Tanks are at their most fun when you can solo certain old Extremes and Savage Raids

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

I don't miss the "Tank should've use the STR accessories with VIT melds" thing back in ARR till SB to be honest...

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It was mostly a HW thing, I dont think it was common in ARR, at least I didn't hear of it back then.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

As much as it feels unfair to healers, being able to survive without a healer's help feels really good.

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For the TANK, sure, because...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There's a reason people get so excited at WAR+3 dps dungeon runs. Because it is, actually, fun.

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...is the problem.

Basically, we have a Trinity game where Tanks are ALSO Healers, meaning Healers have no place in normal content, only in hard mode stuff. Which feels bad for the Healers and is bad for the game.

I do agree Tanks should be masters of protection and mitigation - not of HEALING, too. IMO, it'd be cool if we took most of the DPSers mitigations and gave them to the Tanks, but stripped Tanks of any party heals. They can have their self-sustains, but they shouldn't be healing up the entire party on the side. Stuff like Intervention or Cover or Passage of Arms are good, stuff like Nascent Flash or Shake It Off are not. DRK gets it - it has TBN and Oblation it can put on party members, but those things reduce the damage they take, they don't act as heals.

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I disagree with Valkyrie about 2.0 being the best and it all downhill from there. I strongly disagree with that.

But there's so much healing on non-Healers and so much mitigation on everyone (except WHM) in Meleewalker that it's just absurd. Go look in the Healer subforum here and see how they feel about WAR+3 DPS runs. To give you a hint, "jaded" or "salty" don't even begin to describe it. Same on Reddit. In both places, I've gotten demolished for suggesting that Healers are at all okay in this game, with the very reason they site being Tank + 3 DPS runs being the optimal way to run content and 8 mans only needing 1 (or sometimes 0) Healers.

While I don't think things are as dire as they do...they're absolutely RIGHT about Healers being devalued in the current content model. And a big part of that is Tanks have so much HEALING and DPS have so much healing and also mitigation that it's breaking the Trinity.

Would it be fun for Healers if they had Taunt, a slate of mitigation abilities that let them eat tankbusters for breakfast, and outdamaged SAMs and BLMs?

Probably.

But would it be good for the game if 4 mans were routinely Healer + 3 DPS and 8 mans were frequently done with 0 Tanks, even Ultimates?

Probably not.

Put yourselves in the other role's shoes and then ask yourself how you'd feel if it was your role that was completely redundant and unneeded in general content and the optimal way to clear 4 mans was without your role in them.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I do agree Tanks should be masters of protection and mitigation - not of HEALING, too.

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In the same way, healers should not be able to mitigate (ie. we should not have barrier healers, that's literally the job of tanks to protect the party). But we do. Tanks and healers have always been stepping on eachother's toes and that has only grown.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In the same way, healers should not be able to mitigate (ie. we should not have barrier healers, that's literally the job of tanks to protect the party). But we do. Tanks and healers have always been stepping on eachother's toes and that has only grown.

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"masters of".

Tanks should have some self-sustain (as they do), PLD specifically have some healing (as it does owing to the general class thing of PLD having some limited White Magic), and Healers should have mitigations (but not as many nor as powerful as Tanks).

Strictly speaking, most Trinity systems don't have Tanks with party mitigation - their mitigation suite is personal protection with them keeping agro. But I personally don't mind them having the lion's share of mitigation. Before coming to Healers to steal theirs (WHM literally has only one - Temperance - on a 2 min CD), you might steal what the DPSers have first.

HOWEVER: Healers having mitigation doesn't put Tanks out of a job. No one's doing 1 Healer + 3 DPS runs of 4 mans because the Healers are mitigating so much the party doesn't need a Tank. The irony is, this is somewhat possible, but no one does it because it's not efficient or as braindead easy, and Tanks do more damage as well as sufficient healing and mitigation.

Tanks do way too much healing, possibly too much DPS (fun fact: In HW, Tank Jobs did less damage than Healer Jobs, the reverse of today), and also have powerful mitigation for both themselves and the party.

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In any case, the issue comes when you're a one-man army rendering other parts of the Trinity irrelevant. That's the issue. Again, Healers aren't taking Tanks' jobs, but the reverse is increasingly true.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

HOWEVER: Healers having mitigation doesn't put Tanks out of a job. No one's doing 1 Healer + 3 DPS runs of 4 mans because the Healers are mitigating so much the party doesn't need a Tank. The irony is, this is somewhat possible, but no one does it because it's not efficient or as braindead easy, and Tanks do more damage as well as sufficient healing and mitigation.

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It is indeed. When there isn't a tank I just shield the DPS and start fighting (or can you believe, sometimes I am doing the most damage as a healer and have to shield myself!).

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Tanks do way too much healing, possibly too much DPS (fun fact: In HW, Tank Jobs did less damage than Healer Jobs, the reverse of today), and also have powerful mitigation for both themselves and the party.

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We did try pretty hard as tanks to do a lot of damage. Wearing DPS accessories, melding Strength, dropping tank stance all the time, we were relentless in our pursuit of DPS so SE just gave way.

I do want to feel, as a tank, like I'm doing meaningful damage that I can notice nudging a boss' healthbar so I'm content with where they are now. Obviously it shouldn't be as much as DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In the same way, healers should not be able to mitigate (ie. we should not have barrier healers, that's literally the job of tanks to protect the party). But we do. Tanks and healers have always been stepping on each other's toes and that has only grown.

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Preventing damage is literally the same thing as healing. . . otherwise healer shielding wouldn't exist.

It's a concept called "effective hit points".

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I disagree, I had the most fun when tanks were actually tanks, and not dps who can heal and take lots of incoming damage.



They've really ruined the role for me. It was at its best in 2.0 honestly. It's gone downhill from there.

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Pretty sure that was never a thing.

Tanks always prioritized DPS with their gear, rotation, materia, etcetera.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It was mostly a HW thing, I dont think it was common in ARR, at least I didn't hear of it back then.

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It was absolutely a thing even in ARR, it was just less common because frankly, most people back then had no idea what they were doing. You had tanks in ARR actually believe that stacking parry was a good idea.
HW was where the strength accessories really kicked off, at first out of necessity and slowly people realized that you really didn't need all that much HP to survive tank mechanics.

By Stormblood it was common for tanks to use crafted accessories with strength melds for the entire raid tier, because you simply never needed more vit.

And I actually kind of liked not having to worry about accessory upgrades until the next raid tier.

Fun? Meh. Profitable? Yes.

If you're a war you can do this with just about any content when the healer dies, barring the current expansion's end-game duties.

Just don't do it when you're in a party unless the thing is nearly dead. :') Nobody wants to wait 10-15 minutes to watch the war slowly murder a thing. Sorta why I don't entirely hate the concept of an enrage after a set amount of time.