Lyse vs. Wuk Lamat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand the hyper focus on Wuk Lamat. Whether it's Koana, Zoraal Ja, Bakool Ja Ja, Ketenramm, I can't even remember Erenville's mom's name, etc. You're talking about all the same things. And the few times they do come up against challenges or have development, it's so ham fisted and cliche.

This fanbase has a weird obsession with criticizing female characters and comparing female characters.

Bakool Ja Ja gets away with releasing a deadly beast...we turn off the Endless just because Erenville's mom wants to and thinks it might help defeat Sphene (it doesn't and who would even think that?)...Zoraal Ja gets disqualified but just goes into a room and steals and artifact...dawntrail just sucks guys, I'm sorry.

---

It has nothing to do with her being female and everything to do with her taking up 99% of the screentime. Yes, Dawntrail's character writing in general sucks, but Wuk Lamat is the one that is forced on you through 30+ hours of story.

Not to mention all of the writing bends over backwards for her. It's Lyse's sudden unearned rise to power x100.

Somehow they managed to sneak an F in there. It's written Cahciua and sounds like Cuff Key Wah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

off the top of my head... KA KEE WAA? something like that? CHEE CHEE WAA?

---

It sounded like CALF KEY WAH to me.

For those that don't like Lyse, I have to admit there were some moments where she was a little rough around the edges in terms of delivery, but I think Lyse isn't a bad character at all. It's how the stories are written.
I liked Lyse's charm and to be honest, her voice actor was really great. It doesn't feel over the top and she does have moments where she makes the wrong decision and it shows. I didn't see Lyse to be super powerful either regarding her battle or decision-making skills, but let's be real... if you never played or seen Lyse/Yda in 1.0 you really wouldn't know how much of a competent fighter she was. She can fight. She was much more involved, whereas her ARR involvement was far less.

I think one thing about Wuk Lamat that needed better reworking was, as someone mentioned, seeing Wuk Lamat never learned from mistakes. Wuk's convictions were never challenged, and she continued with the friendship conquers all narrative. I think we needed something more nuanced in character development. Even near the end, she was the same as she began.

I don't hate either character, I think the whole character comparison debate is kind of silly. Totally different storylines, backgrounds, motivations, etc. Are we really going to keep doing this dance every expansion?

The problem with Lyse is the writing. She went from being a silly, but strong person who witnessed Alphinaud screw up with the Crystal Braves, has seen the monetarists try to frame her and her fellow scions for supposed regicide and yet is still somehow ignorant of how governments and politics work. She's also ignorant of how citizens work and thinks just declaring who she is should be enough for people to want to follow her.

The problem with Wuk is we have no real backstory at all, but we are somehow supposed to feel close to her or think she is the best leader. We see that many people don't support her at all in the beginning, but then suddenly at the end everyone is so happy she won?

Both are poorly written, but with DT it is partially the story itself (coupled with gameplay) that is the problem. The character is just a symptom of that problem since she's not the only poorly written character in DT. In Stormblood our time was split between Lyse and Hien. This is why I constantly say that if our character had been more "neutral" and split between the 3 contestants, DT would have probably been better. Constantly being faced with Lyse 2.0 is the problem since we don't have a Hien (Koana for example) to occasionally learn about.

I'd like to point out that many people didn't like Alphinaud in 2.0 found him to be obnoxious and annoying for similar reasons but for entirely different types of personalities.

That said I have no dislike of Wuk Lamats character and I liked Alphinaud and Lyse also.

What I do think is that the story failed to make better use of her and Zarool Ja.

I believe post Zarool Ja's death Wuk Lamats role in the story should have been over.

I think that's fair - I was very confused by others reactions to Wuk Lamat in the MSQ mostly because even while completing the MSQ in the first three days of Early Access I took my time to absorb the story and do myriad of sidequests in between, and many fates. I don't know and can't judge how others play the game - but I get the feeling like if you just barrel through the expansion just doing MSQ you're gonna have a bad time. Because I really didn't notice anything wrong with Wuk Lamat outside her obvious character flaws which everyone in the story itself picks up on. I mean outside having Krile, Alphinaud, Alisae and Erenville just sort of be around was odd... but maybe if people hated Wuk Lamat from the offset they just weren't gonna have a good time.

I liked being sidelined letting people sort out their business in a controlled environment without my direct intervention as a positive guiding force.

This is a bit off topic but I find it funny how in some MMOs people will be upset that their character is perceived as "The Champion" or "Chosen one" wanting only to be an adventurer and then in this case if you're adventurer helping someone through their own story they feel like they've been sidelined... Like as Warriors of Light we're the strongest people in the whole world now. People know what we're about, it wouldn't be interesting if we were always at the center of things. I like that things don't have to revolve around me in spite of how powerful I am.

I think the reason people are making Stormblood comparisons is not in ways Lyse and Wuk Lamat are alike (as they are different characters clearly) but because they are two expansions that follow an inexperienced female entering into a leadership role without really having a good grasp on what that means. It's not really about the Warrior of Light, it's about the countries and peoples we're interacting with and that bothers some people. Dawntrail does take a noticeable decline in quality specially post solution 9 tour I could go on about but I find the disdain for Wuk Lamat to be a bit too undeserved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadda

I think that's fair - I was very confused by others reactions to Wuk Lamat in the MSQ mostly because even while completing the MSQ in the first three days of Early Access I took my time to absorb the story and do myriad of sidequests in between, and many fates. I don't know and can't judge how others play the game - but I get the feeling like if you just barrel through the expansion just doing MSQ you're gonna have a bad time.

---

As someone who finished the last trial last night, and Jesus, was that another Wuk Lamat dumpster fire, no. Nobody is "barreling through the expansion" and having a bad time. The MSQ is just a bad time. The MSQ made me stop playing the game several times since Early Access, because it was so depressingly bad, I could not continue playing XIV at that point. I literally finished the entirety of the EW Shared Fates from only having a single zone done, did every side quest and role quest, and leveled five different Jobs, just so I could delay the MSQ as much as possible, and it was still the most dog water, fan fiction, self insert, bullcrap I've ever read. It was a total dumpster fire, and the only interesting characters were immediately sidelined, ourselves included, the instant they dared try to take the spotlight from "Original Character: Do Not Steal".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

If by x100 you mean you actually experience her rise to power? It's called the rite of succession. Aside from the off screen alpaca mastering (another flaw of storytelling in DT), you actually experience her rise to power. It's just stupid and full of contrivance. But so is nearly everything and everyone in DT.

As far as Lyse maybe my memory is wrong, but it's quite literally "I'm a boss now". Certainly nothing to close to earned, bad writing or not. Her ending feels earned by simple proximity to the plot, not her affecting it.

Wuk Lamat is certainly not a part of 99% of the dialogue either. The dialogue she isn't a part of suffers from all the same issues. Her being a major character really doesn't change much. The xpac story is just mostly weak.

---

If it's stupid and full of contrivance, then I don't feel like I've experienced her rise to power. I feel like I've read a poor attempt at a character arc from a bunch of hack fan fiction writers. The story never makes me feel as though Wuk Lamat has grown as a leader, yet EVERYONE is cheering her on during the final ceremony. Everyone miraculously falls in love with her. Lyse might have suddenly been gifted the title of the leader of the resistance, but she wasn't coddled by everyone on her journey.

You're right, I'm sorry. Not 99%. I forgot most dialogue not spoken by Wuk Lamat is other characters talking about Wuk Lamat. That's why it feels like 99%. Also her being a major character changes a lot. The entire world warps around her. I could give you a ton of examples but it's been talked to death so I'll just give you the one that comes to mind first...

Wuk Lamat finally runs into some opposition when she meets the giants who want to go back to their days of conquering and expansionism. They're about to fight when, all of a sudden, a bird swoops in from out of nowhere and attacks them so that Wuk Lamat can step in and save them, giving her the moral high ground and preventing her from having to confront the fact that not everyone can be won over through peace and friendship. Thank goodness for that deus ex machina bird or her views might have been slightly challenged. Her Mary Sue writing affects the world around her, not just herself.

So yes, it's crappy writing all around, but it's crappy writing that centers mostly around her. She affects all aspects of the story, because the writers decided that all logic can be thrown out the door in their efforts to make her look good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

This is pretty much what I am saying. The comparison strikes me as weird. Lyse doesn't have nearly the same ratio of story as Wuk, and the narratives/gameplay are so differently executed and paced. Wuk is also just a casualty of the xpac itself. Lyse is in a (marginally) better written xpac overall where other characters simply outshine her.

---

I honestly felt like they did Lyse dirty. Was she goofy? Yes. But I never thought of her as being dumb and that's how she comes across in StB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadda

This is a bit off topic but I find it funny how in some MMOs people will be upset that their character is perceived as "The Champion" or "Chosen one" wanting only to be an adventurer and then in this case if you're adventurer helping someone through their own story they feel like they've been sidelined... Like as Warriors of Light we're the strongest people in the whole world now. People know what we're about, it wouldn't be interesting if we were always at the center of things. I like that things don't have to revolve around me in spite of how powerful I am.

---

I don't think our character has always been the "center" or a chosen one or the strongest. I'm pretty sure we are trounced by Zenos in StB. In StB the story was very similar to this one in that we were mainly there learning about 2 different leaders and their efforts to unite their people. In HW I don't view the WoL as the "main character". I felt Aymeric was more the focus of the expansion, but again we didn't spend every moment with him. Many people may confuse us as being the main character just because we help these people, but we are primarily an observer who helps occasionally. In both of these expansions we don't get into how their govts will run after all - it's still up to their leaders who we watched. I think ShB is where the story started making WoL as more of the main character as we learn about the ancients, the convocation, and Azem.

As for people not wanting to be called "The Champion" I feel like you are talking about criticism from WoW players? That's more based on how raiding works, how gearing works, how they tell us the choices would matter when they didn't, etc. I don't feel that's related to FFXIV. Many of the people who play FFXIV and said they didn't want to be the main character may have meant just a return to a good story we are just a part of (not focus of) like HW and (for some) StB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gortys

I don't think our character has always been the "center" or a chosen one or the strongest. I'm pretty sure we are trounced by Zenos in StB. In StB the story was very similar to this one in that we were mainly there learning about 2 different leaders and their efforts to unite their people. In HW I don't view the WoL as the "main character". I felt Aymeric was more the focus of the expansion, but again we didn't spend every moment with him. Many people may confuse us as being the main character just because we help these people, but we are primarily an observer who helps occasionally. In both of these expansions we don't get into how their govts will run after all - it's still up to their leaders who we watched. I think ShB is where the story started making WoL as more of the main character as we learn about the ancients, the convocation, and Azem.

As for people not wanting to be called "The Champion" I feel like you are talking about criticism from WoW players? That's more based on how raiding works, how gearing works, how they tell us the choices would matter when they didn't, etc. I don't feel that's related to FFXIV. Many of the people who play FFXIV and said they didn't want to be the main character may have meant just a return to a good story we are just a part of (not focus of) like HW and (for some) StB.

---

You do bring up a good point but it's not just WoW which is a popular example many modern RPG games like to put the player on a pedestal.