Dawntrail Ninja looks boring

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Originally Posted by Aaramis

To play devil's advocate, making Ninja easier is not altogether a bad thing. Some of the changes are very welcome.
Ever do main scenerio or levelling roulette where you're at level 50 or lower and no way of maintaining your Huton except for re-casting it? It sucks. Having a permanent Huton will be amazing.
AoE trick attack will give us better damage during AoE pull phases, which comprise what, 90% of most dungeons? It will improve not just our damage, but the entire party's, and give TA a purpose outside of boss burst windows.

As for making Ninja easier... ever see the numbers of people playing Reaper? There's a reason for that. It's an easy dps class.
NIN and MNK aren't seen as often because a lot of players can put out similar numbers with RPR, while having half the key presses or mental stress.

Will I miss the current NIN? Yes. But the future one doesn't look half bad either. Let's wait and see how it plays.

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What sucks about recasting Huton? Just do it? People say "It sucks" as if it's a given, but you're recasting an ability to maintain a really powerful buff. That's fine. I hate the Huton changes because I liked the old timer gauge and the animation looked better than the new one imo

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Originally Posted by velswen

What sucks about recasting Huton?

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Usuing limited ninjustu charges in combat to reapply Huton rather than to cast Raiton/Katon is not particularly satisfying.

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Originally Posted by velswen

What sucks about recasting Huton? Just do it?

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That's the thing , it's just something you do without any real meaning or purpose . It's not like it's tied to other abilities like how you needed to maintain Huton for Shadow Fang because its alignment was directly dependent on it in Shb. To me AE and AC are basically the same , both same ninki gain and only a 20 potency difference ... woop dee do ... at least now they get to play off of each other. It will also make pre-Raiju gameplay alittle more worthwhile because you'll have something to stack up for especially pre 70 before your real burst window toolkit fills out.

Also I just think Ninja as a job should be naturally fast ... I mean you get a trait to make your legs faster but you need wind ninjitsu to make your arms move faster ?!?!?! should be the other way around lol

I personally HATE syncing with ninja but as I've thought about it , it's really one of the best things they could've done to make it fun to play at all level ranges . I also could never stand the Wind Mill , I always kept it on simple mode lol

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Originally Posted by Ilyn

both same ninki gain and only a 20 potency difference ... woop dee do ...

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Wait till you hear how a Dread Fangs combo and a Steel Fangs combo on Viper generates the same Serpent Offerings but one is 100 potency less.

This is the case for basically every melee with a buff. The GCD that applies the buff is a weaker counterpart but maintains the buff, while also generating the same amount of gauge resources.

Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush are not "playing off of each other" any more than they currently do pre-DT. You still alternate between the two, you still need to maintain a buff with Armor Crush (which is less potency that a buffed Aeolian Edge), and they both still provide the same amount of Ninki. Nothing is actually new, you're just doing 1 more AC per AE than you used to.

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Originally Posted by Akashii

Nothing is actually new, you're just doing 1 more AC per AE than you used to.

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So there is more interplay between the two than before if we're doing more AC per AE. AC actually changes the potency of AE now, and we don't have to waste mudra or bother with pre-pull nonsense that rarely works out in DF trials or raids because nobody uses a pull timer.

Then for the rest of the changes, trick attack will now feel worthwhile in AoE, and tenchijin has way more AoE value. AoE ninja is going to feel 100x better for those who do a lot of dungeons. Mug got an interaction added to it with your ninki spenders and a new animation.

How can you complain about these changes if you loved ninja already? It is just becoming objectively better in every single way with added nuance.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

we don't have to waste mudra or bother with pre-pull nonsense

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you know that hide resets Mudra^^
you basicly Mudra Huton -> Hide, gg

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

So there is more interplay between the two than before if we're doing more AC per AE. AC actually changes the potency of AE now

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Just because it changes the potency does not change the fact that the job plays identically. That is the primary issue I have with Dawntrail's iteration of Ninja, it plays just like it has since 6.1.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

and we don't have to waste mudra or bother with pre-pull nonsense that rarely works out in DF trials or raids because nobody uses a pull timer.

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As I've said in my initial post and follow-up posts, I agree with the Huton change. I think it is good for lower-level play, and as you say it takes away from pointless pre-pull nonsense. I am not against this point, and I find it so weird that people continue to refute as if I don't want any of the changes coming in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

How can you complain about these changes if you loved ninja already? It is just becoming objectively better in every single way with added nuance.

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Because, as is my primary point, the job plays almost identically to current Ninja, and arguably ShB Ninja. I do appreciate the QoL changes that Ninja is receiving, but these changes are overshadowed by the lack of impactful change that Ninja has received to it's rotation.
It has received nothing new to its filler, continuing to just 1-2-3, 1-2-4, with a Suiton when Trick Attack's cooldown is below 20s and before you overcap on Mudra charges.
The two minute window has ONE new oGCD that we push after TCJ. Mug only buffs the next Bhava/Hellfrog once per use.
With the exception of Trick Attack's upgraded AOE animation, all the new changes to the job we only see once every 2 minutes. Dokumori, Tenri Jindo, Zesho Meppo, Deathfrog Medium, are all things locked to a 2min cooldown, so for the rest of the rotation it is more of the same that we've had for years.

There are some interesting things they could've done.
They could've made Dokumori give a use for BOTH Zesho Meppo and Deathfrog Medium, and made Deathfrog Medium stronger than Bhavacakra so that you use both, instead of being stuck to Bhavacakra in single-target.
They could've made Tenri Jindo a GCD which would give options for what to push out of buffs. Maybe it allows you to push a Raiton out of buffs which can then be used during filler to maintain uptime if there's a melee disconnect.
They could've kept Huraijin and made it use up all stacks of Kazematoi, with its potency increasing per stack consumed, similar to the new Six-Sided Star.
We could've gotten a third AOE GCD, instead of being stuck with the same 1-2 AOE we've had since Heavensward.
We could've gotten upgraded Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush at least, since these have also been the same animation since ARR and Heavensward respectively.

There are so many more interesting things we could've gotten, and instead we got a QoL update for an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Akashii

There are so many more interesting things we could've gotten, and instead we got a QoL update for an expansion.

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I think it has cool stuff added to it without breaking the job design or flow. It's already a really busy burst window and it's even more busy now. The AoE changes are far more than just quality of life and personally those are the only real problems I had with the job.

I think they are currently in a difficult position because you can't really add much more to the jobs without pruning and people dislike pruning a lot. Especially in jobs that are borderline perfect as is like ninja. I think the only thing lacking in endwalker was AoE design, but now it is completely fixed for dawntrail and just as perfect as the rest of the job.

I get that there is little to no difference in the AC/AE rotation, but the interplay makes it feel better because it's not just maintaining a buff, it is actually increasing the potency of AE directly. Personally I really like the animation of Bhavacakra and wouldn't like it removed from the burst window entirely. I was sad to see it was changing, but now I know it's only one use every two minutes and bhava is still part of the burst. Just not twice. Adding a third AoE means adding another keybind to a job that already has a lot of keybinds for something as shallow as a combo chain. The nin aoe experience is totally refined in dawntrail and I think it is really good.

Is there something wrong with a job being so close to perfection that they can only really add a few cherries on top? The AoE changes are definitely significant though.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

you know that hide resets Mudra^^
you basicly Mudra Huton -> Hide, gg

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Can you at least read the entire sentence you're referring to before posting a silly response? Nearly everyone who plays nin in this thread thinks that the change is for the best.

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Originally Posted by Akashii

Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush are not "playing off of each other" any more than they currently do pre-DT. You still alternate between the two, you still need to maintain a buff with Armor Crush (which is less potency that a buffed Aeolian Edge), and they both still provide the same amount of Ninki. Nothing is actually new, you're just doing 1 more AC per AE than you used to.

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All I'm saying is AE will be more impactful especially in lower level content where you can fit multiple AE inside a burst and more incentivized to do so . Right now if (for some reason) I have to use AC to reset my timer instead of AE I'm basically like "whatever" .. no big deal . Nothing new is fine, like I stated in an earlier post " I've prolly played like 6 different versions of nin in the past 5 years and it's in a good place, no need to break the job again just to rebuild it " the beginning of 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0 were not fun times .

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Originally Posted by Akashii

There are some interesting things they could've done.
They could've made Dokumori give a use for BOTH Zesho Meppo and Deathfrog Medium, and made Deathfrog Medium stronger than Bhavacakra so that you use both, instead of being stuck to Bhavacakra in single-target.
They could've made Tenri Jindo a GCD which would give options for what to push out of buffs. Maybe it allows you to push a Raiton out of buffs which can then be used during filler to maintain uptime if there's a melee disconnect.
They could've kept Huraijin and made it use up all stacks of Kazematoi, with its potency increasing per stack consumed, similar to the new Six-Sided Star.
We could've gotten a third AOE GCD, instead of being stuck with the same 1-2 AOE we've had since Heavensward.
We could've gotten upgraded Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush at least, since these have also been the same animation since ARR and Heavensward respectively.

There are so many more interesting things we could've gotten, and instead we got a QoL update for an expansion.

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The only thing I would want is for Kazematoi to get spent with Raijus as well as AE .
It's not just QoL and 1 new ability , it's a fully jacked up opener which is ninjas whole identity . Ninja is like the only job where it's combat loop didn't stop evolving till lvl 90 which IMO is a good stopping point

Hmmm I'm pretty sure Hakke Mujinsatsu didn't get added till Shb .. all we had was Death Blossom up to that point lol

It's just a wait and see now, you never know what changes they'll make by release and all the way till 7.1

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Is there something wrong with a job being so close to perfection that they can only really add a few cherries on top? The AoE changes are definitely significant though.

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Have to agree it's just icing on the cake :D .. Also I really don't see Huton being useful pre lv94 unless you wanna take a AoE damage loss to use TA on a Alpha type mob. Might be useful if you want everything to die at the same time Hmmm