PvP thoughts about Sage

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Originally Posted by Cidel

This was their attempt at creating a mostly role-agnostic queue system that doesn't entirely rely on whether enough of an equal number of tanks and healers are queued-up at the same time, or making it a matter of which team got the stronger healer.

But at least now if 9 DPS and a tank are queued, a match can be formed.

Ironically, I've frequently heard praise about how the reworked PvP jobs have more of an "identity" than their constantly homogenized PvE counterparts. Almost every job is some kind of damage dealer, yes, but how they go about it or what strategy they have to employ to function and synergize with their teammates varies. Some jobs are bruisers, others are burst-heavy executioners, some are more set-up focused, while others lean harder on support or constant pressure.

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Yeah I hate it, I prefered 4vs4. Instead of losing roles and have rng 5vs5.
I rather sit longer in queue than get a weird matchup, that only exists because SE thought PvP was too dead because of forced roles. I think frontline should have gotten forced roles too in the past. Now it is a mode where team strategy and aoe buffs/healing/synergy either dont exist or don't really matter as much anymore.

You can still have self heals, but not this MP regen potion.

Having no roles might be fun and okay for casual games, but not for ranked and competitive mode.

Yeah there is praise, but I would want this system applied to more skills than just the 5-10 each job has. But they are afraid of doing this, because of balance issues, well maybe in 8.x they make an attempt on it.
You are basically saying some deal moderate damage over longer time, some deal high dmg over a short time - yeah they are all damage dealer lol. I want tank identity to be that they are doing most of the crowdcontrol effects, to do most of aoe and single target mitigation, to help with small heals, to only have a small burst and vulnerability up debuffs. But now we have tanks that deal the most damage in a whole match. Can make their blue icon red, it wouldnt make a difference.

Many times people cried over Sage and DRK how bad they are when in reality these are classes that still retained their high skill ceiling function. DRK didn't need buffs at all, it was OK for its thing and MP changes these patch already buffed the class. So doing salted earth changes wasn't really needed but okay let's make it easier and more spammable class in CC. We all remember how Season 9 went with it. Monk buffs weren't needed but square cannot hold one minute without this class being in meta. Machinist didn't deserve buffs but hey let them go because why not. Why not let them do now 16k with shotgun and they are already an overpowered job that everyone spams in every single CC match.

Sage buffs are OK. Sage was never a pure healer but more of big dps + shields. Main issue arrives when your team doesn't know how to play and you find yourself playing with 4 anchors, here is where other healers will be simply better than you because its easier to heal a bot that is afk than not. Sage in a good hands and decent team can be pain. It doesn't need any more buffs but it should at least get some rework or thing because devs them alone don't know what to do with this class. They constantly buff / nerf it over and over again in an endless loop.

The amount of damage might not feel that much when you are against Scholar which is currently the best healer and other 2 just got hit hard for no particular reason. In any other situation, you will do good if you can play it. Your LB is also strong, specially when its overtime and enemy team has to stand in crystal. You can also bait Samurai's LB to fail.

Yeah no, I'm not going back into Feast hell where 95% of the weight in teams was on the healer. Or in FLs where the team with nobody eating the bullet and going healer would automatically lose. Haha no. You can keep this in the trashbin of history where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

Many times people cried over Sage and DRK how bad they are when in reality these are classes that still retained their high skill ceiling function. DRK didn't need buffs at all, it was OK for its thing and MP changes these patch already buffed the class. So doing salted earth changes wasn't really needed but okay let's make it easier and more spammable class in CC. We all remember how Season 9 went with it. Monk buffs weren't needed but square cannot hold one minute without this class being in meta. Machinist didn't deserve buffs but hey let them go because why not. Why not let them do now 16k with shotgun and they are already an overpowered job that everyone spams in every single CC match.

Sage buffs are OK. Sage was never a pure healer but more of big dps + shields. Main issue arrives when your team doesn't know how to play and you find yourself playing with 4 anchors, here is where other healers will be simply better than you because its easier to heal a bot that is afk than not. Sage in a good hands and decent team can be pain. It doesn't need any more buffs but it should at least get some rework or thing because devs them alone don't know what to do with this class. They constantly buff / nerf it over and over again in an endless loop.

The amount of damage might not feel that much when you are against Scholar which is currently the best healer and other 2 just got hit hard for no particular reason. In any other situation, you will do good if you can play it. Your LB is also strong, specially when its overtime and enemy team has to stand in crystal. You can also bait Samurai's LB to fail.

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I'm sure I can ask any player in the top ranks what they think of DRK in CC and they'll reply it's still the worst tank out of the 4, or that MNK actually needed something (we'll see if it is too much or not), or that MCH also needed something (even though we may disagree on what).

I love sage and main it in PvE and want to play it in PvP (frontlines) but it's just pure garbage. Low damage, poor sustain healing. It's LB is just pointless when you get pushed or pulled so far out of it that you're double it's diameter away now. IMO, You should be immune to the push/pulls while in it.

Either way, my frontlines roulette is always the last thing I do before I log out of the game because I always just leave angry and annoyed at how bad job balance is with that.

So my thoughts on Sage "as it is," I like the design and would like to keep to Kardia and having it being geared toward damage ramp. I don't think that aspect of it is bad.

My issue is that if I queue into a game and randomly get sorted into a team, if I'm the only healer, I don't have the same impact as a team with any of the other healers. They have the ability to sustain a team fight for like 10 seconds before Panhaima is gone, but no healing beyond that.

White Mage gets healing on its own button, Cure 3 when Seraph Strike is used, damage reduction on the same button, Aquaveil to reduce damage on a target, and their LB gives passive regen.

AST has on demand healing and a heal that compiles damage taken (that can literally eat a burst and heal it back).

SCH can drop the faerie for shields, has heals and shields in its LB, an on demand heal that also gives damage ramp and a Shield that can be spread to multiple targets.

Meanwhile I get Kardia and Dosis, which has very little sustain impact against bursting. It doesn't have Regens, the shield is relegated to the DoT that's independent of the heal. If the game matches based on classes at all, and it considers me a healer, my team is at a relative disadvantage. That's what I'm saying here. Sage needs more dedicated healing or some equalizer that makes it not objectively weaker at doing what it's supposed to do based on the job color.

Sage in FL is a beast if you can kardia a reliable, competent tank/DPS. I see most sages kardia themselves which is a waste of the job.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm sure I can ask any player in the top ranks what they think of DRK in CC and they'll reply it's still the worst tank out of the 4, or that MNK actually needed something (we'll see if it is too much or not), or that MCH also needed something (even though we may disagree on what).

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+2 on DRK, +2 on MNK, -2 on MCH.

MCH players get inflated elo because low ranks don't know how to guard LB. When you start running into people who can watch for LB and guard it on sight, MCH needs to start using its other tools to stay competitive. Which you aren't taught how to do when you can cheese people in metal ranks. If we had to give MCH anything, it could probably use a faster walk speed while casting. That's about it.

DRK is still hot garbage in 5's, and likely always will be so long as Plunge exist in its current state. MNK *probably* didn't get enough, but that's probably fine because MNK has a very frustrating play-pattern to begin with. If MNK is ever "good" in the way VPR and DRG are "good", everybody but the MNK is going to be miserable.