Not every job needs an Evolved Mode: Monk

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Based off of DRG requiring you to press 3 positionals every one and a half minutes, I don't think monk will fare much better. For comparison, I used to press 3 positionals in back-to-back GCDs in endwalker as dragoon. This level of gameplay is just sad ... People are rightfully freaking out about WHM, too, with the removal of the DoT upkeep that people messed up a lot, to not being LITERALLY a one button glare spammer ... which is instant cast, removing the hardest part about doing damage as a healer: movement.

While there may be more that we will see, these changes just demonstrate a certain direction the jobs are going. While the plan to lower the skill floor is fine, how they're going on about it is bringing the entire ceiling down with it.

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Question: Why and how is it beneficial to the game/players that White Mage has a "Hard Part about doing Damage as a healer"? Why is it necessary for the White Mage to have their damage be a pain point? How does that enhance the fantasy of playing a White Mage?

For the one job where you get like 90% of the rotation lit up for you?
Like seriously...

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Originally Posted by Dreegan

Question: Why and how is it beneficial to the game/players that White Mage has a "Hard Part about doing Damage as a healer"? Why is it necessary for the White Mage to have their damage be a pain point? How does that enhance the fantasy of playing a White Mage?

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because it adds a layer of risk vs reward that makes it fun? I like having limitations to a kit to have me think about managing my resources in order to play optimally.

Current WHM's instant casts are GlareIV, Dia, and Afflatus spells, all of which have some sort of limit to their usage, so you have to consider which one of these are available when you want to move or weave a bunch of oGCDs at once, sometimes weighing overhealing for movement and risking not having a lily for when you do need to heal (which if you end up needing to heal, you just use a casted heal and live with the loss). What we've been shown of Evolved WHM has close to none of that to consider.

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Originally Posted by Dreegan

Question: Why and how is it beneficial to the game/players that White Mage has a "Hard Part about doing Damage as a healer"? Why is it necessary for the White Mage to have their damage be a pain point? How does that enhance the fantasy of playing a White Mage?

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Every job needs something to make it interesting to master. You're talking about something entirely different, which is class fantasy, when I am talking about job depth. You CAN make healing something that adds depth, but I guarantee that will make most people complain even more about how the game is too hard, because doing poorly in healing means people die, doing poorly in damage means that you just contributed less damage. The former is far more toxic, too.

It's also how healers have been in this game, even in heavensboomer-era. You still tried to maximize your damage potential. Healer role in this game is far different than in other MMOs, and I tend to like it personally how different healing is in this game. You think that healers should only heal, or x% heal, where as I think healer is just a support meant to keep the party alive while contributing damage. The biggest reason people struggled on M11S was because most healers suck at doing damage, or rather ... suck at managing their CDs and movement.

My biggest gripe with job design now if how much bloat and redundancy exists for some jobs.

I usually point out MCH as the pain point as I use 40 buttons on my XHB layout for every job, and MCH is the only job I actually removed a skill entirely off my bar (crossbow, because it STILL doesn't refresh either check, which are both AOE now) because I have so many buttons copied between my AOE and Single Target pages thanks to the heat system being so fundamental to both rotations. All while MCH is infamous for having AOE and Single target rotations being bafflingly different.

It's a janky AF job that I got super attached to in ShB and knowing it's FINALLY getting fully overhauled is an exciting prospect.

But I've been on a PCT kick the past few weeks and even IT has a bunch of extraneous buttons. Why is the hammer split between 3 buttons? Or landscape motif between 2? It would function identically if those particular buttons were merged but I guess the job be fully functional with so few buttons before doubling down on Evolved's redesigns felt sketchy looking to the devs.

Every existing job is getting an Evolved mode and retaining their "Reborn" mode.

That being said, I think MNK incorporates a lot of "Evolved mode" design already. MNK is one of the few jobs that is feature complete at 50-60 and just kind of builds on that foundation from 60-100.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

Every existing job is getting an Evolved mode and retaining their "Reborn" mode.

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Well, the reborn mode won't be the same, except for tanks, since they removed 2 mins from reborn as well. Samurai doesn't have to think about gauge pooling, anything that has 2 charges can be spent instantly rather than managing them for downtime phases or for upcoming 2 mins. So, saying that people can just keep playing as they were is not really the case.

Reborn mode will also be gone, because why else would they make evolved do more damage? They're phasing it out, but are afraid of a SW: Galaxies situation where everyone got super mad at the redesign.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Well, the reborn mode won't be the same, except for tanks, since they removed 2 mins from reborn as well. Samurai doesn't have to think about gauge pooling, anything that has 2 charges can be spent instantly rather than managing them for downtime phases or for upcoming 2 mins. So, saying that people can just keep playing as they were is not really the case.

Reborn mode will also be gone, because why else would they make evolved do more damage? They're phasing it out, but are afraid of a SW: Galaxies situation where everyone got super mad at the redesign.

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- Removing brotherhood doesn't change anything for MNK except less chakras I guess.
- There's no confirmation that long cooldowns will be removed
- There's no confirmation about anything you've said about SAM
- They've already said there might be scenarios where Reborn mode might do more damage, but Evolved mode is generally stronger. Along with that, its most likely a <10% damage difference and unless you're a week 1 raider/ world racer its going to be completely irrelevant. Just play what you like. People trying to clear week 1 savage are going to trend towards the meta regardless of Reborn/Evolved mode coming to be.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

- There's no confirmation that long cooldowns will be removed
- There's no confirmation about anything you've said about SAM
- They've already said there might be scenarios where Reborn mode might do more damage, but Evolved mode is generally stronger. Along with that, its most likely a <10% damage difference and unless you're a week 1 raider/ world racer its going to be completely irrelevant. Just play what you like. People trying to clear week 1 savage are going to trend towards the meta regardless of Reborn/Evolved mode coming to be.

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The entire fanfest presentation about 2 mins was how bad they were, and how they are removing 2 min party buffs from the game, including reborn mode.

Why would SAM need to pool gauge, or hold their Tsubame Gaeshi, if party buffs do not exist? You just spend them as you please.

They said overall, when asked which was stronger, that evolved would have a slight advantage. The whole mention of scenarios where reborn will be stronger is because they are not sure how jobs will synergize with certain bosses; it is not a design philosophy that they plan to have reborn strong in some fights, and evolved in others. However, it is their design philosophy to make evolved stronger, because they want people to play it. You're also completely missing out why I mentioned damage differences, it's because of their intent to migrate people to evolved, and the easiest way is to make it just be better. Once people have made the transition, it will be less painful to remove Reborn mode, because I doubt they want to be balancing/designing 2x as many jobs.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

The entire fanfest presentation about 2 mins was how bad they were, and how they are removing 2 min party buffs from the game, including reborn mode.

Why would SAM need to pool gauge, or hold their Tsubame Gaeshi, if party buffs do not exist? You just spend them as you please.

They said overall, when asked which was stronger, that evolved would have a slight advantage. The whole mention of scenarios where reborn will be stronger is because they are not sure how jobs will synergize with certain bosses; it is not a design philosophy that they plan to have reborn strong in some fights, and evolved in others. However, it is their design philosophy to make evolved stronger, because they want people to play it. You're also completely missing out why I mentioned damage differences, it's because of their intent to migrate people to evolved, and the easiest way is to make it just be better. Once people have made the transition, it will be less painful to remove Reborn mode, because I doubt they want to be balancing/designing 2x as many jobs.

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You'd still be holding at some point for your pot window unless they're removing pots. We still kind of have to see what they plan for things like BRDs Radiant Finale, and how AST and DNC will play.

Yes, they're trying to incentivize people to use evolved mode, but Reborn mode will exist for at least all of Evercold. It will probably exist the expansion after that as well depending on how things go. We'll have to see how good/bad evolved mode ends up being or how many people continue to play in Reborn mode