This is a complaint that has been raised by the playerbase for nearly 8 years now. There are a lot of advantages that WAR was grandfathered into back in Heavensward and Stormblood that were never properly reviewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
If you want to justify Vengeance's thorns effect, then it makes sense for Shadow Wall to have a Blood Price effect built into it. If Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting have built in lifesteal in addition to the damage down and barrier functions, then perhaps TBN/Oblation need to be merged into a two charge defensive that provides a barrier, damage reduction, and burst heals when the effect expires. If Inner Release automatically nullifies Stun, Sleep, Bind, Heavy, and most knockback and draw-in effects for 15 seconds out of every minute, then at bare minimum Delirium should provide a movement speed buff. If Shake it Off is a 15-21% raidwide barrier with associated heal and heal-over-time effects on the same recast as Dark Missionary's 10% magic damage reduction, then at baseline Dark Missionary should work against both physical and magical damage, while offering some additional utility like say an Expedient effect.
There's no excuse for WAR to retain these advantages over other tanks across expansions, especially after their DPS has once again been inflated by the dev team.
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07-11-2023, 04:20 AMLyth
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07-11-2023, 12:23 PMMarxamWAR was in a really bad place in 2.0 and it was only in 2.1 that it took off. Imo WAR retained a lot of these old quirks because it was a job designed with a specific theme in mind and every expansion it has expanded on that while staying nearly consistent to its previous iterations. No other tank has retained its core design for more than 2 expansions yet WAR has literally never changed, outside of how much self healing it gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Also, vengeance is so miniscule now that removing it will only further homogenize the tank role. It honestly doesn't even play a factor anymore since most savage bosses auto with magic and NF no longer is affected by it, meaning it can't even heal from the counter damage anymore. Removing it will only piss off WAR players similar to how over power was changed. A change so redundant when you consider that WAR has access to other circle aoes like SC, Decimate, Orogeny and Primal Rend.
WAR is just there to prove that having a consistent design around what the job and expanding on it's current tool kit can make the job better (BLM is also in this category). DRK is the anthesis to it, having changed every expansion in pursuit of some random idea or being top dps. Dark Arts was conceptually sound it just needed to be worked out and not affect offensive ogcds to avoid double weaving (yet ironically that happens more now). If DA only affected combo gcds and maybe one or two defensive cds it would have worked. SB was the last time DRK matched WAR in terms of utility, damage and tankiness.
DA could have been the polar opposite to WAR's Infuriate. Both acting as their respective jobs "identity" and their tool kits revolving around it. WAR's Infuriate and later IR are iconic but DRK lost DA (which was an amazing animation). The only thing DRK has retained is that it has the most options when it comes to aoes, having access to line, ground, target and circle. Probably the only thing consistent about the job's tool kit. Rather than trying to remove WAR's skills maybe they should focus on making the other jobs have quirks like this. -
07-11-2023, 03:38 PMOizen
Yeah I don't want these tools removed from WAR, I think its cool WAR has them actually.
I just want similar cool stuff for the other Tanks. Not mindblowing buffs, just nice flavors on their abilities too, small stuff thats fun to optimize but not super impactful could go a long way to get rid of some of the homogenization.
(except nascent flash that should probably be re-evaluated) -
07-11-2023, 04:26 PMLythIt comes down to consistency, really. WAR has developed a reputation for preferential treatment from the devs over the past 10 years. If you want to overturn that reputation, you need to make a strong commitment to fairness towards your co-tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
To achieve this, there needs to be a consistent design philosophy. Actions like Shield Swipe were removed because the devs supposedly didn't want tanks to be forced into an MT role. Yet we have Vengeance preserved on WAR. If the damage is insignificant, then removing the effect costs you nothing in the name of fairness. Alternatively, if you want the effect to stay for flavor reasons, then you should have no objection to seeing unique flavor counterparts on every tank. Perhaps PLD gains a free swiftcast proc. Perhaps DRK gains some MP. Perhaps GNB shaves some time off of a recast. None of these take away from WAR's identity in any way. But don't block both.
A frequent deflection that came up through Heavensward and Stormblood was that WAR was simply a 'better designed' tank. Yet when the playerbase demands parity, you see the same circular excuses come up. 'Oh, but you can't have unique buffs to your jobs, because...' You can't have it both ways, and there's a growing resentment in the community around it. Either give up the special treatment, or support unique equivalents on all the other tanks. I really don't mind which route you pick, as long as it is consistent and fair across all tanks as a whole. -
07-15-2023, 06:37 PMMekhana
Abyssal Drain would be available earlier than 50 and heal more single target
Dark Missionary would be available up to 70 and raid regen
Shadow Wall would do tick damage
Oblation would also apply a small shield amount or heal the target slightly based on dps
Any issues and concerns with DRK would be fixed in months instead of years. -
07-23-2023, 02:54 AMMarxamThat's really the crux of the argument. I can't speak for if WAR actually does get preferential treatment but currently it seems like their design philosophy is just to buff the dmg from the weakest tanks currently to match the highest tank since expansion. Like I said, DRK has always changed and the only consistent thing about it is that its an ogcd spammer which is something not unique to DRK or tanks in general as other jobs in other roles have that same game mechanic of high apm. WAR only seems to get preferential treatment because it is the most consistent and thus is much "easier" for them to focus on the execution of the idea rather than just implementing ideas on paper ex, enhanced Unmend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I honestly believe it's as simple as making WAR and DRK both ehp focused tanks with the former emphasizing healing and the latter emphasizing shielding. Once you have that core design you can then add other skills to supplement that. I'm surprised they haven't capitalized on DRK's shield concept since TBN was introduced in 4.0. WAR got NF then BW, a trait to Equilibrium, ToB and SiO to supplement WAR's identity as a self healing tank while providing synergy. All DRK got since 4.0 was oblation. There's so much potential for DRK's shielding.
A DA buffed TBN that damages nearby enemies and a small heal when shield breaks. A potency shield to compliment TBN's HP% shield. A ground aoe that applies TBN's effect for one person to stand in. A Haima like shield for smaller hits and dot or extended dmg like p10s HH.
These are just examples of what DRK should have had by now to supplement and capitalize on TBN but all we got were dmg ogcds. If they focused on that I'm sure we would have been in a different place with the tanks -
07-23-2023, 04:05 PMLyth
The core issue isn't really the dps balance, because that can be changed on a whim. It has to do with the number of beneficial effects attached to a given action. Consider the following:
- Grants 3 stacks of Delirium, each stack allowing the execution of Quietus or Bloodspiller without Blackblood cost, restoring MP when landing either weaponskill.
- Grants 3 stacks of Inner Release, each stack allowing the use of Fell Cleave or Decimate without cost and guaranteeing they are critical and direct hits. Increases damage dealt when under an effect that raises critical hit rate or direct hit rate. Grants Inner Strength, nullifying Stun, Sleep, Bind, Heavy, and most knockback and draw-in effects. Extends Surging Tempest duration by 10s to a maximum of 60s. Grants Primal Rend Ready.
These two actions are supposedly analogous. Or take this for example:- Reduces magic damage taken by self and nearby party members by 10%.
- Creates a barrier around self and all nearby party members that absorbs damage totaling 15% of maximum HP. Dispels Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, and Bloodwhetting, increasing damage absorbed by 2% for each effect removed. Gradually restores HP. Restores target's HP.
The core difference in design philosophy is what happens when you press a button. In most jobs, just one thing happens. On WAR, it loads you up with additional beneficial effects every time you press a button. This has nothing to do with execution or gameplay.
Even in points where WAR was doing less damage than others this expansion (by an overwhelming 50-100 rDPS), it remained one of the most popular tanks simply because of this. You don't have to be good. The job will carry you. And that's fine, given that it's probably one of the first tanks that players are exposed to. You just need ways of replicating all of these bonus effects on other tanks at least through skilled play, even if they're not baked in passive bonuses like they are for WAR. -
07-23-2023, 04:14 PMSupersnow845
I know a lot of this is tailored to some of WAR’s advantageous effects in savage over the other tanks but I really don’t like the idea of “don’t nerf WAR add to the other 3” because WAR basically already does a healers job in anything below extreme
If I pop into an expert on a healer and see a WAR my job has just been rendered completely useless, I would have been better off being able to swap to a third DPS
So on that front I’m actually in favour of nerfing WAR; not just making all 4 tanks basically unkillable machines that don’t need a healer -
07-23-2023, 06:16 PMEorzean_usernameThis is an ongoing trend in MMORPG design (WOW has been the same way for a long time, and only quintupled-down on the idea in the newest expansion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Basically, this is the result of something like... "Healers are the only people who really enjoy it when players have to rely on Healers to survive, and Tanks especially hate it."
(Obviously, all generalisations are generalisations, etc blah blah but... "in general"...)
The idea that a Tank can play "perfectly", but still splatter into a smear on the floor just because they get paired with an inexperienced Healer — maybe this worked in an era where almost all content was manually-recruited, and you just ran with your friends and buddies.
But in the modern, paradoxically "antisocial" MMORPG design, where you only know other people for ~20-40 minutes, and then never see them again... Tanks relying on today's mystery surprise Healer to be equally-skilled in order for the Tank to survive creates a lot of frustration and friction.
So, the newer trend is that Tanks are just "immortal" if they play correctly, and the Healer focuses on keeping everyone else alive through all the intermittent mechanical damage, or stray errors.
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Given that, it's not really surprising to see XIV moving in the same direction.
The problem, however, is that XIV does not seem to be comfortable with the idea of producing actual, threatening damage to the entire party, or random people, or etc — especially not at the pace which would be necessary to actually outgun the vomit of OGCD tools that Healers have become saturated with, or the MP supply that Healers are basically drowning in under normal circumstances as a result.
So while in, eg, WOW, if the Tank is self-sufficient, the Healer still has plenty to do (many would even say "way too much to do"), in XIV, as soon as the Tank stops needing attention, Healers just have nearly nothing to do at all besides twiddle their thumbs or spam 1 button.
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Thus again I think this all comes back to XIV being hyper-afraid to take risks that might upset people — eg: "Well if all Tanks are self-sufficient, then maybe it's okay for trash mobs to deal unavoidable roomwide pulses of severe damage to the entire party, and randomly smack DPS with tankbusters, and..." etc...
Like — everything always comes down to: "Oh, but what if X Tank or Y Healer didn't understand that, and their party wiped, or someone unexpectedly KO'd, and then they felt bad, and became stressed—?"
...And then the design evolution just stops cold, and gets abandoned back to the status quo. -
07-23-2023, 07:30 PMGoatOfWar''Shadow wallQuote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Grants a 300 potency cure, 800 potency shield any time you deal damage and 300 potency regeneration for 30 seconds to everyone around you. Also, grants a damage reflect, guaranteed direct crits and a 10% damage increase, on top of that prevents the player from being crowd controlled. Also cures cancer. 60 seconds cooldown''
Warrior is beyond stupid, i'd rather not have them design the other tanks around the stupidest tank in the game. It does everything, and is the best at everything.
The balance team needs to stop listening to streamers and their fanbase, and should start nerfing Warrior. All tanks should have certain shortcomings unique to them where others can fill the gaps.
Warrior being able to do everything should not be the norm.