[dev 1026] Petition against proposed claim system and portions of new party system.

Much too early to conjecture. I'm sure the dev team knows about the issues involved and I think the majority of the players would adapt to whatever system is in place.

But I understand instancing is usually only about 1 group per instance. Where do you get the idea that multiple parties will be allowed in massive dungeons? They said sought after items will be instanced so I don't think there will be much drama in the open world on who gets the aldgoat horn...

If they allow multiple parties to engage and "help" defeat an NM, I think most people would welcome it if each party gets their own loot table. I don't see why only one rare item should be awarded to the first party that claimed or the party that does the most damage. Why not, for example, give each party that participates a certain amount, say at least 20-30% of damage, a chance of getting some rare loot, and those who merely participates can get a chance at common loot. Each winning party can each get their own Ura skin for example. But most likely, everyone will get nothing cuz the drop rate for it is so crappy...~.~

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Originally Posted by Xzen

The system you seem to have in mind sounds like good system but then the looting and sp/xp would need to be awarded the way you have outlined. =)

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Well of course. Mob claiming and loot system are intrinsically connected. If you change one, you must consider the effects on the other and compensate.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

If they allow multiple parties to engage and "help" defeat an NM, I think most people would welcome it if each party gets their own loot table. I don't see why only one rare item should be awarded to the first party that claimed or the party that does the most damage. Why not, for example, give each party that participates a certain amount, say at least 20-30% of damage, a chance of getting some rare loot, and those who merely participates can get a chance at common loot. Each winning party can each get their own Ura skin for example. But most likely, everyone will get nothing cuz the drop rate for it is so crappy...~.~

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Exactly, that's pretty much the idea. Don't punish people who want to help you, encourage them.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

One problem with the proposed system: it doesn't allow ad-hoc cooperative play without formal party forming.
More simply: if I ran past you and see you're struggling with a mob, I can't actually help you kill it.

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That's not really an excuse for having a poor claiming system. Besides, allowing things like that only works in games that have only instanced content, which this game does not. In XI there was a "Call for help" option due to this, and they could implement something similar. Hopefully not in a location where someone can hit it on accident. In fact they could combine the call for help feature with this suggestion you made:

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

A possible alternative to this would be system where joining an ongoing fight simply does not take anything away from the people who "claimed" the mob first. The joining party would need to cross a certain threshold of participation before they become eligible for rewards of any kind. In this case, SP/EXP/items wouldn't be split, but the additional participants would be awarded from a seperate, additional SP/EXP/item pool.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

In general a good idea, though I would suggest a cap on the number of mobs or mob groups that can be claimed at a time. Perhaps 3? Without that cap, or with a cap too large, open world mob zerging could be an issue.

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I considered that this could be an issue. However with the changes to the battle system/combat we are supposed to have more engaging battles. To me this would mean fights that last longer than a few seconds that actually require attention. This would make it so mob zerging would be very difficult or impossible. I'm taking a more wait and see approach to this issue because I don't know how it would work until I know what the changes to combat are.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

Much too early to conjecture. I'm sure the dev team knows about the issues involved and I think the majority of the players would adapt to whatever system is in place.

But I understand instancing is usually only about 1 group per instance. Where do you get the idea that multiple parties will be allowed in massive dungeons? They said sought after items will be instanced so I don't think there will be much drama in the open world on who gets the aldgoat horn...

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That's an assumption I'd rather not hope for. I personally feel it's best to get your opinions out before a system is implemented. It makes it easier for them to change things not yet implemented if they agree with you.

Instances can be for more than one group. An example of this would be Dynamis from FFXI. You buy a specific item from an NPC then you trade the item to everyone who will be joining, all players trade said item to a spot and that allows them to enter. I don't know or assume that they will put something like this in the game. That comment was more so because the system would allow them to if they chose to in the future. Also, yes they did say sought after items will be instanced, they did not say all sought after items are going to be from instancing. I doubt with them adding even more NM's in the game they'll change all current items into instances and make all current and future open world NM's worthless.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

If they allow multiple parties to engage and "help" defeat an NM, I think most people would welcome it if each party gets their own loot table. I don't see why only one rare item should be awarded to the first party that claimed or the party that does the most damage. Why not, for example, give each party that participates a certain amount, say at least 20-30% of damage, a chance of getting some rare loot, and those who merely participates can get a chance at common loot. Each winning party can each get their own Ura skin for example. But most likely, everyone will get nothing cuz the drop rate for it is so crappy...~.~

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I doubt most would welcome it. Allowing people to zerg NM's would just make all the fights way too easy and boring. It would be the opposite of what most people want.

Another issue is people “helping” to fight an NM or mob when that person does not want help. If I try to fight something difficult for the fun of the challenge I don't want someone running up to “help” and ruin it. I can't count how many times this has happened to me in WoW.

I doubt most people would zerg open world NMs if the loot is only so so. I'm sure most people would go to an instance for the fun and challenge, and I assume most instances would allow only 1 or very few groups in. Allowing a passerby to help out on an "open" world NM can allow for a more interactive co-op world. Open world NM become mini public quests if you will. Instance NMs would be more for party play.

1 claim system can be boring because you don't interact with anyone else. Its just you and your party/LS for everything. Having a little spontaneity can't hurt.

I don't think anyone here wants to have a repeat of a hundred people spawn camping an open world NM like in XI. Tho its less likely now that open world NMs spawn much faster and in more places.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

I doubt most people would zerg open world NMs if the loot is only so so. I'm sure most people would go to an instance for the fun and challenge, and I assume most instances would allow only 1 or very few groups in. Allowing a passerby to help out on an "open" world NM can allow for a more interactive co-op world. Open world NM become mini public quests if you will. Instance NMs would be more for party play.

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There would be no point in having open world NM's if the gear is very so-so. A lot of people would go do instances obviously, but that doesn't mean less will do open world NM's. It is a feature many players like. The problem with multiple people being able to fight with NM's is if 2 separate groups are trying to fight an NM for loot and another group comes in, kills the mob and gets the loot. That is an issue.

I guess having passerby's "helping" with an NM sounds like a great and fun idea to you, I personally think it is a bad idea because I personally don't think people who actually want a challenge fighting NM's want help. It's a rather noobish mentality to endgame so I'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

1 claim system can be boring because you don't interact with anyone else. Its just you and your party/LS for everything. Having a little spontaneity can't hurt.

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When doing content most people only want it to be with their party/LS. Again, allowing people to jump into a battle spontaneously makes for boring combat, something I don't believe most players want. I'll again have to agree to disagree because I also don't see you changing your stance on this.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

I don't think anyone here wants to have a repeat of a hundred people spawn camping an open world NM like in XI. Tho its less likely now that open world NMs spawn much faster and in more places.

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That will most likely not happen in XIV. It's not even something I'm for, it hasn't been mentioned once in this thread, and It's completely off topic so I'm not sure why you even mentioned it.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

That's not really an excuse for having a poor claiming system. Besides, allowing things like that only works in games that have only instanced content, which this game does not.

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I agree, it's not an excuse, it's in fact a damn good reason to come up with something better. Supposedly MMOs are about playing together with other people. Why is there a system that prevents that?

And I disagree on you second observation, it works very well in the open world part if you design it properly. It has been done before, I don't see a reason why SE couldn't do it as well, if not better.

The only thing I wanted changed about the claim system is the ability to claim multiple mobs. Im fine with instanced dungeons, but I would like them in addition to roaming NMs

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

I agree, it's not an excuse, it's in fact a damn good reason to come up with something better. Supposedly MMOs are about playing together with other people. Why is there a system that prevents that?

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There isn't a system that prevents playing with other people. Parties and Alliances = playing with other people. You don't have to have a system where someone can jump in on a mob whether you want them to or not just to play with others.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

And I disagree on you second observation, it works very well in the open world part if you design it properly. It has been done before, I don't see a reason why SE couldn't do it as well, if not better.

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How would you design it to prevent people from fighting mobs someone or their group is fighting when they don't want help? Do you have an example of it working well?

As I've said before, people "helping" on mobs and NM's, regardless of how SP/Loot is distributed is unwanted by anyone who actually wants a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

How would you design it to prevent people from fighting mobs someone or their group is fighting when they don't want help? Do you have an example of it working well?

As I've said before, people "helping" on mobs and NM's, regardless of how SP/Loot is distributed is unwanted by anyone who actually wants a challenge.

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Short version:
If they don't need any help, why would I interfere?
If they do need help, why wouldn't they want me to provide it?

If you want to have a challenging fight, design the mob in a way that it can react to the numbers of players, so that a player that joins you doesn't change the level of challenge.


Long version:

One way to approach this is to design situations so that you simply wouldn't want to not play along other people around you.
DCUO did that by designing it so that players who were in the same place usually had the same objectives, so they would naturally want to just work together.
GW2 is taking that basic idea further and pretty much designs the whole open world PvE experience around that premise.

If you really are all about the challenge, you can either design monsters with the ability to scale with player numbers, or you situate them in a place where you're in control over the fight parameters. How many participants, what roles, what rank/gear quality etc. Instances or arenas are the best place for that kind of setup. Without that level of control, you're already watering down the challenge by introducing uncertain variables. Is it a challenge to try kill the big dude with just 4 people? Is it still a challenge if you bring 5?

Is my point clear? Do you get what I mean? That is a situation where it's all about the mechanics, so you'd be better served to isolate it from any outside intervention in the first place, and set up a frame where your achievement actually becomes measurable.

That is a very specific situation though. I don't think it's feasible to extrapolate it on every encounter you'd run into in the open world. Out there, we're all out for the same goals. We shouldn't ever have to think twice about helping out a fellow adventurer. That's the whole point of the game, isn't it? To grasp the opportunity for adventure when it presents itself.

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The alleged system currently under consideration/implementation: Multiple parties can claim. All parties share SP/exp/Loot. Number of mobs allowed to claim stays the same. Parties are decreased to 8 people, some content made for 4. As far as we know alliances are not currently planned.

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I would also be opposed to this system. But I don't see where anyone is suggesting that it will be implemented. It looks to me like Yoshi-P has actually said it's not going to happen.

The whole point of "instanced" content -- which is what it looks like Yoshi-P is actually suggesting -- is that only one party can be in an instance. When I enter an instance, I've got the whole world -- and all the mobs in it -- to myself. So, by definition, multiple parties cannot claim the same mob.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Also, from your proposed system:

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Allow groups to claim more than 1 mob at a time.

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As I understand it, the reason the FFXIV team didn't do this was because it was frequently exploited in FFXI. I could run into a lower level area and use an AoE spell to claim every mob in the area. That would leave no mobs for the lower level members to fight.

And it's also used as an exploit for power leveling. Say you've got a party of seven level 1s and a level 50. The level 50 runs through and kites every mob in a low level area, then quickly wipes them out with a single AoE spell. In FFXIV, SP/XP is determined for each player individually. So the fact that there's a level 50 in your party doesn't hurt your SP/XP. The seven level 1s all the get the benefit of having killed every mob in the area, despite having done nothing. Here's an example of it being done in FFXI.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/par...p-exploit.html