I feel like the issue is that the situation this comes up in is where you have no healer or you're somehow struggling with healing in the general group which healers don't really need to GCD heal or like you've pointed out your in a solo instance run of something like POTD, which are all valid concerns and reasons for clemency over a ogcd heal that's one use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I think the Solution Would be that Clemency is apart of MP management (like I've said above), So it's still tied to your damage if you're over using it and it can remain a skill that can be spammed, as by design you will lose out on magic attacks (your big burst damage) if you're over using it for those situations, But if you used clemency more wisely and reserved (lets say 1-2 times per minute) you wouldn't lose out on MP burst.
Obviously this would take them having to tune How much MP you gain through attacks and MP values in general, I also think if they made clemency a more active general skill they should remove divine might healing (I personally would rather it be replaced but targetable healing anyway). I just rather have something that's useful in all content then in rare moments.
7.0 Tank Wishlist
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12-02-2023, 03:36 PMRithy255
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12-02-2023, 07:25 PMShurrikhan
I'll save (most of) the overambitious version(s) for later, I guess, and just throw out some at least mildly feasible spitballs...
General- Macros un-neutered (allowed to queue, etc.) up to the point of the first skill actually actuated. Players are free to combine what they will, though they still only reliably get one action per button-press.
- Especially long animation locks, like that of/from consumables, have been reduced to more standard durations. All actions may now be queued.
- Skill Speed and Spell Speed consolidated into Speed. Critical Hit again just changes the chance of scoring a critical hit and crits all just do +50% baseline, but "guaranteed crits" now instead add 100% chance and excess chance is now converted into additional effect; a 120% chance of a 150% effect crit becomes a 100% chance of a 160% effect crit.
- Tenacity, Piety, and Direct Hit moved to Tertiary Stats, which compete only among themselves. Tenacity no longer gives any extra damage but now also reduces the duration of most debuffs. Piety has been replaced with Vigor, which increases MP and HP naturally restored over time. Direct Hit has been replaced with Mobility, which increases your movement speed and the effect of movement speed bonuses received.
ALL TANKSTank Mastery has been removed. Tankbuster damage has been reduced accordingly, but in a decreasing portion the further those tankbusters weaken from lethal values. (I hate trait bloat, and Fending's gear's eHP gap is already plenty massive.)- Enmity is now positionally dependent. Strikes made from the rear create 30% less Enmity. Strikes made from the flanks create 15% less Enmity.
- Tank stances are now on by default (turned on upon swapping to a tank or joining any instance as one).
- Provoke now, for 4 seconds, forces the target to attack the one who Provoked it. It also increases the target's Enmity received from the one who provoked it by 30%. This is a hidden effect which lasts indefinitely.
- Rampart has been removed from the game. Job-specific mitigation tools have been buffed in frequency, control, and power its place.
- Shirk has been removed.
- Low Blow and Interject have been consolidated. Interject now uses the old Fracture animation (on PLD, pummel-bashing and then goring the enemy between their clavicles; on WAR, just bashing their head in), rather than the wimpy spin-to-win animation. It also now also stuns and pacifies, has a second charge, and recharges over just 20 seconds.
Paladin- To compensate for the loss of Rampart, Bulwark gains a second charge and its CD is reduced by a third.
- Now legitimately uses MP, instead of relying on Requiescat and/or Divine Might to be allowed to actually use its spells. Your spells now consume up to 100% more MP to deal up to 50% more potency and take up to 100% less time to cast based on your %MP (effect maxed out at 8000). (This reaches full effect at above 80% MP.) Base spell potencies increased, becoming output-positive at around 60% MP.
- Goring Blade removed. Though it adds some burst, that can be provided in other ways, and it basically just gets bundled as bloat.
- Each stack of Sword Oath now causes your next use of Fast Blade, Riot Blade, or Royal Authority to be upgraded into a new skill that emphasizes a direct damage (Judgment), MP generation (Atonement), or gauge generation (Reckoning), in respective order, granting more control over what the PLD actually wants to build towards. This supersedes but does not cancel existing combo progress.
- Fight or Flight now grants 3 stacks of Sword Oath and increases your secondary and tertiary stats (Determination, Speed, Critical Hit; Tenacity, Vigor, Mobility) by a flat amount each (equivalent to about 10% Determination and 10% Tenacity, with the other stats each getting an increase of equal stat cost). It no longer increases damage directly. (Think Seraphim, but far stronger, and on a longer CD accordingly.)
- Requiescat just causes your spells to deal full effect as if used at full MP while consuming no MP, no longer requires melee range, and no longer deals damage; it's just a buff. (May want to revise it further for interplay with Fight or Flight in a less obvious way than just stacking them together. TBD.)
- Confiteor is now a 2-minute CD reduced through MP spent while in combat. (Voila; there's your Goring Blade burst back in a way that makes PLD finisher selection more interesting by trying to sync Confiteor to add spawns or, failing that, to raid buffs.)
- Cover now costs no gauge.
Paladin (Overambitious Version Preview, as Food for Thought)- Role Actions removed. Rampart's sustain and control has been siphoned to existing tank-specific skills. Tanks' Enmity generation (and Enmity generation in general) has been revised as to no longer need a Tank Stance nor Shirk to gain, hold, or avoid aggro, mostly through a new Focus system (which influences Enmity generation based on your actions in coupling with mob AI) and through relative positioning. Tanks (and certain others) still have (now varied) means of oGCD snap-aggro, but not necessarily as an entire taunt.
- Most actions not strictly lore-related to their job are now class skills. We now gain new actions and significantly gameplay-affecting traits far more quickly in early game than in late-game (skills have all been shuffled towards earlier levels). For instance, of PLD's roughly 44 actions or gameplay-affecting traits added after pruning Role Actions, it'd gain an action or gameplay-affecting trait at, say, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62, 64, 66, 70, 72, 74, 76, 80, 82, 84, 86, 90. (And you'd probably actually split up some of those traits for a smoother contextualization into leveling, allowing you to fill out the holes a bit.)
- Content sees considerably more damage events via new, minor attacks and mechanics, neither quite constant nor necessarily wholly chaotic, but enough to certainly add some pressure and more to work around between scheduled bursts. AoEs' visuals have been revised, progressing from light yellow to red (with additional contrast for floors) to convey their damage, and ripple two pulses from their center to edges to signal the remaining time until the AoE goes off and to imply whether the AoE will pierce, half-pierce (deal diminished damage with each additional enemy struck), or stop after the first player struck. Wholly free player mobility has been faintly tuned down, making it so that some AoEs may be worth standing in for the damage, depending on available healing.
- Most mob attacks now "skillshot" to a degree, making them interceptible by others (generally done by tanks, for obvious reasons, though those with defensives may cover for others to save healing GCDs or prevent an ally's death). Gladiators receive the "Shield Wall" trait that allows their Defense to stack with those they are defending when they "intercept" an attack meant for someone else, up to 50% of their own. Paladins gain the "Guardian" trait that extends their interception range by an additional 2 meters.
- WIP... Idea centers around PLD being a much more "deliberately" versatile (you can tell what they're going to do before they do it because of how they build towards it) support-capable tank opposite DRK's more "cunning" versatility (lots of mob manipulations and complex interactions not terribly visible to allies), built around MP and Oath (which can now vary between Shield Oath and Sword Oath). (GNB and WAR are both more mixed-output, with WAR being a bit more team-supportive as a sort of "strike leader" or "holdout" [has enough flat and time-insensitive sustain to survive attrition fights] and GNB being more solo or duo-oriented but reliant on burst damage[-with-suppression] and mobility for its survival.)
WARRIOR- Raw Intuition again provides pure mitigation, again giving the choice between bunkering down and healing from damage dealt.
- Thrill of Battle gains a second charge, and its cooldown is reduced.
- Raw Intuition no longer upgrades into Bloodwhetting. Raw Intuition remains even at level 82+, simply gaining the 400p of barrier.
- Nascent Flash renamed to Bloodrage (seriously, how is "Flash" a Warrior skill) and again heals for a % of damage dealt and healing done. If used on a party member, they heal for a % of their damage dealt and their healing done. At level 82, it grants 400p of barrier.
DARK KNIGHT- Edge/Flood replaced with a revised form of Dark Arts that follows up the prior action instead of buffing the next. In this way, we technically get ~16 different possible spenders [~12 attacks and ~4 defensives] with a single button instead of 2 possible spenders for 2 buttons. All carry some degree of utility, with only 3 being rotationally obligatory (Scourge after Heavy Slash per 30s, Soul-Sunder after Carve and Spit per 60s, and Salt and Darkness after Salted Earth once per 90s). This still costs 3k MP at a time.
Apart from those 3 rotationally-obligatory actions, Dark Arts typically grants about 10 potency per %MP consumed (~300p per offensive Dark Arts), down from 15.3, making it less costly to spend defensively.
- Dark Dance trait added, functioning much like the existing Dark Arts but much more flexibly and serving to grant roughly a free cast each of defensive and offensive spenders per minute. It causes your MP-spending defensive actions to each nullify up to 3000 MP that would otherwise be spent on an attack while you are below 50% MP, based on the amount of damage nullified by the defensive use of MP, and each attack slightly to reduce the cost of your next defensive use of MP by 600.
- Darkside trait revised. It now instead increases Attack Speed by 10% and Movement Speed by 5% for 6 seconds per MP spender. Multiple instances may exist simultaneously, to a maximum of 4 stacks' worth of additional Speed, but do not refresh one another. Darkside gauge UI rehauled. (Yes, you can go fast now. Yes, this will mean potency changes across the board.)
- New trait added, Blood for Blood - Your healing done is increased in equal portion to your missing health. Damage to be taken over time counts as if you had already taken that damage. (Can drop lower for bigger self-heals. Synergizes well with Living Dead.)
- Delirium made more distinct from Inner Release. It instead now, for 10 seconds, freezes the timers of existing and future applications of Darkside and Blood Weapon or Blood Price while increasing your spells' and weaponskills' MP and Blood generated by 50%.
- Blood Weapon again lasts a set duration, 12 seconds, rather than for 5 hits. It therefore marks a burst window (since you want small GCDs via Darkside over that time, rather than merely a 1-off resource-generator CD (one free MP and Blood spender each).
- Shadowbringer now costs 3k MP in itself. Salt and Darkness is now a Dark Arts action, thereby costing 3k MP. This adds 3 weave spaces, reducing our maximal condensed oGCD load from 16 to 13, giving enough room for all our class defensives.
- In compensation for the added MP costs above, we generate roughly that much more MP (5600 more MP generated per minute). Carve and Spit now generates 600 MP and deals 210 potency for each of its 3 strikes (1200 more MP/min), Blood Price has been returned and can be cast on others, and the remainder is handled by Syphon Strike, Stalwart Soul, and Blood Weapon's MP per hit.
- All in all, this will move 3 casts per 2 minutes from our most overcrowded sections to our more barren sections. We remain bursty, especially with Darkside creating mini-burst windows, but it's less concentrated into just our 2-minute windows.
- Living Shadow, Blood Weapon, and Blood Price can be much more flexibly timed, functioning more alike to a stance than mere rigid CDs, draining X seconds of charge skill for every second active. They must be at least 40% charged to be used and cannot be toggled off until having lasted for at least 40% of their maximum duration. They're therefore flexible, but not easily cheesed.
- Living Shadow no longer costs Blood. Maximum charge time increased to 180 seconds. Maximum duration reduced to 18 seconds (drains 9 seconds charge per second of use). Potency increased. If toggled off, Living Shadow will end after its next attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
GUNBREAKER- <Still very WIP.>
- In compensation for the loss of Rampart, Camouflage gains a second charge and its cooldown is reduced by a third. It also now grants a burst of speed (30%) for 2s on activation and each time you parry or a nearby enemy is stunned or interrupted.
- Burst Strike now suppresses for a portion of damage dealt.
- Continuation now grants "Blur of Steel", which increases your Parry chance by 30%, stacking indefinitely. Multiple applications may overlap, but they do not refresh each other and fade separately. Each application lasts 3 seconds.
- Fated Circle later gains a Continuation.
- Gnashing Fang later gains a second charge but also increases your Attack Speed and Critical Strike rate each by 10%, fading over 30 seconds. Potencies adjusted to compensate for this consequent damage bonus. This should keep it still to roughly a per-30s rhythm.
- Bloodfest has been replaced by Draw. Draw can be used on allies or enemies while in combat, generating a Cartridge and changing Draw to Release for 30s, giving access to a further action, with a passive buff in the meantime. Two charges. It effectively provides an active skill usable within 30s and a passive effect lasting for 30s, again encouraging spread-out actions despite offering the added flexibility of a second charge.
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12-02-2023, 07:27 PMJidkaYou´re right. I didn't think about cooldown nor zero cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I thought about a way to use mana in lvl50 roulette because Riot Blade gives us mana and we do nothing with it. (in my mind, oGCD Clemency still cost MP) -
12-03-2023, 02:39 AMRenathrasYeah, my go-to answer right now is letting PLD learn basically "Cure 1" at a lower level and have it Trait upgrade to Clemency. WHICH USED TO BE A THING back in ARR/HW when PLD could Cross-Class some CNJ abilities (also Raise, but only could use it out of combat). That is, give PLD a lower level heal spell that then upgrades to Clemency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jidka
Clemency is ridiculously powerful for what it is, but it's good design to me because it requires a complete trade-off of "you can be DPSing or you can be healing, but not both", which prevents it from being used all the time. Unlike Nascent, which has no trade-off and, as a result, has given us "Green Tank" WAR completely taking over as healer for 4 man dungeons. A lower level Clemency could be just 500 potency and no 50% splash heal when using on someone else (where it also heals the PLD), and when you get the Trait to Clemency, it gains that 1000 potency and 50% splash.
I also feel like things like Holy Might should come earlier, at latest level 50. One thing I think WAR does REALLY well is that you have ESSENTIALLY your whole kit and rotation by level 50, and after that, you just get little additions and cool stuff added on (gap closers, etc), but this means for 90% of the content in the game that you get from syncing (everything that isn't Guidhests or level 15-49 dungeons, all 6 or so of those, in Leveling Roulette), WAR still feels MOSTLY like level 90 WAR other than not having Raw Intuition until 52. But in terms of the rotation, it's all there, more or less. Even in lower content, you still have low level Fell Cleave, low level Inner Release, etc. PLD doesn't have Holy Might until 64 (in SB) and doesn't have Atonement until 76 (ShB) and Confetior until 80 (at least Requiescat + 4 HS KIND of gives you a similar feel, but you don't even have the base rotation of 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 until level 76!)
I feel like a lot of Jobs need that, like WHM should get at least Afflatus Solace by level 30 and ideally a lower level Misery around then, too. Lilies+Misery is the core of level cap WHM gameplay, but you don't even get Solace until level 52 and don't get Misery until 74. That'd be like NIN not having Mudras until 74 other than Fuma Shurikan, or WAR not getting Storm's Eye and Fell Cleave until level 74 or something. Traits exist and upgrade abilities now, so there's a good avenue for how to deal with this sort of thing in game.
EDIT:
The sad thing is, it was this way in ShB. Requiescat only gave you boosted magic damage if your MP was at least 80%. This meant you could cast roughly 1-2 Clemency per minute, as any more than that, your MP wouldn't have gotten back above 80% before Requiescat was ready again. Granted, the 2 min burst wasn't a thing at the time like it is now (and PLD kind of ignored it anyway), but it was a DPS loss as you'd need to do some more combo/Riot Blade, and possibly do another 1-2-Royal-1-2-Goring before you could go into your Requiescat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
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12-03-2023, 04:57 AMShurrikhanI'd dig that. Sure. Make it a level 30 addition for them, even, since although Gladiator could also use Cure before (anyone could), it doesn't really fit Gladiator's aesthetic any more than any other DoW class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Aye. This. I think Clemency feeling weak speaks also to its successive nerfs (tanks no longer receiving flat %throughput trait bonuses, Clemency no longer being buffable by Requiescat, etc.), but even more than that -- to the reduction in healing requirements and to the focus damage that used to make Cover and single-target off-heals seem pretty darn valuable (no more healer jails during high damage intake, etc.).Quote:
Clemency is ridiculously powerful for what it is, but it's good design to me because it requires a complete trade-off of "you can be DPSing or you can be healing, but not both"
Let its max effect be a bit higher but come at slightly further DPS cost for a bit more swing and... honestly, it's fine if it sometimes doesn't see use (when, frankly... the fight design balance is out of whack and/or tanks have a bit too much free ally-affectable sustain [that is, damage nullified + HP restored]-- as it is the case right now).
I wouldn't hate the occasional Clemency oGCD, but if we feel it's necessary to make that button feel worthwhile, then we're dealing with symptoms, not the disease. Worthwhile, if that's all we can manage, but hardly ideal.
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Tangent: Anyone got any interest in, or ideas for... way more interesting shield-related stuff from Paladin? -
12-03-2023, 05:25 AMmallleable
Probably a whacky PLD idea, but what if Passage of Arms no longer had a cool down, and instead it depleted a gauge so it can be used whenever you wanted, for as long as you needed as long as you have the gauge.
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12-03-2023, 06:07 AMIcecyleeI don't know if I'd say it's *way* more interesting strictly speaking, but I do think it'd be pretty easy to expand upon it in small ways that feel meaningful, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Firstly you could probably change the paladin casting animations to use the shield instead of the sword as the foci, letting it be the thing that glows and channel mana through it esp for things like Clemency. Shield lob could either directly upgrade to holy spirit, or grant a free divine might stack to make PLD a bit more mobile when disengaging if it was decided it needed to stick around for some reason. Get rid of Intervene, replace it with Shield Charge as a GCD gap closer that can target enemies or allies, with it doing roughly average combo damage to enemies, or granting a decently sized barrier when used on allies. Bring back shield swipe as a small damage gain over your combo that procs off blocks. Add an effect to shield bash that gives a significant chunk of damage as feedback when used a few seconds before a tank buster goes off. Maybe make it work with stacks markers too if you want it to be a button you get to use a little more often.
I'd probably bring back MT/OT stances too, but have the alter how you're playing slightly. Also cut the number of atonement you get per combo from 3 to 1. Tank stance would increase your block rate to make shield swipe procs easier, enable the tank buster counter attack effect, and maybe increase the damage on shield lob/charge. The OT stance would add a side positional to royal authority for a minor damage boost, and a back positional to atonement that gives you a stack of sword oath, and when you got 3 sword oath stacks it'd let you use Goring Blade as a big hit GCD attack. Not super involved, but makes them a little different, and gives OT a way to make up the difference by not having access to the When Hit Deal More Damage style attacks MT has. -
12-03-2023, 07:20 AMShurrikhanI do feel like if there were any job deserving of a "hit this whenever tf you feel like it" mitigation skill, it'd be PLD, though I can't help but consider the uptime implications of that. Since we wouldn't want it only ever to be used immediately after our GCD's animation (i.e., in "Gap_1" or as a "round's Action_2"), it'd probably have to hold some sort of balancing factor there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
Personally, I'd also like that to be applicable to most of its (visually speaking, at least) physically/literally-shield-based mitigation, as it seems a waste to have that fun feature only ever seen full use out when used to protect the whole raid.
I'm attempting something similar to that right now with Shield Oath and Sword Oath, each carrying some passive and active differences, though there's a lot left to tweak. Having an actual powerful shield has been something I wanted since seeing the Knights of the Round in HW and all the more so after seeing what fun things WoW has been able to do with their shield skills (think the likes of a shield that bounces off multiple enemies or pins one in place Fellowship of the Ring style, a fixed-distance rapid charge that punts enemies in your path, gathering resonant energy from blocks and then blasting that outward in a semi-sphere, etc.). Some AMMORPGs also have done some interesting stuff with shields having a psuedo-separate GCD that allows for some interesting weaving, which seems very fitting for the Gladiator, especially (and therefore indirectly for Paladin).Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecylee
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12-03-2023, 08:22 AMDRKoftheAzure10,000% sure I want this, because my reasoning is holding the second charge of No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock while waiting for Gnashing Fang to come off cooldown and then burst again when Gnashing Fang comes off cooldown, though 30 second recast on No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock will work as well if the 2 charges seem a bit too confusing to some people. Almost forgot to mention a second charge for Bloodfest as well, so gonna update that really quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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12-03-2023, 09:34 AMShurrikhanOkay, but... why? Why would you want a 30s recast on No Mercy, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock just so that the skills become even more thoughtlessly/unvariedly bundled?Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
While the length of Sonic Thrust's DoT does faintly complicate matters (possibly to the point of some rather unintuitive optimizations in more raidbuff-heavy compositions), Ren is spot on about the general gameplay implications of those extra charges.