If I could double like this post I would. You always seem to beat me to the punch on repsonding Peregrine. (You type what I was thinking as I read the other posts)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
If you aren't first, then you are last. A fail is a fail. Just get better at crafting and stop wasting mats and other peoples time with complaining.
(I'd like to mention that even if you get an unstable element 3 times in a row during a difficult synth (6-8 ranks above, you can still complete the synth with proper timings and skills)
Unjustified "fail @ 100%" synths -- a suggested tweak
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04-28-2011, 01:44 AMJudge_Xero
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04-28-2011, 04:32 AMKimahri
Mkay. Let me say my opinion on this matter. It doesn't need to be changed. Yes. It sucks. You need to get over it, though. The reason why you fail is because there is nothing left in the durability to keep it stable. It's like trying to cut a steak with a butter knife. Just not going to work.
If anything.......And boy is this a long shot.....Maybe you can retain some items after the synth has failed. That way it's not a total loss and people feel like they didn't just waste "put gil amount here" in materials. -
04-28-2011, 07:43 AMSmokie23
people are misreading this thread. Its not the fact you hit 0 durability...that we agree with. Its the point that only a very small percentage is need to complete the synth then it should only use a portion of the durability.
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04-28-2011, 10:32 AMPeregrineIt IS the fact that you hit 0 durability. You want a discount on durability at the end of the synth if you're close to being done so you DON'T hit 0 durability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokie23
No. You're too close to 0 durability at the end of a synth. Change the way you synth. The system isn't the one screwing up. Get to the end of a synth with more durability. The end.
Failing at 0 durability and 100% progress is fair. Using full strikes even at 99% complete is fair. People who are perseverating on these tiny fractions are doing it wrong. They're not saving enough durability to cover the odds at the end of a synth.
Becaue they're not synthing correctly, making it even easier for them to not synth correctly will just make them synth even more incorrectly, so that instead of being at 97% with 6 durability left, now they're at 82% durability with 10 durability left which is even worse but they're counting on the last 5% essentially being free so they press it. And becaue they press it they fail. Because they fail they rage. Then what do they do?
They complain that they got 17% progress when they should have gotten 20.
They complain that they got a critical failure that shouldn't have happened.
If you find yourself with 0 durability very often at all, it is you. It is not the game. Play the game well as-designed. Don't play it poorly and argue the way you play should be called well.
That's the line between success and fail. Stop playing so close to it. -
04-28-2011, 10:48 AMPeregrineIt's really the only response you can give to a crafter who seems really frustrated at 0 durability outcomes: don't go near 0 durability, obviously. You and I both know 80% complete, 30% durability is a much safer place than 70% complete, 30% durability left. Never get a tens digit behind on your progress % compared to durability remainder, or you will get burned. Often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
When met with 70% complete, 30 durability left, the good player finishes the synth as safely as they can and gets out of dodge because THEY ARE BEHIND IN THE SYNTH. They are not okay. They have a big risk of failure. They know a critical fail could be right around the corner. The bad player figures they have some room left to wiggle when they don't. They never see that critical fail coming.
Plan for calamity. Cover your bases.
Too many players assume they're never wrong. The game's wrong. The game's unfair.
No, they're not playing that well and made poor decisions. -
04-29-2011, 12:39 AMJesiCool, I'm glad you agree that going from 99% to 100% should use less durability (vs a full synthesis action), but I'm not sure if I can agree with the animation-based measure of durability... since the animation is exactly the same regardless of the outcome of the attempt. When you get a perfect success and the synthesis costs 0 durabilty, the animation looks exactly the same as when you get a really bad fail that costs over 20 durability(while unstable). So I don't see why a pro-rated synthesis going from 99% to 100%(probably using little durability) can't use the same animation as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renshi
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Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I don't get "fooled" into a false sense of security when I see 97% with low dura left, I expect to fail and when I do, I just sigh and move on like everyone else. If I didn't, I would've given up crafting and probably would not bother with explaining a tweak that would only boost overall synth success rate by a single digit percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
97%, Dura 8
>Standard -- Success 20% / 8 loss
100% Dura 0
>Break
I am positive alot of players have already had the above happen to them, and then thought, "20% for 8 dura? Hmm, if that was pro-rated, I probably would of finished the synth since I only needed 3%". It's not like it happens often, but when it does, you DO notice and sorta feel cheated, because the game is letting you craft beyond 100% and charging you for it. Logically it makes no sense to go beyond 100% when you are creating an item. When it's done, it's done.
Example 1
When you bake a cake, you check on it periodically, say every 30mins. If the cake is almost done (90% progress) and only needs 10mins more to bake, are you going to wait a full 30mins to check it again because that's size of your action interval? No, you'll check it again in 10mins otherwise it'll burn and be ruined.
Example 2
If that doesn't sound right to you, how about this. I'm not a mechanic, but I know with alot of machinery you are not supposed to overtighten the lugnuts/bolts. You are only supposed to torque them to a specified amount otherwise it will cause problems. If your normal stroke of your wrench turns a bolt 180deg(half circle) and the bolt is supposed to be tighted by 270degrees(3/4 circle), are you going to tighted it 360degrees(full circle) just because that's the size of 2 strokes? Or are you going to use 1 full stroke and 1 partial stroke?
The purpose of crafting is to get to 100% before dura reaches 0, SE says so themself on the lodestone(see quote). So why is the game allowing the last synth to calculate progress OVER 100% and charge you for it?
Source: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...e/craft01.html
In the example I give further above, 20% consumes 8 dura when only 3% was needed. Common sense would tell you that you would have finished that if the game did not let progress calculate to 117%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Square-Enix
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Now on the flip side, I understand Peregrine & Judge Xero's point which can be summed up as, "stop crying, try harder".
It's not like I'm saying, "Wow! Hard synths are hard! I failed some synths, game is broken!!1111wun"
- I agree that when you hit 0 durabiltiy, you should fail, even at 100%.
- Skill and proper timing when using abilities can make even the hardest synths somewhat managble.
- If you fail a synth that is much higher than you, it's because it's much higher than you and you should EXPECT to fail alot.
- I also agree that you should plan for critical failures(unstables) by conserving durabiltiy even when you are 95%, because they DO happen. (this is my personal crafting style)
- I am in no shape or form debating any aspect of difficulty when it comes to crafting.
What I'm proprosing should not create a "free 5%". People should still expect to fail on long shots like you pointed out. If they complain about it, they then don't understand how crafting works or just aren't crafting properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
My point is that this one facet of the crafting system should be changed because it it is illogical and sometimes cheats you. Going over 100% makes no sense and should not be allowed. The last synth should be curtailed and have the possible durability loss pro-rated to match the progress. This would not have a large impact on the system, just those few instances where you blatantly should've finished the synth.I don't think this tweak could be abused or make people "bolder". Players should do the exact same thing they do right now when they have very low dura and only a few percent prog left, hit Standard and hope for the best. No one uses Rapid unless you're over 20% away from finish, even then you have no garauntee that rapid would output 30% for you anyway, not to mention the lower success rate. So the bottom line is, if you screw up, or the synth is too hard, you will still get boned in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
I won't bother trying to prove if I play the game poorly or not, but playing "the game well as-designed" is sort of a problem since the game was a real piece of crap when it was launched. It's only NOW getting better because the developers are listening to the players, which is the purpose of the forums. I am actually glad that people are debating and providing counter points, but please don't think of it as "complaining" when I try to argue an improvment that I earnestly think would make the game better. Please see past the fact that people fail at 100% because they suck, I agree, it's just I'm talking about something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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04-29-2011, 04:18 AMPeregrine
Every RPG in the history of man has designed Rank 1 rats with 32 HP for Rank 1 heroes who hit for 28. Deal with it. You kill it in two full rounds. Not a round and a little bit of a part of one because you basically killed it.
Seriously, enough with the nickel and diming petitions. It's as if some people have never had to deal with any disappointment on any level in their lives, and this game IS their rank 1 rat that they hit once and it doesn't die.
WHAT? I was supposed to win that one!
No, you weren't.
You're underprepared and underlevelled for that synth. You're blinking red at 3 hp and it's the enemy's turn. Don't argue that they're almost dead, so their attack power should be next to nothing. YOU are almost dead so yours should too if that's the case. They're going to hit you for full damage, or they're going to miss you.
You better pray for a miss, because not even a parry is going to help you.
Again. You're almost dead, and it's the Bronze Hoplon's turn to hit you. Awwe the Hoplon hit you for 8. You are dead.
The Hoplon's not sitting there whining that you have 2 durability left, it should get a prorating on percent completion, because there's no way you can get 20% completion with 2 durability.
If we gave the prorating to you, we should give it to the Hoplon and start nerfing your % completion when you have <10 durability left because you don't have sufficient durability for a full attempt. Why should the Hoplon be subject to 10-30% progress completions when it almost has you whipped if you're not subjected to its full strikes if it has you whipped?
Fair. Moving on. -
04-30-2011, 03:36 AMJesiI already explained in other posts on this thread why I think a battle analogy does not work for crafting, so either you didn't read them or don't care/disagree with them. If by chance you didnt read them, the links are below, but I'll also explain further here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
Post 5 - top section of post
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post108675
Post 16 - middle of post, para starting with "I am positive alot of players", also Example 1 & 2
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post111654
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Side Note
It is a bit ridiculous I have to break it down like this, but I want to be thorough. If anyone readying this already agrees that overkill/over100% progress should not apply to crafting, you can just skip the next section, or just read the end result of the examples.
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Now The issue I'm talking about is just a nuance of the crafting system, not a player being "underprepared and underlevelled for that synth" as you put it. The system itself let's you craft over 100% progress when, logically, it shouldn't. Just to be clear, I'm going to refer to this as "overkill" since battle situations are the most common anaology people use to defend this, just like you did.
-== Logic of Overkill in Battle vs Crafting==-
As you mention in your first post on this thread(Post 9), there will always be a cutoff, and that's absolutely right, but that's only half the story. What really matters is what happens if you go past that cutoff point. If we examine real life situations you'll see what I mean.
= Battle =
In battle, your objective is to kill your oponent... or in other words, cease the fuction of the target's body with no regard to the final condition. So essentially, you want to do enough damage to meet or surpass a certain threshold(their max HP).
You can probably figure out where I'm going with each example, but just hear me out.
Let's say your target is a human and their max/current HP is 1000. Dealing damage to different parts of the body will have varying impact on their health.
Example 1- Cut off his big toe
- This alone would yield minimal damage since a toe is not critical to life function. At best the bleeding will yield damage over time until it clots. So that would be about 4hp/min for 10mins, A total of 40HP
- Gradually create skin deep lacerations all over the body from head to toe (chinese torture method)
- Now this would cause many non-fatal wounds, but the combined DoT damage would eventually cause lethal blood loss, resulting in a slow & painful death (which why it's a torture method)
- If 1 cut = 4hp/min for 10mins (40hp), death would occur around 25 cuts depending on the uniformity of the cuts and blood loss (25 x 40 = 1000)
Example 2- A shot or stab to the heart or brain
- This would cause immediate death due to their critical life function. So that would result in an immediate translation to 1000dmg + DoT from severe bleeding caused by high blood flow and difficulty clotting (50HP/min over 20mins, or 1000dmg)
- So, Instant death (1000) + blood loss (1000) = 2000 damage total
- But does that extra damage from bleeding matter? NO! They already died instantly
Example 3 - Extreme Overkill- Burning to death via flamethrower
- This would cause widespread damage on the skin which would not cause instant death by itself, but overheating and internal tissue damage would result in a quick death as it continues.
- So that means it would start around 20HP/second and go up to about 100HP/second after 30seconds as the internal tissue starts to burn. It should continue to burn until all fat content in the body is consumed (30mins? Although, I've heard of corpses burning even longer <.<)
- So 20hp/sec to 100hp/sec over 30sec would be about 1865 damage. Then the other 29.5mins of burn time at 100hp/sec would be 177,000dmg. A grand total of 178,865 damage.
- Does that matter? No lol, they died in the first 30secs when it passed 1000dmg.
Obviously overkill makes sense in battle, so it applies in the battle system of the game. Now on to crafting.
= Crafting =
In crafting your goal is to turn specific materials into a specific shape, form, or condition. That shape/form/condition is the threshold you want to meet, anything else is a failure.
For these examples I specifically chose situations where making "progress" is done by the same type of action from start to finish because it translates to how the game does crafting. So to re-iterate, it's same mode of action, just variations in method, like how hard you turn your wrench or how long you let the pan sit over various amounts of stove heat, etc.
You can make the arguement this is not a direct correletion to when you synth a real life item, for example, building a car, putting on a tire is not really the same type of action as installing a windshield. Yet, if you break it down into multiple smaller synts. it matches the game's system very well. For example putting on a tire would be an entire synth, and tightening the lugnuts would be the repetitive action that is guaged by the progress bar.
Steak- You apply various amounts of heat for at different durations; short high heat for a nice sear, then a long medium heat to cook it without burning
- There is definitive stop point that you want to reach, whether it is rare, medium rare, or well done. If you go past that point, you have failed to make the steak you intended.
Sculpture- You use your chisel with varying amounts of force from your hammer at well placed spots to shape the material into the final product
- Let's say you're working on a sculpture of a cube. Sure, you can pretend you're Thor and use mighty strikes of your hammer to get the general shape, but you cant do that near the end otherwise you'll just cause cracks and/or chip off a chunk you didn't intend to.
- Using excessive force and losing a whole corner of the cube is not acceptable
Gemstones- Use a grinding wheel to shape a raw stone into a precious gem by holding the stone up against the wheel for various amounts of pressure and duration
- You're almost done and only 1 tiny grind is needed to get a perfect shape.
- So would you just mash it against the wheel for awhile like you're just starting with a new piece? If you want to ruin it, yeah go ahead.
Shaping a Metal Plate- How about a Bronze Hoplon like in Peregrine's example.
- You're shaping a metal plate into a specific curved shape by using strikes of your hammer that vary in strength/pressure.
- You're almost done and just need one little tap in the middle to make it perfectly curved just they way you want it.
- Is it ok to just start wailing it like youre IronMan making a new suit now? Maybe go with a light and controlled tap and call it a day and success.
I could go on, but it should be clear that overkill doesn't work when you're creating an item. I even went as far as to choose examples from actual in game synths (except for the scultpure unless you sorta count Crp offhand), so this should apply even more.
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Having said all that, the game mechanics of crafting need to be adjusted to stop letting you craft beyond 100%. It should stop at exactly 100% and end, or enter the "touch up" phase if it's a finished item.
I am not saying this because I'm some whiny crafter who's desparately trying to stop breaking synths, it's because there is a loophole in the logic governing the current crafting system. Saying, "stop crying and try harder by using better judgement with craft actions or using HQ mats" is not a solution to the problem. If you still think that after reading everything I said, you're completely missing the point.