Evolved Jobs-- Support Tanks?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If I was understanding correctly forced MT and OT only happens in evolved mode. If you play on Reborn mode your tank can do either role.

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You're right. I think the general perspective, though, is that at some point in the future (maybe even 9.0) the Evolved version will be all that is available for all jobs and not just the new ones. This is even more likely to be the case if the Evolved versions become the meta choice or just end up with a big enough percentage of the player base using them. There's also the chance that once fights start getting designed around having a dedicated main tank and a dedicated off tank you may essentially have to end up choosing Evolved (or the MT and OT designation will be forced by the devs onto Reborn mode too).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Bit of a "wait and see". The damage difference may very much be just within 1-1.5% anyways, which isn't necessarily a big gap anyhow. Maybe different ways of skill expression emerge for R-actions and E-actions and you may be running different modes for different content. WAR-R and WAR-E may both be quite strong in 8.X in their own way, and a WAR-E can still potentially be played like a main tank. I mean, off-tanks had to take enmity from their main tank before and solve busters and MT-relative mechanics as well. I doubt they will make it "that" different.

Not directed at you, but I do want to stress that this is the guy who designed our PvP kits since at minimum Crystalline Conflict era. Considering those kits were quite well received for their conveyance of job identity and power fantasy, I believe it is fair to let him have a proper shot at Evolved action system.

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Yeah I understand its probably like a 1% difference, but the way people in high end already treat the minimal difference between tanks right now is what's making me particularly doomer about it, as someone that mostly engages with that content (and likes to shoot for higher damage regardless of job). Even right now as is, WAR is held back by how Thrill functions in high end content in comparison to other tanks "equivalent" cooldowns which is also making me concerned about WAR-E's cooldowns. It's definitely wait and see though, but I'm really hoping they don't stick with this path since already a lot of folks are making assumptions

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Yeah, I do think that having a designated Main Tank and a designated Off Tank could allow for some interesting fight design (and potentially more specialist tank game play moments which tanks have been clamouring for for a long time), but locking the designation by specific job feels like a bad move. It would be better if you could choose or toggle at the start of a duty with the job skills/abilities functioning differently based on what role you choose.

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It might not be a problem if each tank has their own unique gimmick to handling different scenarios of different things that they can specialize in. Sort of like PvP, where each tank is very strong, but strong in very different ways. I wonder how well they will be able to translate the job individuality into PvE though. If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

If the DPS gap isn't that big, meta is really subjective as it can only determine how well you can perform with that job's skill expressions or how good it feels in relative comparison. With jobs having more unique individualized skills compared to the Reborn version (like Bard's new dash or DRG's untargetable jump), I think the separation will be interesting to see because DPS could be not the end-all reason for taking a PLD over a GNB for instance in certain parts of a fight (they did say more mechanics happening faster too). With a removal of 2 min rotation timers, DPS might actually take a backseat in favor for more specialized job interactions to emphasize their individual strengths according to the encounter, and those varied job specific interactions might be what makes the encounters feel good over just meta dps options. Plus, it could mean every party composition tackles the fights slightly differently, unless they revert back to the Reborn skill version.

I'm going to wait and see, but still hopeful.

Too sad that it won't matter for 95% of the game.

Brother why? they could just make healer like current tanks in 7.0 not the reverse. Now ive to fight for a war or gbn to off tank, meanwhile pld and new tank got main tank spot for free hell nah man.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

It might not be a problem if each tank has their own unique gimmick to handling different scenarios of different things that they can specialize in.

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I don't want my tank (warrior) to end up on the floor if the boss (fatebreaker) rolls his tankbuster high and my cotank forgot to give me his short mit under the pretence that I play a tank (warrior) that is perceived as strong in content where kits don't matter anyway (dungeons) while other tanks don't need the help and will survive the same hit from reasonably to straight up comfortably, it's already a problem and depending on the direction these changes take it's gonna be worse

On top of that the actual numbers and mechanics won't matter if the split is player enforced the same way many parties enforce having two melees to this day when it's a well known fact you not only don't gain anything from having a second one but you might be depriving the party from a better dps that just happens to have more gear / enjoy playing something like BLM more

In addition, if the differences are truly notable we might end up having a disproportionate amount of tanks playing one or the other making PFs hard to fill, it's never fun to wait for over an hour trying to fill a TOP party waiting for a shield healer

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

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While that's true for now there's a fair chance that this won't always be the case considering they told us the new jobs wouldn't have those, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those kits to end up being phased out for the expansion after the next one when they realize maintaining and trying to keep 40+ effective jobs is taking a ton of time that they would probably rather spend elsewhere

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

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The issue is with new jobs not getting a Reborn playstyle at all, and the admission that they will be making the Evolved style the more effective one going forward it implies that Reborn combat is likely to be left without meaningful development in the future and will probably be dropped at a later date to simplify development.

I seriously hope they reconsider. I don't want to be stuck playing an old combat mode just because I want to continue playing Warrior MT like I always have.

I don't see any actual disadvantage to an "off-tank" being the main tank, except that Paladins will lose damage due to not counterattacking as much, although they could work around it by Covering a lot.

I'm not thrilled about this personally as a PLD Main I like being able to both MT and OT not being forced into one role.

Opposite issue i had with SHB where pld was forced into OT due to being a awful MT. I really don't like this.