So, when is VPR getting nerfs? (Frontline)

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

First of all, cropping out a single scoreboard entry and saying "Look how broken this is!" removes all context and overlooks the many factors which influence a game.

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Even without the many factors, which I even put most of them in the head of my post, tanking that much damage AS A DPS on top doing 7 million is INSANE and shows something needs to be toned down. Either bravery or bloodbath. If you wish to know, it was I believe the Azem Steppe map. I have never even seen anyone come close to 7 million. Maybe you have, I haven't.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

Hey, if we're calling to nerf VPR into oblivion, lets just do the same for these, right?

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Show me, where, at any point did I say "Nerf viper into oblivion" like? I simply asked for them to be nerfed, not into oblivion, you don't have to put words into my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

One game isn't enough to judge by, as described above. And, as said, it also depends on who else you may have had in your team. For example, as a regular FL player, I tend to quickly recognise familiar veteran players (often friends) who I often see within FLs and who I know will make themselves a headache to me and my team. If they're giving me a harder time than you are, there is no doubt that I will be focusing my attention on countering them rather than you - VPR or not.

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If I, an admittedly terrible PvP player can rack up 2 million damage on a job I have never played before, then I do feel the job is too easy for too much gain. In even better hands, they can do much more, and as we both pointed out, even more with a DNC buddy carrying them with bravery.

I feel like you are genuinely downplaying how OP VPR is right now. And perhaps it's not VPR in itself but Bravery/Bloodbath, in any case, VPR is benefiting way too much from both of these and leading to a very imbalanced state of FL.

I'd be wary about pulling scoreboards to argue for anything to be honest. It doesn't work in CC and I don't think it works that well in FL either. Look how much SCH has always been able to pad with ease along much of its modern lifetime, and it doesn't mean jack in terms of actual game impact.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Because they effectively stunlock themselves for four seconds whenever they use Snake Scales which making them an easy target to focus fire and time the slew of CC PvP jobs have. Even with the FL's DR and Snake Scales DR, an alliance full of BH3-5s can still 100 -> 0 a scales VPR in less than four seconds.

They've had 60% DR since patch 7.2. Y'all never complained about it then. It's only an issue now because they buffed leech abilities. So now ranged players are crying that a melee job finally stopped being a free kill. The amount of times I've seen range players cry because a 0 damage, 0 kills - 10 death PLD or DRK popped their LB to escape a 24v1 is staggering. That's a good thing, as it means their not doing anything with it during a team fight (not that they would have done much anyway to begin with). But the point is, anything that slightly inconveniences range players is a problem, because they refuse to adapt or put in any effort.


God forbid players work together in a team based mode. There is a reason why they keep buffing melee survivability, while increasing melee job's ranged capabilities, because melee is trash without them.

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I mean what do you want at this point? Getting away with your cake and eat it? DNC spins the same amount of time, has only 25% mitigation from it, and the job DR in FL is literally half, and you get zero healing once you're done with it. And unlike VPR that is CC immune under scales (except to some LBs), DNC like GNB can be stunlocked to death while spinning very easily without an easy way out. VPR can also use bloodbath on top of it.

All I have to say is, there is skill in when and where to use such skills and VPR already has it the easiest without any DR considerations. No, VPR doesn't need to be tougher than a tank just because of this, especially when unlike tanks it has easy escape options. And you're right as I said, VPR was less of a problem back then because of no role actions to compound the issue.

And again i'll say it, I don't think VPR is a colossal issue in FL for the reasons I've stated in my first post that you conveniently chose to ignore. I don't really have a horse in this race.

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The problem with melee jobs in FL vs ranged jobs is a bit similar to what we see in CC actually, but pushed to extremes. Melees are hard to pull and play well, and require a lot of vigilance and game sense. Casuals just get trounced on melees because they have no idea how to play them well—it's so much easier to stay at a safe distance (and still get mowed down by competent players when they think those can't reach them but they actually can). Meanwhile good players will actually make melees shine, and it's been a thing since forever, way before role actions were reintroduced this expansion.

Therefore FL meta between casuals and skilled players has always been a hard balance to walk through and it's always gone back and forth between melees outright dominating when they were actually made ok for casuals to play when they first introduced DR in FL, to then become a ranged meta when they dialed this down, only to change again back to melee domination, then back to ranged, etc. If you get an even average split between ranged and melee jobs in FL, usually this means melees are completely abusable and broken into the right hands. If you see a big majority of ranged jobs on average in FL (like this expansion), then it usually means melees and ranged are more closer in check but it also means casuals will pick what doesn't lead them to yolo into death over and over.

Said another way, if you want melees to be playable by the average jane/joe, they'll be OP or outright broken in the hands of good players. Meanwhile if you want them to fall back more in line then you'll have a ranged meta where everybody but some strong players or premade special comps that will use them.

It's not a question of being against people playing together in a team based mode, it's a question of balance, and you and I obviously don't see eye to eye on this specific point. Role actions are outright broken and break the game and I'll die on that hill. For premades doubly so but even in the hands of solo players.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

But rather than recognise that and try to change things, many will just default to 'who cares anyway? I'm only here for my exp'. A self-fulfilling prophecy: they expect to lose, so they don't try, so they do lose. On repeat.

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Like, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with your post overall, but reading this just makes me wonder how many times we'll get told this over and over at some point.

For context I am NOT a pvp casual, and while I don't dive into FL as much as into CC, I still have thousands of FL games under my belt as a purely solo player (or casual premade group with one or two very casual friends from time to time just to do their dailies). I've always known how to counter some premades as a solo player, I know pvp jobs in details and i know what I do with each of them and which ones to pick if I have to. I know how to delete BH5 players and actually used to take a lot of fun in trying to go for that challenge until recently. PLD has always been an oppressive piece of garbage both in FL and CC and I've myself played it a lot and abused it a lot (although not within optimized groups), because it makes it absolutely excruciatingly hard to actually deal with the high value BH5 premade targets since they get an absolute free get out of jail card, but again, I've never complained, not once. I've always defended the possibility to play in teams, with friends, and use our tools at their most and promoting skill play.

I have however always been very critical of game balance decisions that have continuously cropped up in FL and made the mode a very bad experience in some respects.

But until now? I've always had fun because deleting BH5 players actually meant something until their awful recent changes. It meant skilled counterplay, and it rewarded me by knowing that I had contributed to get in the way of the enemy by neutering their offensive power (until they rebuilt it back...). Right now though? Yeah, even as a veteran solo player in FL, I actually gave in. Not only they introduced those role actions that are an absolute idiocy in terms of synergy and how gamebreaking they are (and don't get me wrong, I really actually enjoy that we can pick different options and there isn't always a clear cut meta at times, at least solo), which was already starting to seriously get on my nerves seeing what people could get away with for free, but now this BH change??

Yeah sorry to say, but there is a point where I just recently came to "who cares anyway". I've mostly stopped playing the mode. My options as a solo player not only against crazy role action combos compounding already seriously broken job combos mowing down entire teams of casuals only serving as chaff in a game mode they don't even care for, but now against the removal of actual skill at playing with caution and knowing my actions don't even lead to anything anymore, then yes, who the hell still cares beyond organized groups? Not me. Like, you may have lost the casuals to that mindsets long ago which is a given, but actual solo vets like me? Can't speak for everyone, but as far as i'm concerned, i'm out, this is just not fun anymore.

It's not the casuals that actually care, they have never cared in the first place. It's players like me that get told "get in a premade yourself or stfu".

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Even without the many factors, which I even put most of them in the head of my post, tanking that much damage AS A DPS on top doing 7 million is INSANE and shows something needs to be toned down.

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So first the issue was that it deals too much damage, now the issue is that it tanks too much? Personally, I think we're just looking for issues because it's a class you don't like going up against.

As shown in my last post, multiple classes have been known to deal that kind of damage when the circumstances are right. I even gave screenshot examples. And as for damage taken, that largely comes down to playstyle. Unlike many classes who will seek to avoid taking damage as much as they can, VPR deals damage by taking damage. It's always going to have high damage taken numbers because it doesn't really deal good damage any other way. But, again, a lot of classes can tank just as much - I've managed to reach 3m damage taken on SAM before.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Either bravery or bloodbath. If you wish to know, it was I believe the Azem Steppe map. I have never even seen anyone come close to 7 million. Maybe you have, I haven't.

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Yes, Bravery and Bloodbath could do with some adjustments, I'd agree. Pretty surprised they boosted Bloodbath and Smite at all, to be honest. Not that I'm particularly complaining though, as it helps me as much as it helps them. They just didn't really need buffing any more than they were, in my opinion

And the map was Onsal then, which confirms what I said in my last post and further explains why the damage was fairly high. Assuming there is a nice period in which the center platform is active, Onsal is an extremely nice map to pad: three teams in close range, long fights over a single node, everyone nicely gathered on those narrow ramps etc. It's perfect for anyone wanting to farm BH and get big damage and kill/assist numbers.

Yes, I've seen it before. Not super often, I'll admit, with averages being more around 2- 5m. But certainly 7m isn't an impossible amount, particularly if someone is using party members to support them. That said, I've no doubt played a lot more FL than you.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Show me, where, at any point did I say "Nerf viper into oblivion" like? I simply asked for them to be nerfed, not into oblivion, you don't have to put words into my mouth.

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The issue comes in that the 'nerf' is never deemed enough, as has been shown in the past by DRK. It was used to lead and coordinate teams. It was changed on the back of complaints that it needed to be nerfed. But the complaints continued, again and again, to the point where it now is of limited use within FL to a casual solo player. The constant cries to nerf it, even after changes had been made, means that it now (usually) needs it's hand-held and the backup of a premade/good team to survive.

What I'm saying is, this community doesn't ever seem happy unless their ranged classes are having an easy time of it.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

If I, an admittedly terrible PvP player can rack up 2 million damage on a job I have never played before, then I do feel the job is too easy for too much gain. In even better hands, they can do much more, and as we both pointed out, even more with a DNC buddy carrying them with bravery.

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And, as I said, you very likely had an easy game of it. Why focus on you who (no offence) was likely not posing much of a threat, when there's other more dangerous players out there? Hence, you were likely allowed to roam free, with few challenges to limit your damage. Had that VPR in your screenshot attempted to do the same, they will no doubt have been met with a barrage of ccs, kbs, and LBs, hence their choice to resort to using a team of friends to help protect and support them.

A SMN who has no clue what they're doing can get 2m in a game - I know because it's the class I started PvP with. Similar for SCH, GNB, or BLM. VPR is not the only one.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

I feel like you are genuinely downplaying how OP VPR is right now. And perhaps it's not VPR in itself but Bravery/Bloodbath, in any case, VPR is benefiting way too much from both of these and leading to a very imbalanced state of FL.

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I wouldn't say that I'm downplaying it. As I said, there's certainly some tweaks needed here and there, particularly with the job role actions (Bravery, Bloodbath etc.). And the LB HP regain was an unexpected change too, but then, SE focuses on changing classes to CC, rather than FL. But in this case there was more context to it than simply the class:
- It was Onsal, a padding map
- It was a veteran FL player
- It was a premade VPR using DNC buffs and PLD cover to protect themselves and increase damage

All of these factors will increase the damage beyond simply the class. So it's not exactly a fair case to judge the class on - there are other classes (again, as shown in my last post), that can deal the same damage with the same support.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Like, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with your post overall, but reading this just makes me wonder how many times we'll get told this over and over at some point.

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:p

True. That said, I've had to listen to the same phrase from the casuals over and over, multiple times of an evening. So I suppose the repetitiveness rubs off on me!

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Originally Posted by Valence

But until now? I've always had fun because deleting BH5 players actually meant something until their awful recent changes. It meant skilled counterplay, and it rewarded me by knowing that I had contributed to get in the way of the enemy by neutering their offensive power (until they rebuilt it back...). Right now though? Yeah, even as a veteran solo player in FL, I actually gave in. Not only they introduced those role actions that are an absolute idiocy in terms of synergy and how gamebreaking they are (and don't get me wrong, I really actually enjoy that we can pick different options and there isn't always a clear cut meta at times, at least solo), which was already starting to seriously get on my nerves seeing what people could get away with for free, but now this BH change??

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It's a controversial change, true. And I can't deny that I couldn't quite believe what I was reading when I heard of the changes to BH, so much so that I was trying to think of all sorts of ways that it may be interpreted to mean different things, because 'they wouldn't do that, surely?'.
That said, I have to say that I do like the change. Sure, there's maybe the tiniest feeling of disappointment knowing that the player I just deleted is going to come back again just as strong as before, but I don't see that as being the sole purpose behind my defeating them: I'm not doing it solely to weaken them.

In the case of a VPR (as that's the topic of the thread), in killing them, I have:
- Prevented them dealing any further, high damage to me and my team in that moment. If they were in the process of an LB, even better, I have just wasted that too.
- Although respawn no longer has a timer, I have still slightly delayed them, requiring them to waste time running back to the fight before they can start dealing damage again.
- I have removed a valuable tank from the enemy team, so that my own team can focus down the casters/ranged behind without being hindered by a tank/melee so that, when the tank/melee does return, they'll have less team support
- I might not need the BH, but I've hopefully just helped my other team members build theirs through the kill/assist

And, anyway, that same privilege of keeping BH applies to me also. If I'm playing solo MNK in Shatter to counter a DRK premade, the first few LBs might be no issue. But once the first few vokes are disrupted, it can happen that the premade sets someone to focus on stopping me stopping them, and the attempts become far more risky. I always continued to try either way - 1 death is better than a team wipe, but keeping my BH is a nice way to try to prevent even that.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's not the casuals that actually care, they have never cared in the first place. It's players like me that get told "get in a premade yourself or stfu".

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As someone who also usually plays either solo or with 1 other friend, I have no clue where you get the idea it's "get in a premade yourself or stfu".

I'm just not too bothered by my kill not deleting the little badge by the enemies name. I still know that I've contributed, without having a visual cue (that is almost always replaced within minutes anyway), to show it.

Bare in mind, it was 60% before it got multiple buffs aimed at CC, while it was already fine in FL. It stands to reason that if it keeps getting buffs in CC, it probably doesn't need that 60% in FL anymore.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Bare in mind, it was 60% before it got multiple buffs aimed at CC, while it was already fine in FL. It stands to reason that if it keeps getting buffs in CC, it probably doesn't need that 60% in FL anymore.

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Another major reason people started complaining about Viper in Frontline after Patch 7.5 is because the job directly pressures the long standing “ranged superiority” environment that weaker players on NA/EU Frontlines have been benefiting from for years.

Ever since the PvP overhaul in Patch 5.4 removed diminishing returns, NA/EU Frontline gradually developed a large population of weak players sitting almost exclusively on ranged jobs.
Frontline scoreboards also reinforce this illusion of effectiveness because constant AoE poke damage inflates numbers and makes players look more impactful than they actually are.
Because there’s no diminishing return anymore, these players can freely sit in the Horde Stompede, spam AoEs nonstop, farm assists, pad damage, and avoid learning proper positioning or engagement timing the way melee players have to.
The Battle High changes in 5.4 also pushed this even further.
Now they can stack Battle High through tunnel vision AoE spam while feeling “useful” because the scoreboard rewards hitting many targets regardless of actual fight impact.

That’s exactly why Viper became such a problem for them after patch 7.5 becuase Snake Scales directly punishes mindless AoE spam.
Ranged players keep feeding hits into it, and Backlash under Hardened Scales retaliates with a 12,000 potency strike right back into their face.
With the new Bloodbath interactions and permanent Battle High scaling, that retaliation becomes even more threatening.

Meanwhile, experienced melee players usually aren’t affected nearly as much because they already understand target discipline and engagement control.
In a ranged dominated environment, only stronger players consistently stick to melee jobs anyway.
Good melee players will simply avoid wasting damage into Snake Scales.
The ranged blob players, on the other hand, will often keep spamming AoE into it without thinking and then wonder why they suddenly explode.

Premades should ONLY be allowed to play with other premades.

Just like with tanks, I stopped targeting Vipers, 60% dmg reduction is insane.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

And, anyway, that same privilege of keeping BH applies to me also. If I'm playing solo MNK in Shatter to counter a DRK premade, the first few LBs might be no issue. But once the first few vokes are disrupted, it can happen that the premade sets someone to focus on stopping me stopping them, and the attempts become far more risky. I always continued to try either way - 1 death is better than a team wipe, but keeping my BH is a nice way to try to prevent even that.

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I played MNK a lot specifically to mess with DRK premades, often even swapped mid game to it even though it meant losing my whole BH doing so (which was the stupidest stuff we had to deal with, that's what they should have changed instead of their BH changes). Having high BH or any BH at all on that job was barely a bonus, icing on the cake as a reward, but it was literally not needed. Meteodrive or RoW never required BH to mess up with high value or threat targets.

Therefore keeeping BH on MNK is literally irrelevant. What was relevant was removing THEIR BH. It wouldn't stop them from comboing pull in / guard removal / AoE rampage on casual chaff and mowing down teams, but it would make them a lot less lethal at doing it, because they actually needed their own alliance support to do it in openers with no BH, where with BH5 everywhere they could almost do it on their own core group, especially once Rampage/Diabro was introduced.

So yeah role actions. Just when people started to get more okay with the mode and premade combo abuse (which again, I have supported teamplay since forever), we get role actions back in the game which is in theory a great thing with agency and choices to fit one's own playstyle, only for what we get to literally bring back the game into even more broken combo abuse using rampage and rampart to not only become incredibly hard to even kill but also to mow down entire alliances even more easily. That was already middlefinger to solo players, but then we get BH that doesn't drop anymore.

It's not us that it's helping. It's them. I don't need BH to delete high threat players, I need jobs with specific CC toolkits to do the job. Them, they don't technically need BH either, but having BH will multiply their power on a quadratic scale.

Edit: I'll say one thing though, the BH change definitely helps solo as well on specific jobs that do benefit a lot from BH5: MCH, SCH, casters to name a few.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

As someone who also usually plays either solo or with 1 other friend, I have no clue where you get the idea it's "get in a premade yourself or stfu".

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I've seen it thrown around in older anti premade threats, not to me but to people that actually wanted group play banned back then (because of DRK combos abuses messing with casuals).

I didn't really feel pressure by that since I was doing fine on my own. Until now, because it's not the people telling me to just get in a premade myself, it's the game and its new balance and features, actually.