As someone who loved it, why I think Dawntrail didn't work for everyone [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by SarahWoof

And I think this is mostly because of Cahcuias very specific framing since Graha at least was like "if I could do this and talk to people I lost again I probably would".

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Do you think that's what he was saying? I admit I don't exactly hang on to G'raha's every word, but my reading of that scene is that he was saying that while the thought was tempting, it ultimately doesn't address the pains he's felt about the dead: he doesn't actually wish to talk to them again, he wishes that they hadn't died. And Living Memory doesn't actually solve that, it's just a tempting 'close enough' that may well only leave the wound to never heal.

FFXIV's had a lot of stories about necromancy, either literally or in essence, and I think the main thing they have in common is the central message of a 'sympathetic no': that yes, it's understandable to want this, and that you might even be better off for having explored the attempt, but that it will never be right: the cost will be too great, or the victory won't be complete. Living Memory's honestly only different in that it got further along than most other attempts, most of the others either failed before anything could get revived or shortly after they thought they succeeded. There's absolutely a connection to be made with Emet-Selch's, because that was also a necromancy story, but it's not that we're him; it's that we're staring down the hollow specter of Amaurot that he would've made if he'd gotten any further. And yeah, it hurts to have to hold to the same answer we always had even in this situation, but I really think it's supposed to.

Also, I feel like we're underselling Namikka and Otis' parts of that zone. I think they exist there to tell us that we aren't shutting down lives and futures full of promise: we're looking at people who are happy (or at least accepting; Otis' relationship to his life seems more complex) to have had the lives they did. We're not cutting off their golden years, these are people who've already lived their lives, and don't have anything left ahead of them but reliving it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think it's great to try exploring the actual, story-built reasons that people may not like a story, and I think you generally made some decent points here: this is a story where the WoL explicitly does not step forward and take point, where other people are fighting fights that we feel we could win, and that some people don't like that. This is true, but I think it's worth underlining that there is a reason; this is not our fight, to such a degree that us stepping in would actually be a detriment. Yeah, we could've beat Bakool Ja Ja's ass like three separate times, and all it would have done is prove his point: that might makes right, and that Wuk Lamat can't fight for herself. Similarly, Zoraal Ja walked into the throne room that day intent on proving two things: that his views on conquest are stronger than his father's and siblings' views on peace, and that he can pull the trigger on this gun aimed at Tural at any time. None of this would actually be proven wrong by us stepping into that fight; it would just prove in his mind that Tural is weak, and needs protecting from the big strong Eorzean. ...not to mention that we still didn't really know how he was getting back up every time, so chances were pretty good that we couldn't stop him either and he'd just go 'and even Eorzea's best can't stop me', and that might actually be worse. (Especially because this fanbase HATES plot-losing solo duties.) Doesn't excuse Koana not shooting the guy once he was clearly breaking his own rules of combat, but I think he was more hamstrung by the much bigger problem: that if Zoraal Ja dies, then nothing is stopping those airships from reducing Tulliyolal to slag.

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Agree, these would actually be very good reasons for US not to interfere. The problem is that (afaik) none of these reasons has been properly discussed, much less even stated in-game .

Best example the Gubool vs. ZaroolJa fight: Our Playercharacter 100% should have jumped in, giving the King the dialog option like "this ZoraalJa is somehow cheating, this isnt a duel anymore", or at least Koana should've stated the reason out loud, before we jump in.

But us just standing there, no one holding us back, watching like some paralyzed bunny? Nah-uh.

As a story, Dawntrail lives and dies on whether or not you like Wuk Lamat. Her presence is so pervasive and her role so significant that you have to like her to fully enjoy the story.

The fact the back half of the story is an adaptation of IX, which can come off as lazy writing to fans of that game or otherwise tries to invoke nostalgia for a game you've never played, doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The fact the back half of the story is an adaptation of IX, which can come off as lazy writing to fans of that game or otherwise tries to invoke nostalgia for a game you've never played, doesn't help.

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Is it? Because while I think we can all agree that it borrows heavily from IX, I'd hardly call it an adaptation. It just borrows some names and figures, has a final zone deliberately evoking Memoria, and characters clearly riffing on Garnet and Steiner. I'd hardly say Dawntrail resembles FFIX in more than trappings at all, any more than I'd say Stormblood resembles XII. Hell, Sphene and Otis are more dark mirrors of Garnet and Sphene than anything. And I think the deliberate evocation of IX also serves a thematic purpose, to give what it would call Alexandria a nostalgic feeling to us as the player; Living Memory as a concept begs for the world it's evoking to feel familiar and friendly (contrast with Fake Amaurot needing to feel foreign yet strangely tranquil, and Ultima Thule steeping itself in the alien and hostile). FFIX is actually a perfect fit for that, as it's not only a nostalgic title by itself, but its choice of aesthetic was always very 'storybook', a whimsical and friendly depiction of a classic high-fantasy setting; very 'Disney'. I can't speak for the people who haven't played it, just as I assume you can't, but I feel like there's nothing else that could've managed it.

I agree with Cleretic. It has some small parts of IX to illicit a kind of small response but it doesn't commit to anything large scale for IX to feel like an adaption but more borrowing concepts. The Alexandria Dungeon had the vibes of it and fit the look but I think that's as far as I can go with how much it borrows.

I think what stood out most for me was that well, once we got past the actual Trials, Wuk Lamat was in the way, and I'll explain.

That feeling of "the WoL should be doing something" hits hard when you meet Sphene face to face for the first time. Even though we didn't know the full story, Sphene was a real, experienced, long-standing queen. Wuk Lamat was a kitten who hadn't been leading but what? 3 days? and didn't even know her people till we dragged her around the island. Everything that [I]should[I] have happened, didn't because the kitten that wanted to be important was in the way trying to "relate" to Sphene. It was obvious, too many times that she wanted nothing more than the reach out for help, specifically to the WoL and Wuk was always in the way. The Scions are world savers. We're at what? 3 and counting so far. It took Y'shtola hearing one sentence to completely analyze what was going on. We could have saved Sphene, we could have probably talked her into releasing the Endless willingly. It's not like we can't relate. We just came from the Void. A planet full of people and creatures that couldn't die. And what was the result? They were tired. The Endless were tired of living. Why didn't anyone try to stop us from turning the servers off? They wanted them off. But look at the kind of queen Sphene was. They couldn't ask her for that after all she had done and sacrificed. They needed a mediator. We could have been that mediator. Everything could have played out so much differently. No one was concerned about Zoraal Ja, we could've dropped that dude at any point. There's a world being eaten by the Levin. That means, no matter what happened, we still need to go there and balance it or it will merge with the source again and we'll have another calamity. Her people need their home saved. Sphene needed saving. Too many important things got kicked to the side for Wuk Lamat to "play leader" She was "resolved' to ruin every opportunity for a proper resolution.

Yeah the choices are illusions are really something in dawn trail. In potted city when promted to answer i chose I'm kinda tired an want a nap for the npc to go no what she meant was she would help.... like whyyy

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Is it? Because while I think we can all agree that it borrows heavily from IX, I'd hardly call it an adaptation. It just borrows some names and figures, has a final zone deliberately evoking Memoria, and characters clearly riffing on Garnet and Steiner. I'd hardly say Dawntrail resembles FFIX in more than trappings at all, any more than I'd say Stormblood resembles XII. Hell, Sphene and Otis are more dark mirrors of Garnet and Sphene than anything.

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

I agree with Cleretic. It has some small parts of IX to illicit a kind of small response but it doesn't commit to anything large scale for IX to feel like an adaption but more borrowing concepts. The Alexandria Dungeon had the vibes of it and fit the look but I think that's as far as I can go with how much it borrows.

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Sphene's MO and goals are, broadly, identical to Garland's but adapted to service XIV lore. Her character bears Garnet's compassion, but in almost every other way besides appearances Sphene and Garland (IX) are pretty much the same character.

It's not a 1:1, but there are entirely too many similarities to call it its own story. If not an adaptation it is heavily derivative of IX, so much that if you're familiar with that game it's very obvious how things with Alexandria are going to shake out in the second half of the story.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's not a 1:1, but there are entirely too many similarities to call it its own story. If not an adaptation it is heavily derivative of IX, so much that if you're familiar with that game it's very obvious how things with Alexandria are going to shake out in the second half of the story.

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And I'm curious, how do you feel about the Garlean Empire? Especially in relation to Archadia from XII, but also Vector in VI to a degree. Because I actually think they're even more derivative than Alexandria; Alexandria took a half-dozen pieces from IX and remixed them to the point where even you're saying they combined the secondary hero and secondary villain into one character. Meanwhile, the Garlean Empire is just... another 'Rome but with mechs' evil empire, that goes down the same story those always do.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As a story, Dawntrail lives and dies on whether or not you like Wuk Lamat. Her presence is so pervasive and her role so significant that you have to like her to fully enjoy the story.

The fact the back half of the story is an adaptation of IX, which can come off as lazy writing to fans of that game or otherwise tries to invoke nostalgia for a game you've never played, doesn't help.

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I don't think that true. I didn't like Alphinaud back in ARR/HW days. He an important part of the story and get lots of screen time, but he written correctly and don't feel invasive. I still felt as the story moved because of my WoL action and reaction. The issue with Wuk is that the entire story revolve around her and her action and you get no saying in that. It kinda like if you were playing DnD and your DM insert his own OC and now every boss fight, the villain pull out some bs that down the party only for the OC to beat them if you cheer him up. It doesn't matter if you like the character or not, It doesn't matter if the character is well written. What matter is that the Player character has an very active part in the story and that plot move forward by their actions