Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

Alright. Let's go over this from your perspective then since you're not even bothering to read.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You still have to use at least the Last Dance you'll generate prior to enter the burst (from Standard Step), else it'll get overwritten by Finishing. It's only the second one you'll get from Finishing that you can afford to drift outside of the window if you get enough Sabre.

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On opener? Yes. You have to do that within the first 3 GCDs. Otherwise? It's debatable since at times you also might be having to drain your Gauge depending on your Partner in the fight just before burst if you're hitting 80. Optimally you are right provided you don't run into Famine by using it outside of Burst to prep for Burst.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If anything, DT actually re-added a modicum of decision making with Tillana even though it added yet another static nuke to the burst (DotD).

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Here's the problem: It didn't change anything from EW aside from adding that nuke. There was no decision making returned back to the player that impacted DNC's performance. The only decision you got was whether you would have to waste gauge through an RNG mechanic generated by your allies during Burst - that's not decision making. That's forced. Tillana either is used during Famine to generate the 50 Gauge, or it's saved until the end. You cannot say that Saber is prioritized over Tillana if you're right at the last GCD of your burst. If you overcap? Well shit, you lost potency and has no reflection on a player's skill handling that. That's bad design. Already on activation of Technical Step we get DotD as is, so we're already going to be pressing the button anyway to dump gauge.

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Originally Posted by Valence

So far I do think that when people overcap, that's in most cases because they fucked up somewhere. The "conflict" happens from doing everything correctly when having enough Sabre to fill up all remaining slots of the burst without overcapping AND pushing Tillana out. But as said above, this means your burst was crazy good already and you prioritizing Sabre over Tillana was a gain and most likely optimal due to avoiding overcaps.

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I feel like you're overlooking the core aspect of DNC and arguing in the wrong direction. If you're saying that it's because the player messed up something in their gauge management, which mind, is determined by their own base GCDs and ally attack GCD frequency, that's not their fault. You cannot say that this is the DNC player's fault when they have resources forced upon them by their Partner or the Party if they're already hitting their GCDs and pressing Saber to drain gauge properly. The instance in where you are saying you push out Tillana is wrong because Tillana is 600 plus the 50 Gauge in a whole GCD. That's 60 more potency than Saber draining resources under raid buff. As said above, I will repeat it again: Tillana cannot be left out of burst and at most be used at the end as the last GCD in the burst to make the most use out of potency, Gauge overcapping or not.

Every 10 Gauge overcapped is an 108 potency loss, and there's not a lot the DNC can do about that other than their own GCD and Gauge Management.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Remember pre EW BRD? The amount of overcapping from rng spikes was completely crazy and imo that was fine as well, because the spikes felt good and you tried to make the most out of it. Was I complaining in AoE situations because I was generating more procs than I could spend? Not really, it was hilariously fun.

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I do because I played BRD during that time. RNG Spikes were nice, but let me remind you of something BRD has that DNC doesn't - Resource Generation involving oGCDs. Bloodletter? That's an oGCD that's generated by Mage's Ballad. Pitch Perfect? oGCD generated during Wanderer's Minuet. It felt good because you could continue your rotation without having to manage your GCDs down to the point it is causing a loss because you aren't spending fast enough.

DNC cannot spend fast enough if their luck is too good and they get slammed with resource generation. All of DNC's Spenders are GCD. The difference is night and day. You cannot compare Feathers either because those are self-generated. The issue I am pinpointing at, and that you have glossed over is the fact that DNC cannot control its own Gauge generation like other jobs can, and the fact we've been given a 50 Gauge Generation Tool is not helping matters due to the fluctuation of RNG when paired with a Partner plus an 8-man party. In 4-man? This is understandable because you have less generation sources during burst.

In 8-man it is insufferable because you are taking a loss if you cannot spend fast enough with a 2.5s GCD. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

Edit: One other thing - I did a quick comb over the other jobs, and guess what? They either manage their own gauge by themselves, or have set timers. That makes DNC even more of an outlier and highlights this problem even further. "Sandpapering" something down isn't the point either that you have a tendency to reference. Making a pain point in the job visible is the point because it does not feel good to lose potency you didn't generate in the first place.

Hopefully DNC's Tillana gets its QoL. MNK had to deal with the issue of overcapping over no fault of their own with Brotherhood before DT. It took 3 expansions before they decided to fix what should have been an obvious issue.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Here's the problem: It didn't change anything from EW aside from adding that nuke. There was no decision making returned back to the player that impacted DNC's performance. The only decision you got was whether you would have to waste gauge through an RNG mechanic generated by your allies during Burst - that's not decision making. That's forced. Tillana either is used during Famine to generate the 50 Gauge, or it's saved until the end. You cannot say that Saber is prioritized over Tillana if you're right at the last GCD of your burst. If you overcap? Well shit, you lost potency and has no reflection on a player's skill handling that. That's bad design. Already on activation of Technical Step we get DotD as is, so we're already going to be pressing the button anyway to dump gauge.

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You can go all passive aggressive you want and tell me I'm not reading, but it's clear you aren't either when you reply to me that Tillana didn't change anything between EW and DT. Everything that you describe is literally what I explained, and the kind of decision making you have to do on the fly in DT that was just not a thing back in EW, specifically because Tillana didn't generate any gauge and could be used whenever outside of "forced" used of Sabre as you say. There was no constraint and no friction from it, the only constraint came from Esprit generation and Sabre uses not to overcap. If you add another ability that generates (a lot of) gauge like DT Tillana, this adds a second layer of constraints to play around.

In EW Tillana didn't add any gauge so it was a no brainer to use. The only thing you wanted to do was entering burst with a lot of gauge to get more Sabres in. You can still do this in DT but this means pushing Tillana further down the line. DT Tillana is also a way to regulate bad esprit rng (especially in light parties).

But I just disagree with your definition of "decision making" because deciding between dumping gauge on Sabre or using something else like Starfall, Tillana and whatnot, is decision making on the fly to me. If that's not to you, then priority systems aren't decision making. I do agree there is a difference between choosing one of two options that aren't related to priority/triaging, and picking something that has higher priority than something else, but you won't find the former in the current pve model anyway. Both are a form of decision making and agency to me, because as soon as something requires you to think instead of blindly following a static rotation, that's agency to me.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I feel like you're overlooking the core aspect of DNC and arguing in the wrong direction. If you're saying that it's because the player messed up something in their gauge management, which mind, is determined by their own base GCDs and ally attack GCD frequency, that's not their fault. You cannot say that this is the DNC player's fault when they have resources forced upon them by their Partner or the Party if they're already hitting their GCDs and pressing Saber to drain gauge properly. The instance in where you are saying you push out Tillana is wrong because Tillana is 600 plus the 50 Gauge in a whole GCD. That's 60 more potency than Saber draining resources under raid buff. As said above, I will repeat it again: Tillana cannot be left out of burst and at most be used at the end as the last GCD in the burst to make the most use out of potency, Gauge overcapping or not.

Every 10 Gauge overcapped is an 108 potency loss, and there's not a lot the DNC can do about that other than their own GCD and Gauge Management.

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You deal with the hand you're being dealt. How you choose to use this hand, and how to spend said variable resources, is agency, and this agency means you can mess something up. As I exposed above the probability for you to overcap as long as you dump GCD into Sabres is extremely, insanely unlikely to happen. Therefore it becomes an active decision to identify the proper spots in the burst where to use moves that don't dump any gauge.

The gauge you gain from Tillana, if used outside the burst, isn't wasted, because you already had rng providing the gauge you required to spam Sabre during burst in the first place. You say it yourself, you're losing 108 potency of Sabres per 10 gauge, which is way more than the 60 potency difference you'd get from Tillana. Using Tillana in the very last GCD of Technical/burst is as you say a lot safer already because odds of overcapping there are a lot lower since the party wide esprit generation will drop.

So I really don't see where the problem is, and if you really have to move Tillana out, then move it out?

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I do because I played BRD during that time. RNG Spikes were nice, but let me remind you of something BRD has that DNC doesn't - Resource Generation involving oGCDs. Bloodletter? That's an oGCD that's generated by Mage's Ballad. Pitch Perfect? oGCD generated during Wanderer's Minuet. It felt good because you could continue your rotation without having to manage your GCDs down to the point it is causing a loss because you aren't spending fast enough.

DNC cannot spend fast enough if their luck is too good and they get slammed with resource generation. All of DNC's Spenders are GCD. The difference is night and day. You cannot compare Feathers either because those are self-generated. The issue I am pinpointing at, and that you have glossed over is the fact that DNC cannot control its own Gauge generation like other jobs can, and the fact we've been given a 50 Gauge Generation Tool is not helping matters due to the fluctuation of RNG when paired with a Partner plus an 8-man party. In 4-man? This is understandable because you have less generation sources during burst.

In 8-man it is insufferable because you are taking a loss if you cannot spend fast enough with a 2.5s GCD. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

Edit: One other thing - I did a quick comb over the other jobs, and guess what? They either manage their own gauge by themselves, or have set timers. That makes DNC even more of an outlier and highlights this problem even further. "Sandpapering" something down isn't the point either that you have a tendency to reference. Making a pain point in the job visible is the point because it does not feel good to lose potency you didn't generate in the first place.

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Yes it was OGCD, but the generation could be a lot crazier, especially in the later tiers with itemization, and the cap was reached a LOT faster, because PP is 3 stacks and Bloodletter still had no fucking stacks. That it was an OGCD was irrelevant because recasting the same still is 1s minimum anyway (added to the unpredictable proc refresh and no proper queue without charges): in reality you were just dealing with shorter, faster windows with the same kind of overcap concerns.

As I said above I do believe that DNC can spend fast enough because odds of generating over 50 gauge under a GCD are almost irrelevant (1%). That's why I'm saying, maybe you're the one not reading?

I do not know how to make this clearer either. If you're actually arguing that not controlling your own gauge generation is bad, then be my guest, remove it from the identity of the job and make it a standard gauge that fills up with whatever crap that comes only from the job, be it autos, GCDs, or whatever. Not like we already have jobs like this in the game right. BRD also used to not control their own gauge generation since it was rng tied to their dots. Today it's been watered down to a very boring, shadow of itself system where most ticks are predictable on a fixed 3s rate, thanks to ShB then EW.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You can go all passive aggressive you want and tell me I'm not reading, but it's clear you aren't either when you reply to me that Tillana didn't change anything between EW and DT. Everything that you describe is literally what I explained, and the kind of decision making you have to do on the fly in DT that was just not a thing back in EW, specifically because Tillana didn't generate any gauge and could be used whenever outside of "forced" used of Sabre as you say. There was no constraint and no friction from it, the only constraint came from Esprit generation and Sabre uses not to overcap. If you add another ability that generates (a lot of) gauge like DT Tillana, this adds a second layer of constraints to play around.

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And that's where we have a problem, Valence. That's what I've been trying to explain the whole time that we didn't need a second layer. As I said previously, fixed values do not work on RNG Jobs. Also, mind, that I did some digging in the forums before and I have been reading your replies during this thread. I looked at it from your point of view - and even if Tillana didn't generate gauge in EW, that wasn't a bad thing. Tillana doing that damage in EW was fine, but it only threw a wrench in things when you also have to consider that DNC's burst got busier through the addition of Last Dance. It was already busy enough during 2m Window, they didn't need to throw a wrench into a job that has RNG involved as its core mechanic since ShB. Do you think it's braindead? Probably for most DNC that play the job. If they wanted to regulate really bad Esprit RNG, then maybe that's on the DNC to be able to have resources on hand before the window? You've got Filler options and a lot to do provided you've been keeping up on Feathers, since you'd then get Tillana, Starfall, Last Dance, and your 2 Filler GCDs if things go bad - which goes without saying if you're setting up correctly, you'll have at least 30 gauge to guarantee DotD. That's 5 GCDs and half your burst window if things go bad.

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Originally Posted by Valence

But I just disagree with your definition of "decision making" because deciding between dumping gauge on Sabre or using something else like Starfall, Tillana and whatnot, is decision making on the fly to me. If that's not to you, then priority systems aren't decision making. I do agree there is a difference between choosing one of two options that aren't related to priority/triaging, and picking something that has higher priority than something else, but you won't find the former in the current pve model anyway. Both are a form of decision making and agency to me, because as soon as something requires you to think instead of blindly following a static rotation, that's agency to me.

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...that's crazy that you're disagreeing what we're agreeing on with your first sentence. The decision making is already there - we didn't need an extra component in Tillana to make things even stricter, and mind, people a year ago complained the exact same argument I'm making now. You can check back in the DPS forums for that since I saw you were involved as well.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The gauge you gain from Tillana, if used outside the burst, isn't wasted, because you already had rng providing the gauge you required to spam Sabre during burst in the first place. You say it yourself, you're losing 108 potency of Sabres per 10 gauge, which is way more than the 60 potency difference you'd get from Tillana. Using Tillana in the very last GCD of Technical/burst is as you say a lot safer already because odds of overcapping there are a lot lower since the party wide esprit generation will drop.

So I really don't see where the problem is, and if you really have to move Tillana out, then move it out?

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It's worth a try, but most times you will see people hitting it within burst window because that's where your potency goes up. I personally think it's just jarring compared to how DNC has felt in the past that you're now pushing something generated by a raid buff out when your luck is too good and it messes with the generalized idea that has been cemented for a while now to "use all your big damage in burst". You see that across just about every job and they don't struggle with this like DNC does when they're designed in DT.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yes it was OGCD, but the generation could be a lot crazier, especially in the later tiers with itemization, and the cap was reached a LOT faster, because PP is 3 stacks and Bloodletter still had no fucking stacks. That it was an OGCD was irrelevant because recasting the same still is 1s minimum anyway (added to the unpredictable proc refresh and no proper queue without charges): in reality you were just dealing with shorter, faster windows with the same kind of overcap concerns.

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Yet, good BRDs knew at the time which song generated what, meaning they'd keep an eye out on Bloodletter resets so they can spam the crap out of it. The same was for Pitch Perfect, and knowing when to dump sub-3 stacks going into Mages. The difference between these two is you're managing one thing at a time next to your GCD depending on what song you were in - not having to manage four at once in a burst sequence. Can it be a puzzle? Perhaps, but it already was one when you had to think on managing your gauge in the first place. If you really think it's so brainless of a job, then perhaps you'd like to explain that to the populace at large when it really isn't in high-end.

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Originally Posted by Valence

As I said above I do believe that DNC can spend fast enough because odds of generating over 50 gauge under a GCD are almost irrelevant (1%). That's why I'm saying, maybe you're the one not reading?

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No, I read - but I did manage to get some second opinions on it. So, that 1% you're talking about? Let's say you're at the median which would be about 20-30 during Burst if you're having moderate generation and you just used Saber. Seeing as you're in a good spot to use Tillana, you use it right away - that leaves a 20 gauge gap if used at 30. However, consider that your comp has jobs like VPR, NIN, MNK or SAM involved. Or even a mix of any of the four(mind with only 2 Melee as standard). These three jobs have GCDs that are faster than other jobs. NIN has this by default at Lv 45. Let's say you also have the VPR or SAM set as your Partner. Considering the fact we already have reset our Standard, I forgot to add into my thoughts the extra 10 that is generated off of Standard's buff alone, which is standalone next to Technical during raid buff. So, instead of the range being 0-70, it becomes 0-80 without the player's input due to your partner double-dipping. This further cements the problem with Tillana - +50 gauge was never needed in the first place and is just tacked on while we still have the same decision-making process as you've declared multiple times. Also include that both SAM/VPR/NIN/MNK GCDs are close to 2s, and you have even more generation than normal in a standard comp. Casters such as BLM and RDM also attribute to this because of hastened GCDs during Leylines and Melee Combo during burst. Put that together, and you have a literal engine that won't stop most of the time when it comes to gauge generation.

But, to make it simple, just ignore the Casters and focus on the Melee - them alone is more than enough for gauge generation to potentially unless you have a DRG in the party filling a slot.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do not know how to make this clearer either. If you're actually arguing that not controlling your own gauge generation is bad, then be my guest, remove it from the identity of the job and make it a standard gauge that fills up with whatever crap that comes only from the job, be it autos, GCDs, or whatever. Not like we already have jobs like this in the game right. BRD also used to not control their own gauge generation since it was rng tied to their dots. Today it's been watered down to a very boring, shadow of itself system where most ticks are predictable on a fixed 3s rate, thanks to ShB then EW.

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And that's where you're missing the point. The whole argument is about Tillana in the first place attributing +50 Gauge. It messes with DNC's burst window and while it is useful in 4-man, when it comes to 8-man it's a nuisance to use because you're generating more gauge than you can do - and even if you use it in a whole GCD, you will still get more gauge. Perhaps you'd like to tell me the chances of getting 0 gauge instead over 2 GCDs? Because that's generally the length it takes if you're managing your gauge properly during burst. Did I ever suggest that DNC should be standalone on its gauge? No. I have not. And in regards to the gauge being 'forced' before, again that is directing it all towards the reasoning why Tillana should not generate Gauge.

It. Makes. No. Sense. If I were to play the game with Tillana with the 50 Gauge removed, we would still have the same sequences but better because then you could use Tillana as a stronger filler in the burst. That's really the only thing that would change and it would not attribute towards DNC losing potency. Instead, they can direct that 540 across DNC's basic GCDs to stabilize their damage. If we're talking about opener though, I can see where the problem lies with that: DotD requires 50 gauge to use. That was the dev's intended use of Tillana being +50 Gauge - but it also harms the bursts coming after because you're either flooded with gauge or you just don't have room to deal with 2 GCDs worth of Generation to use Tillana proper. If they really wanted to, they would have DNC start with 50 Gauge upon entry of a Duty. Simple as that. It would prevent you from not being able to use DotD on opener in every case scenario. Even then, going into later bursts, you still have your Flourish filler to use if you really have to.

Speaking from the perspective of a ‘lay-dancer’ with limited experience of the minutiae of output optimisation (which ironically is who the game is designed for apparently), I do find Tilana giving gauge usually ends in overcap. It’s not even that I don’t care I just forget to dump before using it since again, limited experience lol.

But then, I can understand the perspective of ‘maybe if it’s ok since there’s ways to adjust’ argument too. The developers do have a tendency to go nuclear when it comes to these sort of things, so I can see where the worry that removing it would cause Dancer to become less engaging to optimise (which is a genuine thing jobs should have).

Then again, the real question is ‘should it be designed for people like me in the first place’ lol. Is it fair to adjust a job based on the opinions of people who like a job but don’t play it to a high level? The people in this case being me lol not making accusations.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Speaking from the perspective of a ‘lay-dancer’ with limited experience of the minutiae of output optimisation (which ironically is who the game is designed for apparently), I do find Tilana giving gauge usually ends in overcap. It’s not even that I don’t care I just forget to dump before using it since again, limited experience lol.

But then, I can understand the perspective of ‘maybe if it’s ok since there’s ways to adjust’ argument too. The developers do have a tendency to go nuclear when it comes to these sort of things, so I can see where the worry that removing it would cause Dancer to become less engaging to optimise (which is a genuine thing jobs should have).

Then again, the real question is ‘should it be designed for people like me in the first place’ lol. Is it fair to adjust a job based on the opinions of people who like a job but don’t play it to a high level? The people in this case being me lol not making accusations.

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I mean, I've been considering my argument for your end. That's a different aspect of why Tillana shouldn't add 50 gauge since most players aren't going to care whether it adds 50 or not. They'll press it during burst.

Bro I hate job oversimplification too but this is actually a good qol request. It's not interesting decision making it's bad design. If you think not fudiging a rotation to cope with a badly designed mechanic interesting decision making then you are coping over how little of that actually exists. This isn't stormblood anymore we dont have to plan or troubadour on bard or do whatever summoner did back then.

Changes where jobs actually lost skill expression was the deletion and reworking of that button that converted sen to kenki. The loss of Dragoons entire gauge and eyes from stormblood. Black mage having timers, tank aggro being made way easier to manage.

Making tillana grant "skilll ready" like arcane circle or ikoshoten just makes sense and makes learning different dps feel more intuitive. Jobs shouldn't feel identical but jobs within a role should have fundamentals they can share.

Example people were mad all tanks have gap closer cuz it made dark knight less special but the role as a whole is objectively better with gap closer si ce it's good for grouping mobs in dungeons and reposistiong the boss in time.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Bro I hate job oversimplification too but this is actually a good qol request. It's not interesting decision making it's bad design. If you think not fudiging a rotation to cope with a badly designed mechanic interesting decision making then you are coping over how little of that actually exists. This isn't stormblood anymore we dont have to plan or troubadour on bard or do whatever summoner did back then.

Changes where jobs actually lost skill expression was the deletion and reworking of that button that converted sen to kenki. The loss of Dragoons entire gauge and eyes from stormblood. Black mage having timers, tank aggro being made way easier to manage.

Making tillana grant "skilll ready" like arcane circle or ikoshoten just makes sense and makes learning different dps feel more intuitive. Jobs shouldn't feel identical but jobs within a role should have fundamentals they can share.

Example people were mad all tanks have gap closer cuz it made dark knight less special but the role as a whole is objectively better with gap closer si ce it's good for grouping mobs in dungeons and reposistiong the boss in time.

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See, I don't agree with that because we have the Buff Cap to consider. Either SE fixes that Buff Cap, or you need to think in a different way than applying an extra buff - not to mention, Saber changes to DotD - that's going to eat up a GCD to free up your gauge spender.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

And that's where we have a problem, Valence. That's what I've been trying to explain the whole time that we didn't need a second layer. As I said previously, fixed values do not work on RNG Jobs. Also, mind, that I did some digging in the forums before and I have been reading your replies during this thread. I looked at it from your point of view - and even if Tillana didn't generate gauge in EW, that wasn't a bad thing. Tillana doing that damage in EW was fine, but it only threw a wrench in things when you also have to consider that DNC's burst got busier through the addition of Last Dance. It was already busy enough during 2m Window, they didn't need to throw a wrench into a job that has RNG involved as its core mechanic since ShB. Do you think it's braindead? Probably for most DNC that play the job. If they wanted to regulate really bad Esprit RNG, then maybe that's on the DNC to be able to have resources on hand before the window? You've got Filler options and a lot to do provided you've been keeping up on Feathers, since you'd then get Tillana, Starfall, Last Dance, and your 2 Filler GCDs if things go bad - which goes without saying if you're setting up correctly, you'll have at least 30 gauge to guarantee DotD. That's 5 GCDs and half your burst window if things go bad.

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If you dug some forum history (you have a lot of time on your hands...) that's very possible you found one of my posts saying DNC was braindead because I do think it was very brainless in EW. Braindead idk, but brainless sure. Have enough gauge for Sabre? Pop Sabre under burst, that's about it. Very little to prioritize in burst, and the only optimization you could potentially keep doing was spooling Feathers and gauge for burst, that's about it. Compared to ShB and DT, I think that yes, EW DNC was really pushing it and only SMN managed to beat that job when it came to complexity. That's also why I didn't play it at high level back then, it felt like a snoozefest.

I wouldn't mind if we had to spool enough gauge before the burst to ensure DotD actually - even though you'd honestly rack enough esprit during Technical that it would be irrelevant anyway. Which you can still do anyway, just that once you enter into burst your next move is going to be DotD immediately to dump gauge. But yeah, I'd miss that second layer of priorities after. I'd agree though that it would still be more complex than what we had in EW precisely because there is more neutral nukes to fit in, like Last Dance and Finishing, so this definitely implies more gauge dancing.

Honestly as I said earlier in this thread I'm not fully satisfied with what Tillana does but I have no idea how to fix it without bringing something else in return to keep the burst interesting. Perhaps if Tillana instead actually consumed gauge for something awesome in return idk.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

It's worth a try, but most times you will see people hitting it within burst window because that's where your potency goes up. I personally think it's just jarring compared to how DNC has felt in the past that you're now pushing something generated by a raid buff out when your luck is too good and it messes with the generalized idea that has been cemented for a while now to "use all your big damage in burst". You see that across just about every job and they don't struggle with this like DNC does when they're designed in DT.

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Like I said, I'm pretty certain that keeping it for the very last GCD of Technical is a good safety to use since esprit generation will drop back to normal just after. Unfortunately I've retired from raiding and I have a very difficult time trying it enough because in normal content people just facepull without countdowns and Finishing always ends up occupying the last slot unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Yet, good BRDs knew at the time which song generated what, meaning they'd keep an eye out on Bloodletter resets so they can spam the crap out of it. The same was for Pitch Perfect, and knowing when to dump sub-3 stacks going into Mages. The difference between these two is you're managing one thing at a time next to your GCD depending on what song you were in - not having to manage four at once in a burst sequence. Can it be a puzzle? Perhaps, but it already was one when you had to think on managing your gauge in the first place. If you really think it's so brainless of a job, then perhaps you'd like to explain that to the populace at large when it really isn't in high-end.

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What is brainless? BRD? Which BRD? SB, SHB, EW, DT?

I don't think any of those is to be honest, and I've played one of the easiest iterations for the entirety of Endwalker in raiding. I think it's one of the most demanding rphys, and used to be a lot more than it was when songs were still on 30s with unpredictable procs. The burst was easier before EW, but the overall management was a lot harder and demanding your constant attention. And most of all, the difficulty of BRD is that you're constantly fighting the design junk of the job, between no charge empyreal, horrible clipping, or how Army's Ethos feels almsot tighter than SB MCH overheat windows. Those have been addressed in another thread by Sana Cetonis already though.

I will also fully admit that I have a very easy time with priority systems and non deterministic rotations (as long as I have my full attention to devote to them), and that's why I play those jobs in the first place. I know a lot of players that don't want to even touch those jobs because to them it's galaxybrain.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

No, I read - but I did manage to get some second opinions on it. So, that 1% you're talking about? Let's say you're at the median which would be about 20-30 during Burst if you're having moderate generation and you just used Saber. Seeing as you're in a good spot to use Tillana, you use it right away - that leaves a 20 gauge gap if used at 30. However, consider that your comp has jobs like VPR, NIN, MNK or SAM involved. Or even a mix of any of the four(mind with only 2 Melee as standard). These three jobs have GCDs that are faster than other jobs. NIN has this by default at Lv 45. Let's say you also have the VPR or SAM set as your Partner. Considering the fact we already have reset our Standard, I forgot to add into my thoughts the extra 10 that is generated off of Standard's buff alone, which is standalone next to Technical during raid buff. So, instead of the range being 0-70, it becomes 0-80 without the player's input due to your partner double-dipping. This further cements the problem with Tillana - +50 gauge was never needed in the first place and is just tacked on while we still have the same decision-making process as you've declared multiple times. Also include that both SAM/VPR/NIN/MNK GCDs are close to 2s, and you have even more generation than normal in a standard comp. Casters such as BLM and RDM also attribute to this because of hastened GCDs during Leylines and Melee Combo during burst. Put that together, and you have a literal engine that won't stop most of the time when it comes to gauge generation.

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30 gauge of margin starts getting you into serious consideration for overcap (5-8%), and once you're lower than this this actually ramps up pretty steep. Like I said I don't have clear solutions for this without losing what I consider interesting about it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

It. Makes. No. Sense. If I were to play the game with Tillana with the 50 Gauge removed, we would still have the same sequences but better because then you could use Tillana as a stronger filler in the burst. That's really the only thing that would change and it would not attribute towards DNC losing potency. Instead, they can direct that 540 across DNC's basic GCDs to stabilize their damage. If we're talking about opener though, I can see where the problem lies with that: DotD requires 50 gauge to use. That was the dev's intended use of Tillana being +50 Gauge - but it also harms the bursts coming after because you're either flooded with gauge or you just don't have room to deal with 2 GCDs worth of Generation to use Tillana proper. If they really wanted to, they would have DNC start with 50 Gauge upon entry of a Duty. Simple as that. It would prevent you from not being able to use DotD on opener in every case scenario. Even then, going into later bursts, you still have your Flourish filler to use if you really have to.

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Whatever you say then. Makes sense to me and no, the sequence consideration would become simplified since you'd use Tillana like any other basic, fixed nuke. I don't like those much and the only thing that keeps them even remotely interesting in the burst is that you have to balance them out with Sabres. But perhaps that would be enough, I'm not gonna die over that hill.

If the 50 gauge was removed, then I'd like to have something else in return for the job.

Dancer was designed to be an easy simon says jobs to get people to play phys ranged. I feel like asking dancer to be more engaging is a fair request valence as it's been 2 expansions now. Still I think that should be addressed at an expansion launch. As far as the buff cap goes im pretty sure it was only a big issue in TOP and p8s no? The fact we can reach the buff/debuff limit at all is a huge failure by the devs. It shouldn't even be something players have to consider.