[Character Graphics Update]: Second Benchmark Worries

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Originally Posted by xirune

"Overall appearance of player characters will be altered as little as possible" -from one of the slideshows in Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LXVIII

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As little as possible could mean anything honestly.
Some changes might've required more change than others even if those bigger changes were the minimum they could do in those cases.

We'll just have to wait and see what'll happen down the road.

Edit:
That's even what "Possible" implies.
That chances are that it isn't possible to keep the changes minor for some.

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Originally Posted by justausername

see that's the problem though. I also play a face 3 male viera (and a face 1), and I very much love the changes. If they reverted them I would be extremely unhappy.

I also think adjusting the lighting like they say they are doing will help a lot of people see that the 'differences' they are seeing, aren't actually there.

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Unless you are skinning both models and comparing the textures and triangles you don't get to tell me that what I'm seeing doesn't exist.

I didn't specifically say YOU. I said 'a lot of people'.

It's a graphical update. Of course some things were going to change. There are some actually errors that need to be fixed, sure. But things were not going to look the same when it was being updated. It was kinnnda the point for it NOT to.

You seem to have missed why people are actually upset if you think that "well it was supposed to look different" is actually a reasonable point. There's a vast gulf between changing lighting and the results of up-ressing and giving everyone the same generic mouth shape, or rigging in permanent duckface on a face that didn't have it before.

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Originally Posted by justausername

I also think adjusting the lighting like they say they are doing will help a lot of people see that the 'differences' they are seeing, aren't actually there.

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The lighting changes will change the shape and size of my characters lips and revert her eyebrow color from blonde to black again? Man, it's crazy what the devs can do with just lighting these days.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

As little as possible could mean anything honestly.
Some changes might've required more change than others even if those bigger changes were the minimum they could do in those cases.

We'll just have to wait and see what'll happen down the road.

Edit:
That's even what "Possible" implies.
That chances are that it isn't possible to keep the changes minor for some.

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Changing lip shape that is 90% texture is not really some impossible herculean task, really. It's called using a reference, which I'm aware that a lot of forum goes here tell on themselves they could not do, but the people at Square Enix are paid professionals.
I've also been seeing a lot of people in other threads trying to gaslight people into it either being a full revert back to pre DT or current whatever changes, no inbetween.. It really wouldn't take too much to tweak the new faces to resemble the old ones more.

That aside the "We're really putting a lot of priority on not changing the image you have of your own character in your head. We want to make sure your characters still look the way that you enjoy them now." part of the quote is a lot more obvious in regards to the intent in my opinion. It shouldn't be the people who are satisfied with their character having to look for other options ( many of which fantasia won't fix ) but rather the people who want something new. Square has shown they're willing to make customization available that's literally a copy paste of previous face but with a beard on midlander, so I don't see why they couldn't add the new batch of crack customization for those that want it eventually after they nail down the actual current look. Because here's the thing, they've been able to make do with the current customization and in the majority of the times they don't even see the difference, so what will some more waiting do? As opposed to people who may have been playing for a decade and are suddenly altered with no options to fix besides breaking TOS, it's not even close.

At the end of the day we do have to wait and see, but I find the attitude of some forum goers very reminiscent of those shutting down Hrothgar/Viera grievances since they weren't affected, so it obviously doesn't matter.

Sorry if you feel like you’re being dog piled here, but I have to agree with everyone else in here so far. I understand where you’re coming from though, I really do. You’re happy about the changes. Your character looks better to you now. That is great! I truly want that for you. Understand though that while these changes have made you happy, the same changes have made a lot of people very sad. When you have some people that are happy and some that are upset, and both sides feelings are valid, it becomes a matter of priorities and intent. The developers have to weigh the options and decide which group to satisfy (I’m assuming they can’t just add more facial options and make us both happy. The CC limitations probably need their own huge effort to update)

So on one hand you have players who have gone from content to upset. The face they grew attached to changed too much and looks like a stranger to them now. Many of them will have carried the same character through the whole games story. (The changes aren’t limited to what’s caused by lighting as many detailed comparisons of the character mesh have been made both here and on the JP forums.)

On the other hand you have players who have gone from content to even more content. They were already using the faces as they were, or they like the new look of a face and want to switch to it. They weren’t as attached or invested in their characters previous appearance as the other group. They also don’t have years of attachment to these new features like the other group has to the old ones. They are upset by the idea of not getting the new features but were not upset prior, and would not have been upset if the new features remained the same but higher quality.

It makes more sense to prioritize the first group here. You can aim to keep things in a place where everyone was mostly content, or enter a new place where some people are really happy but others are really sad. But if that’s not as clear cut a choice to you, then you have to consider what the developers intent has been through this process:

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

"We're really putting a lot of priority on not changing the image you have of your own character in your head. We want to make sure your characters still look the way that you enjoy them now."

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It’s pretty clear what the intent of the dev team was, and that further adds weight to prioritizing the first group. We’ll see what happens, and I would love more than anything to just get an expanded CC with both closer matches to old features and new prettier features for those that want that. Realistically unlikely though.

I’m of course biased because I’m of the group who is unhappy with what happened to my characters features, but I’ve tried to explore this as objectively as I can and I feel the conclusion is pretty obvious. I don’t have any more control over the situation than you and I doubt I have any influence on it either. This is more a general appeal to other players. While I want you to have new facial features you like more than the existing ones, all things considered it just makes more sense for those to come further down the line with a proper CC update.

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Originally Posted by justausername

see that's the problem though. I also play a face 3 male viera (and a face 1), and I very much love the changes. If they reverted them I would be extremely unhappy.

I also think adjusting the lighting like they say they are doing will help a lot of people see that the 'differences' they are seeing, aren't actually there.

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Could you show example pictures of what you like and would be upset if they changed on face 3? SE cannot take your feedback into account with no examples or specifics. If this means so much to you, surely you can provide this.

But the "differences" aren't actually there? Which is it?

To the topic:

On every level, priority should be given to preserving characters. If you like the new stuff, that's cool, but the promise from SE was to change as little as possible, meaning between two choices the correct is the one that resembles what was before.

Like the guy above, the people who "like" the changes almost never provide any accurate feedback. "I like it" is vague and tells us nothing. What do you like? Please specify, maybe then a true compromise can be found. "Address nothing" is NOT a compromise.

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Originally Posted by AdlerTakamura

Options would be the only way to keep both sides happy.

Person A: OMG I hate the new eyebrows, Square Enix better change them back
Person B: OMG I love the new eyebrows, Square Enix better keep them

Only way to make them happy is to offer both eyebrow options.
Just an example.

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Seconding this. Especially with mouth options I really think we need more variety. Right now each face basically has one type of mouth shape in the editions: thin, medium, large, slightly compressed medium.
I can really see how some people prefer the new mouth shapes because they do allow for a different type of customisation in a face.

I think if it is in any way possible players should be able to keep their current customisation options* (updated ofc) because many of us did not only choose them out of necessity but because they really resonated with us. But diversifying feature choices by adding the new ones from the current benchmark seems important to me too. They have already put in the work to create the new features after all. That doesn't need go to waste either.

(E.g., I don't think the new mounth shape on female au ra face 4 is objectively worse than the current one, nor is it better. But it's one that also happens to perfectly fit my taste. The new one just doesn't do it for me. To other people the new mouth shape may be a lot more appealing according to their personal taste.)

*(I also don't mean to say they have to delay DT for this. I don't know what the best approach would be. Whether it's doing the graphic update as planned and reintroducing the old features later, fixing everything in 2 months before the launch (not sure this is possible) or postponing the update (but not DT) and then implementing a more polished upgrade later, that hopefully caters to the wishes of those who liked the old features and those who liked the new ones? Speaking for myself, if I knew they'd reintroduce the old options in later patches then I'd be content.)

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Originally Posted by AdlerTakamura

Options would be the only way to keep both sides happy.

Person A: OMG I hate the new eyebrows, Square Enix better change them back
Person B: OMG I love the new eyebrows, Square Enix better keep them

Only way to make them happy is to offer both eyebrow options.
Just an example.

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More options sounds like the best outcome to better suit everyone, though, judging by other posts, it sounds like it wouldn't be a straightforward thing to do for technical reasons. In this case, I presume the same would apply to a toggle, as others have suggested in the past. I would very much hope that's not the case, but I also want to be realistic.

Even if it came to the point that completely identical features weren't able to be returned without going back to the old facial structure (which sounds like it would be problematic for various reasons, including animations), giving more available options might help everyone to find something closer to what they like/their old look. An increase in options has been long overdue anyway.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Are their any worries you have SE might add to the new benchmark due to feedback? are you worried as well they might revert too many changes?

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I'm 'curious' about how these new benchmark changes will look, rather than 'worried'. For the most part, I quite liked the changes: the environment looked far, far better; hands and feet were a whole different level; and I was okay with how my Hyur and Miqote looked. My Vieras a bit less so, but a bit of adjustment to one should hopefully fix it (or maybe even that won't be needed after this benchmark change) and the other might still be changing to Elezen. But all in all, I was pleasantly surprised by the changes so I somewhat hope they don't take too much of a jump backwards following feedback.