added on some of it's attacks, or some should root them in place for 2-3 seconds so it has to stand still to do full damage, like every other class in the game.

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Holy crap, something we agree on.

The problem is not how much DPS the Bard is capable of, it's about how restricted you are in doing it.
Monks played well will do some crazy good damage, but movement and lost boss uptime limits the potential. The same applies to Black Mages, interrupt his Astral/Umbral cycle and he has to start all over.

The adjustment to Bard damage may not even mean a loss of damage, it will most likely add in chain combos and cast times so that you're as limited as Black Mages or Summoners in movement intensive fights.
Yoshi also referenced doing something to push Bards into using their support skills more, which could mean a lot of things. Until we get some answers from the Devs on what they're considering, we need to calm down about it lol.

Perhaps people should be asking for more complicated bard rotations, or some limitations, or dps options for melee while on short disconnects. Perhaps have utility spread out a bit, already having songs and also best option for interrupts might be a bit much. But to say it's dps is too strong is just plain wrong.

I'm not sure what they have in mind for changes... and I'm still hopeful, but games usually tend to go overboard.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

1) You're still wrong about monks having any range abilities (besides the gap closer) whatsoever.
2) The analogy works (though it's obviously exaggerated) if only because melee classes have more involved in their rotations than range. Not just because they're in melee range.

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Didn't quite make it to the last page of this forum yet, but this guy beat me to it. Was thinking
this the entire time I was reading. Shoulder Tackle is our only gap-closing ability, and it's not
exactly on a short cast. We also have to be 10+ ilms away to even use it.

I think Bard's damage is as high is at is currently because I think the devs assumed they would use their songs more often, which would effectively lower their damage while they're active. As it stands now, Ballad is the most widely used song and only for White Mages. There's the occasional time you might use Requiem if you have Black Mages, but I've hardly ever seen a song used unless it's specifically for Ballad.

(and yes I've never stepped foot into Coil so maybe my observations are invalid)

I think anyone using the words "overpowered" and "nerf" should be perma-banned.

Frankly nobody but the devs are currently qualified to make any comments on job damage versus another because every damage parser out there is very inaccurate and using it as a reference for any argument is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Feilina

1.) Adjust the Mana/TP gain of songs and rip off the -20% dmg thing.
2.) take the -20% and give it the bard permanently!
3.) adjust the use of MP for songs

Result:
A moving, damage dealing and SUPPORTING class.

Oh i'm not supposed to speak, i'm not at endgame....

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Actual result: Bard's do so little damage that every 4 man group that gets stuck with two bards will run outta time before finishing the dungeon. Yay... a 20% dmg nerf is and would be complete and utter nonsense. You really shouldn't speak.

As others have mentioned bards are extremely powerful because a) they have a ton of utility in their songs and the best silence in the game (fastest to trigger AFAIK), b) they have good DPS (even if not the best) and, c) they do not have anything that limits their DPS which gives them unprecedented mobility (i.e. no real positional requirements, and no cast times).

Bard DPS isn't what is overpowered, it's a combination of all of these things and the fact that they do comparable DPS to other classes, particularly if the Piercing debuff is present.

IMO best way to balance bards would be to lower their damage by 20% across the board, and give the ma Stance skill called "Steady Aim" - Increases damage dealt by 20% when you have not moved in the last 5 seconds. They would be just as playable, but would suffer a downside to moving like every other DPS job in the game, but in a different way.