[Discussion] The Pugilist of the Future!

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Originally Posted by Akuun

I think we should wait a bit before we start going on rants about how pugilist isn't monk.

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I just want to clear things up as people seem to be misunderstanding what I said.
I didn't say that anyone is ranting, I also didn't point at any particular person.
I also said it with tense on the future, not past tense.

Now that that is out of the way.

With the stated party setup (according to Yoshi-P)
Light party (4)
Tank x1
Healer x1
DPS x2

Full party (8)
Tank x2
Healer x1
DPS x4
Support x1

Looking at this, and that there are currently 7 classes, 3 of which are designed to tank. (pug, gld, mdr)
It's likely that pugilist will be the class to be removed from this group due to gladiator and marauder already having aoe abilities for tanking.

The biggest problem with trying to make suggestions is we really have no foundation of what pugilist or any other class is headed. The sky could be the limit.
If we simply want pugilist to be a clone of monk then how do you define monk? I know that question sounds silly, but from what I've been hearing from people still playing FFXI monk has become a DPS Tank.

I don't think that pugilist is so great a tank that it can't be a solid sustained DPS. As far as whether you are DPS or Tank, I feel should be based on gear and stat points. (since SE seems to be keeping the stat system)

As things are right now Pugilist is VERY effective tank, on the other hand he is not as good as a DD as he should be compared to other classes.
Pugilist was intended to be a mix of the job Monk and the job Thief, but the sad part is that he is not dealing damage as fast as Monk (that will propably change when auto attack comes) and he is not able to deal big enough damage by utilising the "back attacks" (Sneak Attack - Trick Attack) that Thief had.
On top of that we dont even get to use Steal or Tresure Hunter...
So either we are Tanks who have trouble to Tank groups, or we are so-so DDs atm.

I'd like to focus on Damage Dealing my self I always enjoyed that, and if we manage to get some good evasive abilities VS 1 target (blink tank) I wouldn't say no either.

Pugilist seems like a good DD to me, and with flurry he has a pretty awesome speed, i dont think lancer beats us single target.
I think pugilist should have better damage on single target mobs than they do now, especially with the game probably shifting focus to party vs party. then the advantage of marauder and lancer is really going to grow.
Pug should be able to shift from heavy DD to Strong tank, versus a single monster, much like their original plan, the pugilist should be the class that can go heavy attack, and have more options for doing that, or heavy defense and have more options.
light strike/ with on evade skills and heavy with flurry are the start of this, but it needs more, maybe some more offensive combos, like skills that can only follow a flurry, or a critical hit, for large damage. Defensively, maybe some more buffs that work from the light flurry buff, or things that increase stats, or something on evasion.

I think the biggest thing hurting pugilist on the DD side is due mostly to all the mechanics they either didn't finish or left out.

Asuran fists
Shoulder tackle
Couerl step
Steal
Stances (defensive to aggressive)

Wait, we have issues AOE tanking? >_>

I think it would make a lot of difference if our feather foot 2 gave us two shadows (and was pug exclusive). I can tank anything in the game that doesn't have multiple enemies (such as the Gob NM and the such). Perhaps add in a skill that is a defense stance that parrys (but you can still attack from) an attack like mrds foresight but automatically attacks when activated costing no stamina.

Although we gt a huge amount of HP back from our second wind move, we can't match the GLDs shield skill Vs multiple enemies. Maybe add in a small leech type move like lnc has and thats all we could possibly need to become completely effective tanks vs multiple targets.

As for DD - I think we do pretty good. I suppose we could do better but if we were too good, mixed with being better tanks we could become OP. I'd be happy with better looking animations with the same DD but a notch up in survivability.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

As things are right now Pugilist is VERY effective tank, on the other hand he is not as good as a DD as he should be compared to other classes.
Pugilist was intended to be a mix of the job Monk and the job Thief, but the sad part is that he is not dealing damage as fast as Monk (that will propably change when auto attack comes) and he is not able to deal big enough damage by utilising the "back attacks" (Sneak Attack - Trick Attack) that Thief had.
On top of that we dont even get to use Steal or Tresure Hunter...
So either we are Tanks who have trouble to Tank groups, or we are so-so DDs atm.

I'd like to focus on Damage Dealing my self I always enjoyed that, and if we manage to get some good evasive abilities VS 1 target (blink tank) I wouldn't say no either.

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Not to completely derail this topic, but I too would much rather see Pugilist become more of a MNK DD'ing class so long as they strip all the THF abilities from PUG, LNC, and MRD to make it its own class ><; Oh please god, please let me be done with this class! Let the people who just want to punch things be good at it! lol

Bump - this is an interesting discussion. I'd like to see it continued :(

Only problems PGL have while tanking ismaybe only in NM groups when there is people DoTing and that in multiple targets we take too much dmg, I can keep hate with just using Invigorate/Attack buffs, and don't really need to use either Taunt or Provoke to keep hate while main tanking.
As DD, I find myself doing basically same dmg and maybe even more sometimes than LNCs, in both Damage Spikes and Damage over time(I use HQ Disabling Baghnakhs, so inflict poison + flurry spam = huge XD)
I see PGL as class that is kinda of "support" to the other DoW, we can tank if anything happens to the tank, we can DD, and can even "enfeeble" the enemies.
So in PGL I just try to have my stats "good" for anything that might happen, I have 150 str, 145 vit and 140 dex, so I'm able to do a bit of everything. x.x

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

2. Do PGL do enough damage?

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I don't know if it's just the people I party with, but as a Pugilist, I've definitely got the highest DPS. The only thing that could possibly come close is Archer, but I'd have to play as r50 Archer for a bit before I can say anything more specific than that.

In regards to tanking: it's certainly possible to tank as a Pugilist, but Gladiator is pretty much the de facto tank at this point.